Is it confirmed Brandon never had sons

[Lady Blizzardborn]

7 minutes ago, Quellon said:

Didn't mean that either but that because he is one, we cannot know for sure when he was born exactly.

I don't think that's why we can't be sure (some bastards' births must be recorded, just maybe not in the family's copy of The Seven-Pointed Star), but GRRM has definitely kept things fuzzy to an extent. Still when he's told us when Dany was born and said Jon was born 8-9 months earlier, there's considerably less wiggle room than some think. 

We'll all find out eventually...we hope.;)

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I appreciate your concern, you just need to take it up with the author, not me.  It's Eddard's POV establishing that the war had raged for close to a year prior to the Sack.  

My point exactly. This theory is at odds with the established facts.

If a theory is at odds with the frame provided by the author - you think it's the author I have a problem with? I thought I expressed myself straight enough.

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And you can't say that there aren't some nagging hints about Jon being the product of incest.  Kingsmonkey brought up quite a few in his thread, and I added a few here.  

OK, let's have at it...

On 23.02.2017 at 10:26 PM, Frey family reunion said:

As for Jon being the product of incest, we have Jon's very Starklike appearance. I know that its not dispositive, and we have other examples of "mixed" ethnicities strongly taking after one side, but it's definitely a factor to consider.  Jon looks very much like a Stark and not much like anything else.

So does Arya.

The children of Prince Rhaegar, were binary as well: Aegon looked totes Targaryen, Rhaenys was definitely a Martell.

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Then we have Brandon's very strong reaction to Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna, much stronger than the normally hotheaded (and drunken) Robert Baratheon, Lyanna's betrothed.  There is a very familiar scene detailing a tourney and the crowning of a Queen of Love and Beauty, in the book Ivanhoe.  The mystery knight crowns the object of his desire and her family (foster family in that case) are actually very pleased with the honor bestowed on their ward/foster daughter, but the person they betrothed her to becomes very jealous of the mystery knight.

Let me correct you: both Cedric and Athelstane applauded the crowning: "They then repeated their cry of Largesse, to which Cedric, in the height of his joy, replied by an ample donative, and to which Athelstane, though less promptly, added one equally large". Later, as the omniscient narrator was kind enough to explain, Athelstane was angry at Cedric, not at the Desdichado.

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Here, while it's Lyanna's brother that takes the greatest offense.  Perhaps Brandon knew about the Bael tale and Robert didn't, so that could explain it, or perhaps Brandon was possessive of Lyanna to an unhealthy degree.

We have Ned's comments on the wildness in Lyanna and Brandon that led to their death, and Lady Dustin's comment about Brandon loving the sight of blood on his sword.

Or Brandon is a stereotypical big brother, who sees - in his eyes - a married dude hitting on his sister. Who was already engaged to someone else. Family honor.

And the leap from "likes to screw around" to "is into his sister" is enormous.

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I also have the nagging feeling that Ned is suppressing something about the circumstances behind Lyanna's death and her promises. 

And I have a nagging feeling that Tyrion is somewhat shorter than an average man of his age...

Of course Ned is suppressing something, of course something haunts him and pains him fifteen years later, it's all spelled in letters seven hundred feet tall. I don't think anybody missed it.

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In his POV's he continues to echo her pleas, but something stops him from going further in his thoughts.  He completely blacks out a portion of her death, he was told that Howland took Lyanna's hand from his but he remembered none of it.  He has nightmares about Lyanna's promises, and doesn't understand why he's dreaming about it.  At one point the dream/memory of it makes him think that he's going mad. There are some serious negative emotions happening here, that seem beyond his sister dying in childbirth. After all in that day and time, a death by childbirth isn't completely unusual.

Witnessing one's own teenage sister dying, however, can be just a little bit traumatic (even if some maester would later show him an actuary table with childbirth death figures). That as the cherry on top of a little intense year, crowned with seeing his five close friends slain mere hours before.

 

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If Jon was the product of rape and incest, it might explain the true nature of the promise that Lyanna tried to elicit from Ned.

And if the teapot orbited the Sun somewhere between Earth and Mars, that would be in accordance with Newtonian physics, but I'd like to see evidence consisting of something more tangible than that "if".

 

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And finally we have this tidbit from the Princess and the Queen:

The only other child referred specifically to as "monster" is Gilly's babe, the product of an incestuous relationship.

Not quite. The only other child referred specifically to as "monster" seriously and with malice is Shireen Baratheon: "Highborn ladies fornicate with fools and give birth to monsters!". And both the agitator in King's Landing and the narrator of TPATQ are dead serious and literal (Gyldayn even adds, to avoid misunderstandings: "she proved indeed a monster: a stillborn girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been and a stubby, scaled tail").

Conversely, with Dalla's baby it was with playfulness and affection: "He is a sweet little monster.” “Monster?” “His milk name. I had to call him something".

So if there are any monstrous parallels, we should seek them between Visenya and Shireen (who, BTW, was not a child of incest), not between Visenya and Dalla's "monster".

All in all, I feel very comfortable when writing off the Brandon theory as completely unfounded.

[Shi Qiang]

Brandon bedded many ladies.  He's got an equal chance of fathering a boy.  One could easily be Jon Snow himself.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

58 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

Brandon bedded many ladies.  He's got an equal chance of fathering a boy.  One could easily be Jon Snow himself.

Didn't read the thread, did you?

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

49 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

Brandon bedded many ladies.  He's got an equal chance of fathering a boy.  One could easily be Jon Snow himself.

Easily? There is no textual evidence, only some really reaching crackpottery that doesn't make much sense. Why would Ned have to hide the paternity of Brandon's son, be he legitimate or bastard born? Robert didn't hate Brandon, and Brandon didn't abscond with Lyanna. We are shown through Robert's actions towards Daenerys, and reaction/acceptance to the bloody oath of fealty of Tywin in the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon, that Ned made the right choice in thinking he had to keep Jon's parentage a secret, even at the cost of his precious honor and creating domestic problems with his wife. There is no other feasible reason why Ned would go through all that if Rhaegar is not Jon's father and he didn't have a real and justified fear about what Robert would do to the child if that were ever to be revealed. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, Allardyce said:

Brandon bedded many ladies.  He's got an equal chance of fathering a boy.  One could easily be Jon Snow himself.

If by easily you mean being pregnant for more than a year.

17 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Didn't read the thread, did you?

I will take a wild guess and say no.

[Aegon VII]

On February 19, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I do believe that there is a Snow Sand baby, a Ned-Ashara and her name is Allyria.

Excellent, allyria is actually the person I wanted to throw out next as a possible spawn of Brandon. If I can ask, what makes you like her as Ned's and could you see Brandon being her father instead?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Excellent, allyria is actually the person I wanted to throw out next as a possible spawn of Brandon. If I can ask, what makes you like her as Ned's and could you see Brandon being her father instead?

Because I don't believe that Brandon was an jerk that would had sex with the woman his brother liked and because I believe that Ashara is one of his broken promises.

[St Daga]

On 2/18/2017 at 6:46 AM, Steelshanks Walton said:

There is a theory that Jon Snow is actually the son of Lyanna Stark and her brother Brandon Stark.  They spent a lot of time together riding out in the hills.  Brandon is a womanizer with an always ready prod and Lyanna is not one to respect tradition nor roles.  It would fit the theme of Ice and Fire for the ice side to also have their own controlled breeding program.  The Targaryens, Starks, and Lannisters are the main families in this tale.  The Targaryens practiced brother-sister intercourse.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister engage in brother-sister intercourse.  Why not the Starks?  It would have a nice symmetry to the plot. 

I think the idea of a Stark/Stark child is very interesting. I think that the contrasts and parallel's with the Stark and Lannister families make it a very real possibility that GRRM could take the story that way. Oh, you think the Lannisters are to be reviled for incest? So, what if we throw incest at you with our beloved Stark family? Many people hate this idea, but I think it has a lot of merit.

On 2/18/2017 at 7:34 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Q: There seem to be Lannisters and Freys under every rock, while the Starks are very scarce. Does Ned not have any distant relatives who could reclaim Winterfell?

A: ~~~It's true that in recent times, the Starks have become quite scarce. There's not many of them in the present generatons. Some may say it's because Ned's siblings died. Brandon died before he had sons, and Lyanna is also dead, and Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either. It might also have to do with their father, Rickard, who was an only son and I'd have to go back to my notes to see why he was the only child -- and really, I'm speaking from memory, so that may not be quite right. At home I have my notecards, my family trees where I keep this information, because unlike some other people I can't remember everything.~~~ (notice how GRRM does not say Lyanna did not leave behind a child )

 

On 2/18/2017 at 7:34 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Q: In A Dance with Dragons, we learn more about Brandon Stark and his interest in women, similar to Robert's. Did Brandon have any bastards as well?

A: It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.

Always nice to have GRRM's own statements to help us out, but I think he is as misdirecting in interviews as he is in text. A tricksy bird! Technically, one could say that Brandon could have died prior to his son being born, and then this statement could still be true. I don't think that is the case,however, but it depends on how the statement is interpreted.  If Brandon did die before an illegitimate son was born, that child would still be considered a Snow. I am more inclined to think that Brandon had bastard daughters, although I wonder about Domeric Bolton possibly being his child.

On 2/18/2017 at 7:53 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Starks. No, Just no because it is said time and again by people from the north and with knowledge of the north that incest, or controlled breeding as you call it, is an abomination. Actually, it is described as an abomination against all the gods old and new.

We have only Catelyn and Ygritte telling us that incest is an abomination. Two opinions doesn't make it true for every house in the north or in the many wilding groups. I think it leaves a possibility open regarding incest in the Stark family. I don't think GRRM closes many door's completely. 

On 2/18/2017 at 9:14 PM, Kingmonkey said:

 

On 2/18/2017 at 6:46 AM, Steelshanks Walton said:

The Targaryens practiced brother-sister intercourse.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister engage in brother-sister intercourse.  Why not the Starks?  It would have a nice symmetry to the plot. 

Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow 

Although I'm not a believer, it's fun to play devil's advocate and I explored the possibility of Starkcest here:

While I still favour RLJ, there are actually some pretty compelling arguments for Starkcest. Brandon not so much, because it's hard to find a timeline fit that doesn't have him being dead at the time. 

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This making Jon the legitimate heir to Winterfell.  The theory goes Ned usurped the line of inheritance in order to take Winterfell for his own family.  

This however we can safely dismiss, because if Jon were the son of Brandon and Lyanna, he would not be legitimate. 

 

 

Ah, Kingmonkey, as I mentioned on LH, your theory on S+L=J was nicely done. I had previously avoided the Starkcest idea's, but once, I peaked into it, it really gave me a lot to think about. I also much appreciated your humor in regards to a subject that is a bit tough to want to think about.  I had felt like RLJ was probably the answer until recently, but it never felt quite right to me. I was no where near the 100% some people seem to feel about it. Seems too expected, I guess! It seemed pretty obvious after my first read of aGoT after watching Season 1 that RLJ was a strong possibility. But the more times I have reread the series, and see how deep GRRM's writing is, the more I began to doubt. 

Your theory proposes Benjen as the guilty Stark brother, and many people seem to think it fit's Brandons "wolf blood". I personally think if this theory pans out, it's Ned. The quiet wolf. Always watch out for the quiet ones, I have learned in life. Ned was "the quiet wolf", Jon has the quiet wolf. I don't think that is a coincidence. 

People seem to get so upset about this Stark incest idea, but honestly, it is just a fictional story set in a fantasy world. The real world doesn't apply, and the story can go down a dark, twisty path, with things that don't fit our modern world, and we all will manage to keep on living through it.

Also, I think no matter who Jon's parents are, I think he is a bastard born out of wedlock. People can and will disagree with that thought, and that is fine. We are all individuals with different interpretations of the same text. That is the brilliance of the writing that The George gives us!

On 2/19/2017 at 1:02 AM, Luddagain said:

I actually have a theory that the King of Winter must have Starkness twice - once from mum and once from dad - exactly as dragon riders need two drops.

I think the mother is the critical element to a lot of the magic.

This is a really nice idea! There is a reason the Stark kings stopped using the title King of Winter and started using King in the North, and maybe this is why. They moved away from incest! We know GRRM is not afraid of going down the incest path, and if he can do it with the Targaryens and Lannisters, he can do it with the Starks, whether people like it or not. I don't think GRRM cares what we like. He cares more about shocking us, and making us uncomfortable and making us think. The human heart in conflict with itself; the reader in conflict with accepted beliefs. 

On 2/19/2017 at 1:12 AM, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Being that most responders to this post are willing to at least entertain the idea that Brandon and Lyanna may have had incestial sex, which I find to be completely baseless, what do you's think about the possibility that Brandon had premarital sex with Cat, at or around the time that he dueled Littlefinger? Brandon was known to be no virgin, have extramarital sex, and prefer taking girls' virginity, and not be shy to take what he wants, appreciating the beautiful sight of his bloody "sword". With that said, would it be a stretch to think that he possibly had betrothed, but premarital, sex with Cat, before his death? Is that how Cat married a man that she didn't know and when she met him was dissappointed in his diminutive appearance and disposition, when campared to his fiery and more aesthetically pleasing older brother with more than a few drops of the wolf blood, with no hesitation, and almost a thankful appreciation of the union? Did Cat know she was already pregnant with Brandon's child when she married Ned? Is that how she knows that she was definitely with child on the first night of their marriage? Maybe because she already was? They made a son together, they made a king together, that first night. Instead of a bastard.

Well, Cat tells us in her thoughts about giving her maidenhood to Ned, and she thinks several times that they (she and Ned) made a king together when she thinks of Robb. Maidenhood vs maidenhead is worth arguing, and maybe Brandon and Cat did have sex and that is one of the reasons the shadow of Brandon affected Ned and Cat's marriage like the truth of Jon's mother. But I think that Robb is Ned's son, based on Cat's thoughts (though she could be deluding herself because I think she is fairly unstable). I think that the direwolves are a sign those kids were Ned's. Six pups in the snow, six children born of Ned's seed! I think it is implied that Benjen and Brandon could have had some bastard children, and those kids didn't get any magic direwolf pups!

On 2/19/2017 at 7:08 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Sigh...
No. A bastard son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne would be known to the world as a bastard son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne. There's no good reason for Ned to lie about it.

This is very true. And it is also one of the reason that I actually think Jon is Ned's biologic son. Ned claiming Jon as his bastard did not make life easier for Jon or Ned, so why do it, unless it was the truth? And I do understand the reasons put forth in the theories for RLJ, I just don't believe those to be convincing.

On 2/19/2017 at 2:42 PM, Frey family reunion said:

While not my favorite theory, I'm not willing to discount Brandon being Jon's father.  You would have to come to terms with Jon being born (and Lyanna dying) around the time of Rhaegar's death at the Trident, and it would have to be an unusually long pregnancy, stretching out to about a year.  Technically not impossible, although it would have certainly required a cesarean and it would have definitely resulted in the death of the mother.  

And while it sounds odd, it is pretty much the scenario which starts the Norse Volsunga saga, which has perhaps been referenced or paralleled elsewhere in the series.

Longest reported human pregnancy was 375 days, so over a year. Beulah Hunter delivered her daughter in 1945. Some people dispute this is true, but not the patient or her doctor. Maybe GRRM read about this and decided to toss the idea into his story!

On 2/19/2017 at 6:55 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Domeric Bolton...now that is a real possibility. He rode really well, and I seem to recall Brandon was known for his riding ability. Wouldn't it be something if Roose is mourning (in his way) a lost heir who wasn't even his kid? And that would also mean if Ramsay did kill him it wasn't kinslaying, but a re-emergence of the Bolton-Stark rivalry.

I love this idea and it has crossed my mind also. I think Domeric could very likely be Brandon's son. With either Bethany or Barbry, but I like the idea that he "bloodied his sword" with both Ryswell sisters. That Brandon was a wild wolf, after all! Maybe Roose suspected or knew, and that is why he decided to renew the Stark/Bolton hostilities.

On 2/23/2017 at 2:26 PM, Frey family reunion said:

As for Jon being the product of incest, we have Jon's very Starklike appearance.  I know that its not dispositive, and we have other examples of "mixed" ethnicities strongly taking after one side, but it's definitely a factor to consider.  Jon looks very much like a Stark and not much like anything else.

Jon very much looks like Ned.  Benjen's description (according to Jon) does not seem to indicate he looks much like Ned, and Cat didn't seem to think that Ned looked like a carbon copy of Brandon. So Ned looks like himself, and Jon looks like Ned. According to Tyrion, Jon has more of the north in him than his siblings. So if Ned and Catelyn's children are only half north, then the only thing Jon can be is full north. That does not mean he has to be Stark/Stark, but it does seem to indicate he is north/north!

On 2/23/2017 at 2:26 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I also have the nagging feeling that Ned is suppressing something about the circumstances behind Lyanna's death and her promises.  In his POV's he continues to echo her pleas, but something stops him from going further in his thoughts.  He completely blacks out a portion of her death, he was told that Howland took Lyanna's hand from his but he remembered none of it.  He has nightmares about Lyanna's promises, and doesn't understand why he's dreaming about it.  At one point the dream/memory of it makes him think that he's going mad.

It is certainly possible that Ned either can't remember or does not want to remember. Or it could be just that if Ned had more thoughts on the subject, then there would be no mystery for the reader and GRRM want's there to be a mystery.

20 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Well, I cannot disprove a teapot orbiting the Sun between Earth and Mars; nobody can. Doesn't mean the hypothetical teapot deserves any credit due an actual, valid theory.

There is a lot junk supposedly floating around in space. A tea pot in space is possible! Many things are possible in the world that GRRM created, and I think we need to always keep that in mind.

14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Oh, and Jon's eyes could end up being the key. We are never given the color, which is interesting considering that the Starks are known for grey eyes.

Never given the color for who's eyes? Do you mean Lyanna or Brandon, or even Rickard? Ned's are grey and Benjen's are blue-grey. Jon's are a grey so dark they are almost black. Lyanna's eyes are not described in the text and neither are Brandon's that I know of. Maybe that is the key we are missing to explain Jon's parentage. Lyanna is compared to Arya and Jon describes Arya's eyes as "dark eyes, like his". So does this mean that Arya and Jon have the same eye color? Maybe Lyanna had the grey eyes so dark they appeared almost black? But then many people assume that Lyanna is Jon's mother, so that is not a leap. However, if it was Brandon's eyes that are the "dark eyes", that would be interesting.

12 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Why would Ned have to hide the paternity of Brandon's son, be he legitimate or bastard born? Robert didn't hate Brandon, and Brandon didn't abscond with Lyanna. We are shown through Robert's actions towards Daenerys, and reaction/acceptance to the bloody oath of fealty of Tywin in the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon, that Ned made the right choice in thinking he had to keep Jon's parentage a secret, even at the cost of his precious honor and creating domestic problems with his wife. There is no other feasible reason why Ned would go through all that if Rhaegar is not Jon's father and he didn't have a real and justified fear about what Robert would do to the child if that were ever to be revealed.

A reason that Ned would hide the identity of Brandon's son is if that child was Lyanna's and Brandon's. You don't have to like the theory to see it could be possible. The same could be said for any child that Lyanna bore that was not Roberts. Robert would not like to think of the lady he loved having a child with another man. Like Ned or Benjen. I think if Ned truly wanted to protect a child of Rhaegar's, he would have got it out of Westeros, like he suggests Cersei do for her children with Jaime. And like he might have helped Willem Darry do with Viserys and Daenerys.

8 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Excellent, allyria is actually the person I wanted to throw out next as a possible spawn of Brandon. If I can ask, what makes you like her as Ned's and could you see Brandon being her father instead?

 

4 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Because I don't believe that Brandon was an jerk that would had sex with the woman his brother liked and because I believe that Ashara is one of his broken promises.

Allyria is a possible option for Ashara with either Brandon or Ned. I also hope that Brandon would not be enough of an a-hole to mess with his brother's crush (if Ned had feelings for Ashara) but we don't know much about Brandon. But if Brandon never had son's but maybe did leave a few bastard daughters around, Allyria is an option. But I am more inclined to think that Ashara had a child with Rhaegar, so that makes it less likely she had time to have a Stark bastard baby. That is crock pottery and tin foil, however!

Brandon Stark and his bloody sword and possible bastard children seem fairly important to the story. Or it could all be a tricksy, misdirection, red herring from GRRM. That is what makes trying to figure it out so much fun!

 

[The Fattest Leech]

41 minutes ago, St Daga said:

 

Always nice to have GRRM's own statements to help us out, but I think he is as misdirecting in interviews as he is in text. A tricksy bird! Technically, one could say that Brandon could have died prior to his son being born, and then this statement could still be true. I don't think that is the case,however, but it depends on how the statement is interpreted.  If Brandon did die before an illegitimate son was born, that child would still be considered a Snow. I am more inclined to think that Brandon had bastard daughters, although I wonder about Domeric Bolton possibly being his child.

I agree that GRRM is tricksy. That is why I did not edit or cherrypick from his quotes. I posted them for others readers to make of it what they will.

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We have only Catelyn and Ygritte telling us that incest is an abomination. Two opinions doesn't make it true for every house in the north or in the many wilding groups. I think it leaves a possibility open regarding incest in the Stark family. I don't think GRRM closes many door's completely.

And? We are given information about the world as needed and we don't need every character repeating basic world information. In the story it is meant as a cautionary tale. We have several people from all over that tell of incest as an abomination. Everyone from commoners to highborn:

• Cersei is on trial for it.
• "The Targaryens . . ."
  "We are not Targaryens!"

• "Whore," someone screamed.

"Brotherfucker," another voice added. "Abomination."

 

• I declare upon the honor of my House that my beloved brother Robert, our late king, left no trueborn issue of his body, the boy Joffrey, the boy Tommen, and the girl Myrcella being abominations born of incest between Cersei Lannister and her brother Jaime the Kingslayer.
• "Wife and daughter both, Your Grace. Craster married all his daughters. Gilly's boy was the fruit of their union."
  "Her own father got this child on her?" Stannis sounded shocked. "We are well rid of her, then. I will not suffer such abominations here. This is not King's Landing."
• "Joffrey the Illborn," one of the Cerwyn knights growled. "Small wonder he's faithless, with the Kingslayer for a father."

  "Aye," said another, "the gods hate incest. Look how they brought down the Targaryens."
• "Fucked her own father," Sam heard one man say, as the wind was rising once again. "Worse than whoring, that. Worse than anything. We'll all drown unless we get rid of her, and that abomination that she whelped."
• "Your hour is come right now." Joffrey beckoned to Ser Ilyn Payne to take the man out and strike his head off. But no sooner had that one been dragged away than a knight of solemn mien with a fiery heart on his surcoat shouted out, "Stannis is the true king! A monster sits the Iron Throne, an abomination born of incest!"
  "Be silent," Ser Kevan Lannister bellowed.
• to protect the little prince, to keep him away from Lady Melisandre's fires, away from her red god. If she burns Gilly's boy, who will care? No one but Gilly. He was only Craster's whelp, an abomination born of incest, not the son of the King-beyond-the-Wall. He's no good for a hostage, no good for a sacrifice, no good for anything, he doesn't even have a name.
• Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.
• Aenys further enraged the Faith in 41 AC, when he wed his daughter, Princess Rhaena, to his son and heir, Prince Aegon. Aenys received a denunciation from the Faith, addressed to "King Abomination".

• The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aenys I

  The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure," the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.

  This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. Incest was denounced as vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable.

   

  And George confirms in an interview that the Targaryens thought themselves above the gods (and men)

 

[St Daga]

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Cersei is on trial for it.

Isn't she technically on trial for adultery?

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

• "Whore," someone screamed.

"Brotherfucker," another voice added. "Abomination."

The rumor's are all over King's Landing and Westeros. Not surprising that people would throw that in Cersei's face, especially low born people who probably are enjoying her fall from grace. I might scream that at her too!

9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

• I declare upon the honor of my House that my beloved brother Robert, our late king, left no trueborn issue of his body, the boy Joffrey, the boy Tommen, and the girl Myrcella being abominations born of incest between Cersei Lannister and her brother Jaime the Kingslayer.
• "Wife and daughter both, Your Grace. Craster married all his daughters. Gilly's boy was the fruit of their union."
  "Her own father got this child on her?" Stannis sounded shocked. "We are well rid of her, then. I will not suffer such abominations here. This is not King's Landing."
• "Fucked her own father," Sam heard one man say, as the wind was rising once again. "Worse than whoring, that. Worse than anything. We'll all drown unless we get rid of her, and that abomination that she whelped."
• to protect the little prince, to keep him away from Lady Melisandre's fires, away from her red god. If she burns Gilly's boy, who will care? No one but Gilly. He was only Craster's whelp, an abomination born of incest, not the son of the King-beyond-the-Wall. He's no good for a hostage, no good for a sacrifice, no good for anything, he doesn't even have a name.

And ... I don't know how I managed to mess up quick quote, but I did ...

11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

"Your hour is come right now." Joffrey beckoned to Ser Ilyn Payne to take the man out and strike his head off. But no sooner had that one been dragged away than a knight of solemn mien with a fiery heart on his surcoat shouted out, "Stannis is the true king! A monster sits the Iron Throne, an abomination born of incest!"

"Be silent," Ser Kevan Lannister bellowed.

This all comes from Stannis, who has every reason to try to drag Cersei and the Lannisters down with what ever tools he has available. Stannis is also more than a bit of a stick in the mud. The kings men and queens men parrot Stannis' feelings.

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.

Yes, Catelyn made it pretty obvious how she felt. As did Ygritte (when Jon did not deny that he would bed his sister)

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Aenys further enraged the Faith in 41 AC, when he wed his daughter, Princess Rhaena, to his son and heir, Prince Aegon. Aenys received a denunciation from the Faith, addressed to "King Abomination".

The Faith and the Targaryens certainly disagreed on things like incest and polygamy. I am not surprised that the Faith and the Andal's in general feel this way. It seems like things might have changed a lot in Westeros with the coming of the Andals and the Faith of the Seven. I think the First Men might have felt different about some things, and I think incest could have been one of those things, also possibly blood sacrifice and first nights rights.

19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. Incest was denounced as vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable.

 

And George confirms in an interview that the Targaryens thought themselves above the gods (and men)

Again, I think that the Faith of the Seven and the Andal's are much different than the First Men and the old gods. He is claiming that the Faith and the Targaryen's disagreed. I think that seems pretty obvious. Certainly there are hints and idea that both the Faith and the Maesters are working against the Targaryens. I agree that the Targ's do think they are above most every one. And GRRM is the author that has created this conflict! His story thrives on conflict. 

I just think to dismiss the possibility of incest being a key in our story that applies more than just to House Targaryen and the Lannister incest twins, means we could be missing something important. GRRM is not shy about it in the story. We get Craster, and I find that neither Gilly or her child seem like actual abominations. While I think that Joffrey was an abomination, I think he takes after his mother and grandfather, who have sociopathic tendencies. Myrcella and Tommen seem like kind and decent people. I also wonder if Gendry did ring Bella's bells before snuggling up with Arya for the rest of the night, and I think there is a strong possibility that both Gendry and Bella are Robert's bastards. I don't think that GRRM really puts the Starks above these other houses, even if they are the main family that we follow in the series. Lot's of grey in this world created by The George!

I understand this idea works against R+L=J, but it doesn't hurt to discuss the idea. Discussion is fun, even when people disagree, as long as the discussion remains respectful!

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Isn't she technically on trial for adultery?

"No," she said, more sharply. "I would sooner die."

Ser Kevan was unmoved. "If that is your wish, you may soon have it granted. His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason."

"Deicide?" She almost laughed. "When did I kill a god?"

 

 

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The rumor's are all over King's Landing and Westeros. Not surprising that people would throw that in Cersei's face, especially low born people who probably are enjoying her fall from grace. I might scream that at her too!

But look what they are using as "rumors" and insults. An abomination against the gods. The act of incest and the children are both considered monsterous. They could just laugh and say she is fat, or that she is mad like Aerys, but instead they use something stronger that crosses all sorts of "religious" boundaries.

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And ... I don't know how I managed to mess up quick quote, but I did ...

This all comes from Stannis, who has every reason to try to drag Cersei and the Lannisters down with what ever tools he has available. Stannis is also more than a bit of a stick in the mud. The kings men and queens men parrot Stannis' feelings.

Yup. But Stannis is not wrong. In the ASOIAF world, incest is an abomination across many lands and faiths and throughout history.

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Yes, Catelyn made it pretty obvious how she felt. As did Ygritte (when Jon did not deny that he would bed his sister)

Yes, Catelyn who is our main faith POV gives us this information. And she confirms it was an abomination against the old gods and new, since she has direct experience with both faiths.

And that Jon scene is cherrypicked to death! It seems posters want to pick two lines... and then stop there. If you look at the whole scene, it shows that Jon does not understand why Longspear is considered Ygritte's brother, and she explains to him that they are of the same village and even that is too close of a relationship to start banging each other. It is giving information to the reader via Ygritte, she is like Old Nan, is one who was put in place to give readers some in-world information in a new area that no other main character in the story is actively in.

Ygritte also explains to Jon that "stealing" from one clan to another strengthens the clans through relations. This is a set up for what Jon is doing in the North with Alys and Sigorn, and most probably he and Val. You unite two lands by joining blood, as Nymeria did in Dorne, not by closing off other families and bloodlines. Alys was escaping an incestuous marriage and went on to marry from someone outside of her village.

• "Longspear's not your brother."
  "He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

And we know Dorne has a lot in common with the North and that is why I mentioned Nymeria. We are currently seeing a replay of that historic situation play out in the North this time.

• The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne

Archmaester Brude, who was born and raised in the shadow city that huddles beneath the crumbling walls of Sunspear, once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the dragons. The King in the North accepted Aegon Targaryen as his overlord peaceably, whilst Dorne resisted the might of the Targaryens valiantly for almost two hundred years, before finally submitting to the Iron Throne through marriage. Dornishmen and Northmen alike are derided as savages by the ignorant of the five 'civilized' kingdoms, and celebrated for their valor by those who have crossed swords with them."

• The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

  When Mors Martell took Nymeria to wife, hundreds of his knights, squires, and lords bannermen also wed Rhoynish women, and many of those who were already wed took them for their paramours. Thus were the two peoples united by blood. These unions enriched and strengthened House Martell and its Dornish allies. The Rhoynar brought considerable wealth with them; their artisans, metalworkers, and stonemasons brought skills far in advance of those achieved by their Westerosi counterparts, and their armorers were soon producing swords and spears and suits of scale and plate no Westerosi smith could hope to match. Even more crucially, it is said the Rhoynish water witches knew secret spells that made dry streams flow again and deserts bloom.

   

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The Faith and the Targaryens certainly disagreed on things like incest and polygamy. I am not surprised that the Faith and the Andal's in general feel this way. It seems like things might have changed a lot in Westeros with the coming of the Andals and the Faith of the Seven. I think the First Men might have felt different about some things, and I think incest could have been one of those things, also possibly blood sacrifice and first nights rights.

There are no clues whatsoever that the first men practiced incest, or at least made it a norm. As a matter of fact, we have in the story now the exact opposite. First Men, which includes both northerners and free folk, follow the old gods and incest is an abomination in the eyes of the old gods.

Some of the quotes I gave you were in reference to Monster and what an abomination he is. Val calls Monster a monster because he is born of incest. So there is more wildling/first man input as well.

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Again, I think that the Faith of the Seven and the Andal's are much different than the First Men and the old gods. He is claiming that the Faith and the Targaryen's disagreed. I think that seems pretty obvious. Certainly there are hints and idea that both the Faith and the Maesters are working against the Targaryens. I agree that the Targ's do think they are above most every one. And GRRM is the author that has created this conflict! His story thrives on conflict. 

Oh, I definitely agree that the Faith and maesters are working against any other faith/religion in Westeros. Plain and simply it has to do with controlling by fear and money. But that is another thread

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I just think to dismiss the possibility of incest being a key in our story that applies more than just to House Targaryen and the Lannister incest twins, means we could be missing something important. GRRM is not shy about it in the story.

1. We get Craster, and I find that neither Gilly or her child seem like actual abominations.
2. While I think that Joffrey was an abomination,
3. I think he takes after his mother and grandfather, who have sociopathic tendencies.
4. Myrcella and
5. Tommen seem like kind and decent people.
6. I also wonder if Gendry did ring Bella's bells before snuggling up with Arya for the rest of the night, and I think there is a strong possibility that both Gendry and Bella are Robert's bastards.

Well, you just gave at least six examples of incest, or possible incest being in the book, and we know there are more. Why would we need any more to make the point? What would be the benefit to Jon being born an incestuous abomination? He is already a dreaded bastard! We already have several other examples to get our shocks from. I do agree with the idea that Gendry and Bella are Robert's children.

The story is more about unifying different peoples from different races, cultures, etc. Incest is the exact opposite of that.

I am fine with the idea of George hinting Brandon could have left baby Snow's all over. What my impression was between those two SSM's I quoted was that IF Brandon did leave little snowflakes around, then they would be girls, not boys, which could minimize any potential (and highly unnecessary) inheritance issues if there were any. Also, IF Brandon had a propensity to just take women as wanted without much after thought, how fitting would it be that all of his children would be girls. Kinda like a karma thing going on

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I don't think that GRRM really puts the Starks above these other houses, even if they are the main family that we follow in the series. Lot's of grey in this world created by The George!

I agree that in the end we may find some things out about the Starks that will skew our viewing of them as pure. No doubt. But chances are it will have to do with them mixing their blood with something else entirely. They are a main house that has to do with the theme of the books- ice and fire- and to have them just repeat what has already been done seems redundant. They have a different ending other than shock incest.

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I understand this idea works against R+L=J, but it doesn't hurt to discuss the idea. Discussion is fun, even when people disagree, as long as the discussion remains respectful!

Discussion is fun, I love it, even when people disagree. Trust me, I ask enough crazy random questions on these threads to make a hooker blush. I always appreciate good feedback that is backed up by the books and GRRM as well. It's what we fans do between books!

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason.

So, it is one of several charges. You are correct. The faith will throw nearly any charge they can against her as a member of the established monarchy. The faith wants the monarchy destroyed. Also, when did she kill a god? 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

In the ASOIAF world, incest is an abomination across many lands and faiths and throughout history.

Throughout history is a pretty strong statement. A lot of history is not written, so how do we really know how things seemed ten or twelve thousand years ago. What does the many faced god say about incest? Or the church of starry wisdom? Or the children of the forest? Mother Rhoyne? The black goat of Qohor? Trios the three headed god? There are many religions in Planetos that have not address incest, or  how the people that follow those religions feel about it. I think its a generalization to say in the world of ASOIAF that "incest is an abomination" unless we have statements of that from every religion and people in Planetos.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The act of incest and the children are both considered monsterous.

Do you consider Tommen a monstrous abomination? Do you think Ned did? Do you think Jon or Sam consider Gilly's son to be a monstrous abomination? This is a world of grey that GRRM gives us and not much black and white.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There are no clues whatsoever that the first men practiced incest, or at least made it a norm.

No clues that they don't or didn't, either. 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

First Men, which includes both northerners and free folk, follow the old gods and incest is an abomination in the eyes of the old gods.

Yes, Ygritte says that. And some of the wildlings might believe that. But do all of them? I don't remember Morna White Mask condemning incest? Or even Tormund. Heck, some of the wildlings are said to practice cannibalism like the ice-river clans, and while some people seem pretty upset by that, others don't seem to have an opinion at all. I can't imagine the Faith would approve of cannibalism. This world is a complicated place.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Catelyn who is our main faith POV gives us this information. And she confirms it was an abomination against the old gods and new, since she has direct experience with both faiths.

How much did Catelyn really care to know about the old gods? Truly? I don't trust her in this. Just like I can't trust her interpretation of Jon. She's a complete asshole plenty of the time.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val calls Monster a monster because he is born of incest.

Is that why Val call's that baby Monster? It might be implied, but ... Does she ever say, "I am calling that child Monster because he is a child born of incest?"

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

When Mors Martell took Nymeria to wife, hundreds of his knights, squires, and lords bannermen also wed Rhoynish women, and many of those who were already wed took them for their paramours. Thus were the two peoples united by blood. These unions enriched and strengthened House Martell and its Dornish allies.

I agree that these types of unions serve a great purpose, especially when a whole group of people invade another land and the two peoples are trying to find common ground. That is why Roose wants Ramsay married to a Stark girl, fake or not. For the appearance of a union to join houses and strengthen his hold on the north. But we know why the Targaryens say they practiced incest, and it is rumored to still happen in Volantis, and they are considered decendants of the Valyrian empire. We simply do not know what was going on 8,000 years ago for the first men in how they viewed marriage or incest, cannibalism or blood sacrifice.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, you just gave at least six examples of incest, or possible incest being in the book, and we know there are more. Why would we need any more to make the point?

The great quantity might serve to numb us to the idea, to help insulate the blow when it comes.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

What would be the benefit to Jon being born an incestuous abomination? He is already a dreaded bastard!

Maybe it gives him just one more hurdle to overcome? Just maybe, being born of incest is what makes him special? It is an idea to consider, whether you agree or not. Just like it is worth while to consider what would make Jon special by being born of ice and fire. In my experience, ice and fire mixed seem to create a big messy puddle, but it could do other things for Jon. Special things. I have considered it. I just don't see many fire aspects in Jon, whether Rhaegar or Aerys could be his bio-father.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

We already have several other examples to get our shocks from.

I don't think GRRM wants to shock us once or twice or thrice. I think he wants to keep shocking us, until we think it is impossible for him to shock us any more, and then he will pull one more rabbit out of his magic hat. Maybe it will be a winged rabbit! Maybe I expect to much, it is possible!

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

What my impression was between those two SSM's I quoted was that IF Brandon did leave little snowflakes around, then they would be girls, not boys, which could minimize any potential (and highly unnecessary) inheritance issues if there were any. Also, IF Brandon had a propensity to just take women as wanted without much after thought, how fitting would it be that all of his children would be girls. Kinda like a karma thing going on

That would certainly be a righteous karma for Brandon Stark to be the father of only girls. That is mostly how I interpret that also. But it could be said that "Brandon died before he had any sons", could mean, he died while his bun was still baking, but the buzzer had not gone off yet.

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree that in the end we may find some things out about the Starks that will skew our viewing of them as pure. No doubt. But chances are it will have to do with them mixing their blood with something else entirely. They are a main house that has to do with the theme of the books- ice and fire- and to have them just repeat what has already been done seems redundant. They have a different ending other than shock incest.

All I know that GRRM is far smarter and more devious that I, and he has been thinking this story out for greater than 20 years. He has an end game that I can't safely say that many of us have truly figured out. Certainly, I think GRRM is going to chip away at our perception of Neddard more before this is all over. And I think it could hurt us a bit. At least be disturbing for the Ned fan's in the world. However, I tend to like Ned a little shady and complicated! 

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Discussion is fun, I love it, even when people disagree. Trust me, I ask enough crazy random questions on these threads to make a hooker blush. I always appreciate good feedback that is backed up by the books and GRRM as well. It's what we fans do between books!

The George has certainly given us plenty of time for discussion since Dance came out. I am certain that the time makes some theories even more outlandish than should be possible, but that doesn't mean that GRRM isn't writing in a manner that is meant to be outlandish and diabolical to the bitter (or bittersweet) end!

I am more of a creeper than a poster, but I go through fit's were I decide to post. Mostly I like to think and process and absorb ideas, and see what fit's my interpretations of the text best. Every time I reread a chapter or book, I come away looking at some aspects differently. Is is amazing really, how it works. The story is just really that astounding. 

Fun discussion! Thanks!

[Aegon VII]

I really see zero chance of stark incest becoming part of the story. I put a lot of stock in the dichotomy between ice and fire and how well GRRM parallels them, but this is not one of their commonalities. For me this kind of touches on the idea of targs thinking of themselves as more than other men. dragons are categorically different from other animals. I think through targs GRRM explores the idea of Nietzsche's ubermenchs and the dangers that lie therein. The targ incest is 1: a way to show they're above the laws of men, same with polygamy and 2: reinforcing that their blood is different than everyone else's and needs to be mated with other dragons to stay pure.

the Starks seem to take an opposite mindset to this first point. Ned instills in his children good morals that all men should follow. Starks have honor, and a big part of honor is that they hold themselves to the same standards as others. Starks also swing the sword when executing rather than distancing himself from it. 

So while I still think there is a connection here between ice and fire, I think the connection illustrates how the two families differ in their approach to ruling, rather than the connection being that their both incestual. Starks follow the laws they expect others to follow. Targs view themselves above these laws and do not.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

This is very true. And it is also one of the reason that I actually think Jon is Ned's biologic son. Ned claiming Jon as his bastard did not make life easier for Jon or Ned, so why do it, unless it was the truth?

"Easier" is relative, though. Easier than what?

I would argue that Ned claiming Jon as his bastard did in fact make life easier than it would have been if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and if Ned had confirmed that. But just because Ned's chosen course wasn't very easy doesn't mean that it actually wasn't the easier course.

Part of the reason (I believe) that Ned is so tortured by it is because he is aware that he is lying about Jon being his bastard son. That living a lie, as well as the fear that his lie could be found out, bothers him just as much as the pain he caused his wife.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

<snip

I love this idea and it has crossed my mind also. I think Domeric could very likely be Brandon's son. With either Bethany or Barbry, but I like the idea that he "bloodied his sword" with both Ryswell sisters. That Brandon was a wild wolf, after all! Maybe Roose suspected or knew, and that is why he decided to renew the Stark/Bolton hostilities.

<snip

Never given the color for who's eyes? Do you mean Lyanna or Brandon, or even Rickard? Ned's are grey and Benjen's are blue-grey. Jon's are a grey so dark they are almost black. Lyanna's eyes are not described in the text and neither are Brandon's that I know of. Maybe that is the key we are missing to explain Jon's parentage. Lyanna is compared to Arya and Jon describes Arya's eyes as "dark eyes, like his". So does this mean that Arya and Jon have the same eye color? Maybe Lyanna had the grey eyes so dark they appeared almost black? But then many people assume that Lyanna is Jon's mother, so that is not a leap. However, if it was Brandon's eyes that are the "dark eyes", that would be interesting.

Or that's why he did nothing about his suspicion that Ramsay killed Domeric.

Never given the color of Jon's eyes. They are dark, but no color. And the deep/dark purple that shows up in Targaryens looks almost black in certain circumstances, like when they lack silver hair or when they are in low-light areas. What a person wears also affects the appearance of eye color. Thus with Jon always in black or other dark colors, dark purple eyes would look very dark but not particularly purple.

No. Dark is not a color. It's a value. Arya's eyes could be dark grey (Stark), or dark blue (Tully) or dark brown for all we know (throwback double recessive). Jon's eyes could be dark grey (Stark), or dark purple (Targaryen/Dayne), or dark any other color (again a throwback).

By the way, the reason people have a problem with the idea of Stark incest is because there is absolutely nothing in the books that indicates it ever happened or would be accepted if it did. Rickard and Lyarra don't count because cousin marriages are not counted as incest in Westeros.

Jon has to be fathered during the war. Brandon was already dead before it started, and Ned was too busy fighting to have time for rendezvous with anyone.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

So, it is one of several charges. You are correct. The faith will throw nearly any charge they can against her as a member of the established monarchy. The faith wants the monarchy destroyed. Also, when did she kill a god? 

Ok, just one more round because I feel like we could be here all day and I can't because I don't have enough tea on hand to keep us quenched that whole time.

The Faith/7 will use what they can, but just about everyone in KL, including Cersei's own family and commoners on the street, know what Cersei and Jaime did... commit the crime of incest.

Deicide is an awfully strong word, and a cool metal band However, it applies to Cersei when she had the High Septon (the fat one?) killed because she was afeared of what Lancel may have told him.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Throughout history is a pretty strong statement. A lot of history is not written, so how do we really know how things seemed ten or twelve thousand years ago.

Not all of history because I agree that we will never see that. George has pretty much said so and it would be impossible to do so. But we do have a great deal of history now in the World book. And in that book, and through the main five book storytellers, we get snippets of information that pertain to the current story. Some random tribe of little chipmunk people half a world away and extinct for 2,000 years that could have practiced incest does little to nothing for our story now. (By the way, chipmunk men sound awesome) That is something the maesters have described as "queer customs" in the different global cultures and one they would be sure to add if they knew of it and it was important.

What we have are the key plot points from the key players that has to do with now... even when an event happen 100+ years ago and is having a lasting effect on the story to this date.

The future books George has planned so far seem to focus on the Targs and not world history, except for the possible She-wolves of Winterfell, so we probably won't ever get the entire detail down to the last kernel. We maaay get more (condensed) snippets like this, but not a lot:

The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti

In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and MaidenMade-of-Light, who traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl and carried by a hundred queens, his wives. For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the Godon-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears.

Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries...yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.

(by the way, this downfall of a dynasty idea is also told in the Bran quote above about how incest brought down the Targs. Part of that cautionary tale thing)

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

 

What does the many faced god say about incest? Or the church of starry wisdom? Or the children of the forest? Mother Rhoyne? The black goat of Qohor? Trios the three headed god? There are many religions in Planetos that have not address incest, or  how the people that follow those religions feel about it. I think its a generalization to say in the world of ASOIAF that "incest is an abomination" unless we have statements of that from every religion and people in Planetos.

We will never get those insights because the story is about our current song of ice and fire and we have already been given enough "world" info to see how it is accepted, or not, throughout the main parts of the story. As one example, the Dothraki are considered "godless" by many in Westeros, but we readers know they do have some gods and faith, and even through this we never hear of inbreeding with them. If they did, then chances are high it would have been mentioned, or witnesses more like, in relation to the two Targs that we have seen with the Dothraki, so far.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Do you consider Tommen a monstrous abomination?

It probably does not matter what I think of Tommen, or any of the other inbred babies in the story, because my real world ideals are not based in ASOIAF world.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Do you think Ned did? Do you think Jon or Sam consider Gilly's son to be a monstrous abomination? This is a world of grey that GRRM gives us and not much black and white.

Considering Ned and Jon are of First Men/Northern blood, and they actively follow the old gods, and we are told that the old gods see this as an abomination, and the results are monsters... I think we can draw a conclusion and say yes. Now, they are not going to be assholes about it. Jon even promises to protect Gilly's baby and not name him until he is after two years old. There is the grey. They know it is wrong (black), but they chose to be grey about it.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

No clues that they don't or didn't, either. 

Well, we have lots to go on already from a few characters, so this particular statement of yours sounds kinds like the tea pot orbiting the sun idea. Sorry. I can't answer this one.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Yes, Ygritte says that. And some of the wildlings might believe that. But do all of them?

Well, we do have more than one wildling say the same thing about this idea. Just sayin'

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I don't remember Morna White Mask condemning incest?

She doesn't need to. She only gets, what, two lines and one of those lines is about being a man or woman to Jon, whatever he prefers, because Morna's character is another example of how Jon is shaking things up and putting women in charge of serious duties. He gave her Queensgate to garrison with her own selected people. This is Jon practicing equal primogeniture in the north- to the hilarious chagrin of Bowen Marsh

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Or even Tormund. Heck, some of the wildlings are said to practice cannibalism like the ice-river clans, and while some people seem pretty upset by that, others don't seem to have an opinion at all. I can't imagine the Faith would approve of cannibalism. This world is a complicated place.

Agreed. The cannibalism is a detail that important to this part of the story and that is why it is brought up in places like warging, Skagos, ice river clans, etc. Because it happens and we readers need to know this information.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

How much did Catelyn really care to know about the old gods? Truly? I don't trust her in this. Just like I can't trust her interpretation of Jon. She's a complete asshole plenty of the time.

Well, she had 16 years of total, daily immersion to learn about them. I'd say she knows quite a bit. She even thinks about them when she is out of Winterfell on her travels.

I agree that she is an A-hole plenty of times. She swings from far dark grey, to far light grey depending on the subject matter in her hands.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Is that why Val call's that baby Monster? It might be implied, but ... Does she ever say, "I am calling that child Monster because he is a child born of incest?"

The first we get of this is Jon making the statement that Val says this. We know that Val is a woman of the free folk and she follows the old gods. And we know how the old gods feel about incest. I may have mentioned this already??? Sooo, we don't really need a character to literally say, "I am calling that child Monster because of incest," because readers are smart and have been given this information many times already.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I agree that these types of unions serve a great purpose, especially when a whole group of people invade another land and the two peoples are trying to find common ground. That is why Roose wants Ramsay married to a Stark girl, fake or not. For the appearance of a union to join houses and strengthen his hold on the north. But we know why the Targaryens say they practiced incest, and it is rumored to still happen in Volantis, and they are considered decendants of the Valyrian empire.

Much of that is also "blood purity" because people who look traditionally Valyrian can make a fortune for pillowhouse owners. And even back in Valyria of old, it was pretty much just the nobles who practiced it.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

We simply do not know what was going on 8,000 years ago for the first men in how they viewed marriage or incest, cannibalism or blood sacrifice.

But we have been told about blood sacrifice in the olden days. We have even seen it through Bran's eyes (and Mel and Moqorro still practice blood sacrifice).

We have seen cannibalism in the current story as well, even though there are some theories that the cannibalism of Skagos is actually the "lost" dragon Cannibal. Also, Varamyr gives us a short lesson in cannibalism when warging, and while not everyone is a warg or skinchanger, this was a (predominantly/only) *First Men ability and that belief could easily come from the established old gods faith.

*yes, this could have been a magic gift from the CotF, I was just paraphrasing for length.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

The great quantity might serve to numb us to the idea, to help insulate the blow when it comes.

This seems counterproductive to storytelling.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Maybe it gives him just one more hurdle to overcome? Just maybe, being born of incest is what makes him special?

Jon has a ton of hurdles so far, and we only have two books left. Jon has to heal, fight the others, interact with Dany, save Winterfell, learn his Targaryen identity, come to terms with it, come to terms with Ned and Cat for different reasons, figure out his ruling place in the new world, etc... this would just bog it down while making Jon tooo golden and special.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I am more of a creeper than a poster, but I go through fit's were I decide to post. Mostly I like to think and process and absorb ideas, and see what fit's my interpretations of the text best. Every time I reread a chapter or book, I come away looking at some aspects differently. Is is amazing really, how it works. The story is just really that astounding. 

Fun discussion! Thanks!

I go through phases of posting a lot and then not. It happens I love re-reads (or re-listens on Audible). After a bajillion reads, I also still find new information (or re-learn what I forgot). I love it. George is frickin' brilliant this way.

You should try some of his older stories if you want something to read during our patient TWOW wait.

[The Fattest Leech]

31 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Or that's why he did nothing about his suspicion that Ramsay killed Domeric.

Never given the color of Jon's eyes. They are dark, but no color. And the deep/dark purple that shows up in Targaryens looks almost black in certain circumstances, like when they lack silver hair or when they are in low-light areas. What a person wears also affects the appearance of eye color. Thus with Jon always in black or other dark colors, dark purple eyes would look very dark but not particularly purple.

No. Dark is not a color. It's a value. Arya's eyes could be dark grey (Stark), or dark blue (Tully) or dark brown for all we know (throwback double recessive). Jon's eyes could be dark grey (Stark), or dark purple (Targaryen/Dayne), or dark any other color (again a throwback).

By the way, the reason people have a problem with the idea of Stark incest is because there is absolutely nothing in the books that indicates it ever happened or would be accepted if it did. Rickard and Lyarra don't count because cousin marriages are not counted as incest in Westeros.

Jon has to be fathered during the war. Brandon was already dead before it started, and Ned was too busy fighting to have time for rendezvous with anyone.

Not only that, but Rickard and Lyarra are cousins once removed, which means another, third, bloodline was introduced... which removes them even further from each other.

And if you look at Rickard in particular, he has Royce, Stark, Blackwood, and Locke blood, while Lyarra has Royce, Stark, Flint blood.

[JonSnow4President]

20 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Easily? There is no textual evidence, only some really reaching crackpottery that doesn't make much sense. Why would Ned have to hide the paternity of Brandon's son, be he legitimate or bastard born? Robert didn't hate Brandon, and Brandon didn't abscond with Lyanna. We are shown through Robert's actions towards Daenerys, and reaction/acceptance to the bloody oath of fealty of Tywin in the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon, that Ned made the right choice in thinking he had to keep Jon's parentage a secret, even at the cost of his precious honor and creating domestic problems with his wife. There is no other feasible reason why Ned would go through all that if Rhaegar is not Jon's father and he didn't have a real and justified fear about what Robert would do to the child if that were ever to be revealed. 

Um, Ned is dishonorable and wanted the Northern Paramountcy for himself.  Duh. 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Part of the reason (I believe) that Ned is so tortured by it is because he is aware that he is lying about Jon being his bastard son. That living a lie, as well as the fear that his lie could be found out, bothers him just as much as the pain he caused his wife.

I'm also of the opinion (albeit, with MUCH less evidence than him being conflicted about Jon), that he was in love with Ashara, had personally promised to marry her (likely another broken promise in my mind), although likely not an official bethrothal, and even possibly fathered a bastard stillborn daughter on her, making it that much easier for him to claim that Jon was his bastard. 

To be clear, I think he is conflicted about Jon as well, but that the events with Ashara are yet another compounding factor. 

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

On 2/24/2017 at 10:47 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

How possibly could the war have "raged for close to a year"? Here's the sequence of the events: Lyanna disappears. Brandon goes berserk, rides to King's Landing (a few weeks here), challenges Rhaegar. Gets thrown in dungeon for his trouble. Rickard summoned. Rickard rides to King's Landing (another few weeks). The "trial". Aerys demands the heads of Ned and Bob. I see easily two, three months passing here.

Then Jon Arryn raises his banners, and the war breaks. The Sack of King's Landing marks the moment when the war "had raged for a year", according to Ned. To make the "conceived before Lyanna's disappearance" scenario work, we need to assume that "close to a year" took six, seven months tops.

Plus, you know, there's still this little thing of the absolute lack of evidence for the "Brandon's son" theory, instead of mere "you can't disprove it" (which, as shown above, we can). Well, I cannot disprove a teapot orbiting the Sun between Earth and Mars; nobody can. Doesn't mean the hypothetical teapot deserves any credit due an actual, valid theory.

Dear God, you are a genius.

Spoiler

 The teapot orbiting between the Earth and Mars is Jon's father.  It would explain the lack of teapots at the Wall, as GRRM wants to hide the connection between Jon and the teapot. 

In a serious note.

22 hours ago, Allardyce said:

Brandon bedded many ladies.  He's got an equal chance of fathering a boy.  One could easily be Jon Snow himself.

How do statistics enter this discussion?  For Jon to be conceived, his father would have to have sex with Jon's mother.  For example, statistically the probability of a bastard being Robert's is high due to Robert fooling around, but there is no evidence that Jon is Robert's son or that Robert had sex with Lyanna.

Also if the argument is that Brandon is Jon's only Stark parent, there is no reason for Ned to lie about Jon's parentage.  The pain Cat would feel from Brandon cheating pre-marriage would theoretically be less then Ned cheating post-marriage.  Ned has never been shown to desire power, so the theory that Ned hid Jon's parentage to assume control over Winterfel is not supported by evidence.  If Ned desired power and Jon was the legitimate lord of Winterfel, he could have just ruled as Jon's Regent.