The Hoare Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, The Snow Bear said: No but honourable people might expect honour in others (especially in those who have strong bonds to their wifes). Honourable people might also try to save the lives of children. Furthermore honourable people might find it rather dishonourable to attempt a coup d'etat while the king (and ones childhood friend) lay one his deathbed Eddard know very well that the south was a nest of vipers, that's one of the reasons he didn't wanted to go south. Expecting honour from others is not honourable, just stupid. The best he could do was try to stop Robert's fury, but telling his plans was pointless. He tried a coup d'etat soon after the King died, but with Baelish help and not with Renly's help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estermonty python Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 On 1/16/2017 at 5:37 AM, devilish said: b- As second son, he was programmed to always know his place, to obey orders, to show absolute loyalty to his big bro and to let matters that require decision making to his brother. When Rickard and Brandon died, Ned replaced them with Robert This is so interesting to me. The role of the second son is SO important to this story, from Ned to Stannis to Victarion. Even Jon and Jaime exhibit much of this mindset as it relates to Robb and Cersei, respectively. At the same time, there's a certain freedom and rebellious streak we see in younger siblings like Oberyn and Loras, who don't have the burden of rule (or future rule). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philokles Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 2 hours ago, The Snow Bear said: This whole debate seems a little too post hoc to me. We as readers know what happened (and what will happen), but look at the thing from Neds point of view. His daughter had been missing a whole day. Now she's back - what should set him in a state of relief and anger in the same time - and babbles a story of monsters, pregnant princesses and a hand that was killed. Remember that Aryas credibility had already been weakened by the Joffrey incident and her being gone for hours. Why should Ned expect any else but the figments of Aryas overflowing imagination? If you think about it, how probable was it, that Arya actually would find the way into a secret tunnel were she could overhear the two people who (possibly) conspired against her father. Why so? I agree generally that GRRM added as many elements to make Arya's story unbelievable as possible, in order to prevent Ned from gaining some insight that would hinder the plot, but I don't see how the Joffrey incident contributes to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywater-Watch Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said: Why so? I agree generally that GRRM added as many elements to make Arya's story unbelievable as possible, in order to prevent Ned from gaining some insight that would hinder the plot, but I don't see how the Joffrey incident contributes to that. I agree. Ned knew that Arya told the truth about the incidient with Joffrey and Mycah in the Riverlands. He had precisely the same account from Sansa the evening of the incident itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 3 hours ago, The Snow Bear said: We as readers know what happened (and what will happen), but look at the thing from Neds point of view. His daughter had been missing a whole day. Now she's back - what should set him in a state of relief and anger in the same time - and babbles a story of monsters, pregnant princesses and a hand that was killed. Remember that Aryas credibility had already been weakened by the Joffrey incident and her being gone for hours. Why should Ned expect any else but the figments of Aryas overflowing imagination? If you think about it, how probable was it, that Arya actually would find the way into a secret tunnel were she could overhear the two people who (possibly) conspired against her father. This reasoning makes no sense at all. For one, Arya was factually correct in regards with the Joffrey incident and most importantly, Ned is completely aware of it thus it cannot, by no means, undermine her credibility. On the contrary, what the particular incident demonstrated is that his daughter is indeed willing and capable of getting into trouble that is unusual for girls in her age. One of Ned's first orders when they arrived to the Red Keep was that Arya is not supposed to go exploring if you recall, which strongly indicates that Ned has, at least, some inkling of his daughter's habbits that could make it possible that she, indeed, found one of the secret passages by chance. And finally, she was missing and she was brought to him from outside the castle when nobody noticed her getting out so there must be an explanation about that, at least, and it's not like anyone else came with an alternative. Also, Arya was not known to lie as a child. Yes, she has many common traits with Egg (from the Dunk & Egg novels) but this is not one of them. I think you may be confusing them a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Mormont Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 While we do not see any direct response by Ned based on Arya's story, within a day, he resigns as Hand and starts preparing to leave Kings Landing. I'm not sure what more he would have or could have done if he had listened to Arya's story any more carefully. As previously noted, Yoren showing up immediately after Arya is found sends everything into overdrive and he never has the chance to "talk later" to Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxine Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 5 hours ago, The Snow Bear said: This whole debate seems a little too post hoc to me. We as readers know what happened (and what will happen), but look at the thing from Neds point of view. His daughter had been missing a whole day. Now she's back - what should set him in a state of relief and anger in the same time - and babbles a story of monsters, pregnant princesses and a hand that was killed. Remember that Aryas credibility had already been weakened by the Joffrey incident and her being gone for hours. Why should Ned expect any else but the figments of Aryas overflowing imagination? If you think about it, how probable was it, that Arya actually would find the way into a secret tunnel were she could overhear the two people who (possibly) conspired against her father. I understand a lot of things are hindsight being 20/20 but I don't think this is one of them considering the context Ned has. Considering what Ned knew & what he learned shortly after the two particular statements I mentioned in the OP should've meant something to him. Also Arya shouldn't have lost credibility with Ned bc he knew the truth of what really happened and knew Arya was telling the truth about Joffrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I think Ned was essentially distracted by other things. He had been worried all day about Arya's whereabouts, and then he gets a wild and incoherent tale from her. Immediately after, he is informed that his wife has taken Tyrion captive, which likely consumed all his attention. It is quite possible that he did not remember the specific details of what Arya told him. Unlike us, he doesn't have the luxury of going back and rereading what he has been told. He has to rely on memory. Not to mention lots of shit is starting to happen, which probably pushed what Arya had said even further into the background of his mind. I think I'll give him a pass on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 As many others have already said, I think he was essentially distracted by so much that the tale spun up by a wild and rebellious daughter would initially just be passed off as a tale to get out of trouble and given the pressures he was under he was probably just relieved that she was safe and didn't really listen. First of all he's having to deal with the investigation into his foster father's suspected murder on top of his very distracting everyday duties as Hand, he's playing political games with the Small Council that he's completely unsuited for and his son was nearly assassinated twice not that long ago. Then his daughter goes missing for a whole day and when she comes back she spins a story about wizards and monsters plotting against Ned. With everything else that's going on; and given Arya's nature and character; he's going to dismiss this. To everyone who says Arya's words should have clicked with Ned remember he didn't know about Dany being pregnant until later. Given that his conversation with Arya is interrupted by Yoren telling him about Cat taking Tyrion, this was likely just forgotten about. He likely didn't take notice of the mention of the bastard, because they're everywhere in the city and it's common knowledge that Robert has bastard sons, even if their identities are a bit less known. As for the mention of one hand dying; maybe those words did spark his interest. Remember, that chapter was, I believe, told from Arya's POV so we don't hear Ned's thoughts on the matter and as stated previously he was interrupted by Yoren at this point. Furthermore, a point I think many have forgotten, is that not long after this conversation takes place, Ned is attacked by Jaime and his men and ends up seriously injured and on Milk of the Poppy. One conversation with his rebellious daughter that to any parent would seem like the child trying to avoid trouble is not going to stick in his head through all of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 9 hours ago, The Hoare said: Eddard know very well that the south was a nest of vipers, that's one of the reasons he didn't wanted to go south. Expecting honour from others is not honourable, just stupid. The best he could do was try to stop Robert's fury, but telling his plans was pointless. He tried a coup d'etat soon after the King died, but with Baelish help and not with Renly's help. He knew he was walking into a nest of vipers, yes. It's why he didn't trust Varys. He did however trust Littlefinger. And you can say he was stupid for it all you want, but we have the benefit of hindsight and knowing how that arc turns out. Ned doesn't. When I first read it I wasn't expecting LittlefingerSo him trusting the helpful childhood friend of his wife isn't unreasonable with the information he had. Expecting honour from others isn't necessarily stupid but rather idealistic. If he knew for certain that he wouldn't be able to protect those kids from Robert then warning Cersei to get them away would have been the only way. Again, knowing how the book turns out allows us to say it was a mistake but at the time Ned believed Cersei to have no way out left. Ned's coup was under different circumstances to what Renly wanted. Renly wanted Ned to storm the Red Keep while Robert was on his deathbed, slay anyone who stood in their way and drag frightened children from their beds to use as hostages, all so he (the youngest brother) could sit on the throne. That was the cost of Renly's help. Ned on the other hand waited until Robert was dead so as to not dishonor his final hours, his intention was to seat the rightful King on the throne and he tried to do it peacefully first. It was Cersei and the Lannister's who drew their swords first, remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Shrike Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Ned seems heroically stupid, yes. I agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern_Star Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I wouldn't call him stupid. When I come home from a stressful day at work, my mind still tries to solve problems occurred during the day. That can lead to me not paying alot of attention to other things including conversations. Every now and again I find myself facing an angry Girlfriend because I ask about a certain detail in the conversation. And she will ask me if I was listening at all and that she has been mentioning this 3 times in the last 5 minutes. Renly wasn't in line for the throne, siding with him would have been treason, nothing Honorable Ned would ever do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said: He knew he was walking into a nest of vipers, yes. It's why he didn't trust Varys. He did however trust Littlefinger. And you can say he was stupid for it all you want, but we have the benefit of hindsight and knowing how that arc turns out. Ned doesn't. When I first read it I wasn't expecting LittlefingerSo him trusting the helpful childhood friend of his wife isn't unreasonable with the information he had. Expecting honour from others isn't necessarily stupid but rather idealistic. If he knew for certain that he wouldn't be able to protect those kids from Robert then warning Cersei to get them away would have been the only way. Again, knowing how the book turns out allows us to say it was a mistake but at the time Ned believed Cersei to have no way out left. Ned's coup was under different circumstances to what Renly wanted. Renly wanted Ned to storm the Red Keep while Robert was on his deathbed, slay anyone who stood in their way and drag frightened children from their beds to use as hostages, all so he (the youngest brother) could sit on the throne. That was the cost of Renly's help. Ned on the other hand waited until Robert was dead so as to not dishonor his final hours, his intention was to seat the rightful King on the throne and he tried to do it peacefully first. It was Cersei and the Lannister's who drew their swords first, remember. "We must get Joffery away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will dare not oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffery your ward." That's odd nothing about storming, or slaying or Renly sitting the throne. Almost sounds like a guy who knows the game...and more importantly knows how the Lannisters play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 5 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said: "We must get Joffery away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will dare not oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffery your ward." That's odd nothing about storming, or slaying or Renly sitting the throne. Almost sounds like a guy who knows the game...and more importantly knows how the Lannisters play it. It's implied. How else are the going to get Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella? Considering the Queen has a fairly sizable household guard in the Keep it's pretty obvious that there would be fighting involved. As to Renly sitting the throne, I've gone back to the chapter and that was my mistake. It was never mentioned and was just my memory being incorrect; probably influenced by the knowledge that he later declares himself King. So I was wrong on that count. I never said Renly's offer wasn't smart. Ned definitely should have taken it. I'm merely pointing out that the circumstances of Ned and Renly's attempts of a coup were different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I always simply assumed that he took the information on but there simply isn't much he can do about it. He already suspects that Jon Arryn was murdered and knows that both he and the king are in danger he's not going to confirm this to his young daughter. Then of course events transpire that overshadow this incident. "Yes Arya you're right, I also suspect that I'm about to be murdered, good job confirming it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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