RedEyedGhost

Iron Fist [SPOILERS - after page 3]

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The no killing thing, could be interestingly examined and explained as well, about not wanting to become judge, jury and executioner. There are real reasons why vigilantes killing people is not good. But instead we just get Colossus style finger wagging 'killing is wrong.'

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

The no killing thing, could be interestingly examined and explained as well, about not wanting to become judge, jury and executioner. There are real reasons why vigilantes killing people is not good. But instead we just get Colossus style finger wagging 'killing is wrong.'

Eh, I don't think the default is killing people. I think there is a measure of self-explanation in the idea that people out there trying to be 'super-heroes' are going to want to stop short of killing. I mean, it's not a normal job, and it's voluntary. Presumably there is some significant motivation for wanting to go out there and fight baddies...and those baddies are, at worst, killing folk. And like 2/3 of them figure they've got good reasons for killing folk. So doing the same is just saying your reasons are better...but who doesn't think that about their own reasons? 

 

Edit: though specific to Danny's story I don't see why he'd go that way. Trained to be a warrior, not a hero. Warriors kill.

Edited by James Arryn

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20 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Edit: though specific to Danny's story I don't see why he'd go that way. Trained to be a warrior, not a hero. Warriors kill.

Beyond that, I don't think there's a lot of gray area in the story in Iron Fist.  The Hand are pretty much pure evil.  Why bother sparing them?

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I wonder if the TV shows last long enough if they will have Daredevil become leader of the Hand.

re: Superheroes killing. I think for the most part I prefer superheroes to want to try to act within the law, which means letting the courts do the job of dispensing justice most of the time. For heroes, killing villains should not be one of their objectives. For anti-heroes, like The Punisher, that is obviously a significant motivation. For someone like Iron Fist he should probably be somewhere in the middle. His objective with the hand is to kill without hesitation, for other villains and criminals I think the motivation would be more bringing them in to face the justice of the law.

With few exceptions, I don't think killing should come easy or often to superheroes.

I also don't think Lady Gao is easy to kill, and perhaps our heroes who've come up against her know it. We've seen instances of her wielding some pretty major power. I would think if lady Gao sees you coming the chances of killing her are not high, and the chances of you getting dead are probably even at best.

 

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2 hours ago, The BlackBear said:

The no killing thing, could be interestingly examined and explained as well, about not wanting to become judge, jury and executioner. There are real reasons why vigilantes killing people is not good. But instead we just get Colossus style finger wagging 'killing is wrong.'

Daredevil S2 went into this territory, but I felt they really dropped the ball with Matt's stance on killing versus Frank's in the latter part of the season. If the show's called Daredevil then the writers are doing something wrong when the audience is rooting for the guy whose core beliefs go against those of your titular character.

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I will say, one thing I do like about Iron Fist is that they introduced a consequence for bringing characters back to life.  I don't recall if Daredevil 2 touched on it or not, but I like that each resurrection leaves you a bit less human.  It certainly explains why Gao is the way that she is, and I imagine it will have ramifications on future Daredevil seasons as well when Elektra inevitably returns (although I still think it was a huge waste to not have her first death be at the hands of Bullseye).

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7 hours ago, briantw said:

I really hate when they have to trip over themselves to explain why characters are unwilling to kill.  Like, it makes sense for some heroes (like Batman, whose life was ruined by his parents' murder), but Danny Rand has essentially been trained since childhood to be a killing machine.

Has he?

A living weapon, yes. Protector of K'un L'un, yes. To fight the Hand, yes. But 'a killing machine'? That's not a phrase that's ever used. We don't know and can only infer the attitude to killing that prevailed in Danny's training.

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1 minute ago, mormont said:

Has he?

A living weapon, yes. Protector of K'un L'un, yes. To fight the Hand, yes. But 'a killing machine'? That's not a phrase that's ever used. We don't know and can only infer the attitude to killing that prevailed in Danny's training.

His sole (based on what we've heard so far) purpose as Iron Fist is to destroy the Hand.  To me, that implies wiping them out, aka killing them.

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2 minutes ago, briantw said:

His sole (based on what we've heard so far) purpose as Iron Fist is to destroy the Hand.  To me, that implies wiping them out, aka killing them.

Not to me, certainly not to the point where we can use the phrase 'killing machine'. I can easily believe that Danny was trained to kill only when absolutely necessary. He doesn't kill in the comics, and he's the Iron Fist there too.

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I like how Bakuto is basically running the same scam as Shredder in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, taking disenfranchised youths and turning them into ninjas.  If you're gonna steal, steal from the best.

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16 hours ago, briantw said:

 

There is literally zero reason for them not to kill Gao when they have the chance.  She's a purely evil character who has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and will obviously try to kill them when she escapes.  You're not going to reform her, and she has an army of minions to break her out of custody should you try to hand her over to the police.  Just fucking off her and be done with it.

I was actually more bemused at how they got Gao back from China as a hostage. Same with Claire's claws. I guess flying by private jet has its perks.

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7 minutes ago, red snow said:

I was actually more bemused at how they got Gao back from China as a hostage. Same with Claire's claws. I guess flying by private jet has its perks.

Notice that it's the same private jet that crashed when Danny was a kid. Amazing they made it back, isn't it?

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4 hours ago, mormont said:

Notice that it's the same private jet that crashed when Danny was a kid. Amazing they made it back, isn't it?

That's a good catch - no wonder Danny was a bit shaky. Hope they checked the pilots for pins.

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31 minutes ago, red snow said:

That's a good catch

Well, the fact that I'd seen the interior of that aeroplane about forty times in the first two episodes helped.

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I'm around ten or eleven episodes into Iron Fist and thus far my favorite part was when Davos tells Claire about the dragon, to which she condescendingly tells him that dragons aren't real.  It's like, bitch, you literally lived through an alien invasion of New York where a green rage monster, a Norse god, a super soldier from the 1940's, and an alcoholic in a robot suit fought against giant flying lizard worms ridden by insectoid creatures led by another Norse god, you're dating a guy who's bulletproof, and you've spent the past year fighting alongside a blind lawyer with super hearing against a shadowy cabal of ninjas who can resurrect the dead and turn teenagers into zombie killing machines.  Is this really where you're going to draw your line in the sand?

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3 minutes ago, mormont said:

Well, the fact that I'd seen the interior of that aeroplane about forty times in the first two episodes helped.

very good. I've been watching this in bed or at breakfast so i miss a lot of the obvious visual details as I either have eyes half closed or looking at food :P

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3 hours ago, red snow said:

very good. I've been watching this in bed or at breakfast so i miss a lot of the obvious visual details as I either have eyes half closed or looking at food :P

Probably wise.

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7 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Probably wise.

Fight scenes are a good time to focus on cornflakes.

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My thoughts, stream of conscious style:

1. The show is really bad. I think it has the best idea, and I think the Iron Fist is the most interesting character of the 4 defenders so far, but the execution is just awful. And it starts with the fact that the actor that plays Danny is terrible.

2. The "controversy" around white guy vs. Asian guy is completely manufactured. The fictional culture of the magical city of kun'lun does not exist. It can't be "culturally appropriated." The character is an outsider who abandons kun'lun and it's people in favor of coming home. You could have done that with an Asian-American actor, or an American actor of any ethnicity, but there is no need for the actor to be any specific type. It reminds me of how ridiculous the people who were freaking out that fictional ghostbusters were made into female characters for the reboot. They aren't fucking real, they can be changed. Any outrage should be directed at how shitty the actor they cast was.

3. The Colleen character was bad, and the actress wasn't great. Maybe it was just because her story and dialogue were so bad. I don't think she's hopeless like Danny's actor is.

4. Why does Claire always show up for no reason? It's getting annoying. If they want to get more Rosario in there, why don't they actually develop her character and giver her an arc instead of making her just show up?  The parts where Gao basically said she was hanger-on for superheroes was kind of a lame excuse for her being in every show without much of a purpose.

5. The Meachems were great.  Harold was an excellent villain. Ward was an excellent entitled douche bag living quite literally under the specter of his great father. Joy was great until the ridiculous twist at the end. Clearly they are setting her up to be a villain going forward, but they did nothing to give her a reason for a heel turn. They could have done this pretty easily by shielding her from the fact that her zombie dad was actually a piece of shit, and her just seeing Ward and Danny kill him. But she realizes how awful he is, and that he set Danny up, so it makes zero sense that she is now on the outside of Rand and wants to kill Danny to get back in.

6. This could have been good if they'd done it right, but I just don't see any way of getting it back on track when the lead actor is so terrible.

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On 4/11/2017 at 11:23 AM, mormont said:

Notice that it's the same private jet that crashed when Danny was a kid. Amazing they made it back, isn't it?

There was a leer jet sale after Y2K. Rand family stocked up. :lol:

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