Why didn't Stannis and Renly never bonded?

[shardofNarsil]

Robert was fostered at Vale during his teens so he wasn't really close to any of his brothers.But Stannis and Renly were together for many years till the Robert's crowning and they even survived the siege of SE together ,at that time Stannis was 17(amazing :respect:)and Renly might be around 8,dont know about anyone else but seeing my older brother holding our home against the power of the Reach while being starving would made him almost Godlike in my eyes no matter how hard he acted toward the people around him.

I can't really understand why Renly came to despise Stannis and had no respect for him .The way he acted at the parley with Stannis shows what a spoiled brat he was ,he was going to kill his brother ,the brother he starved with( "We dug coal together" ) for a throne to which he had no right.

[Lord Lannister]

Renly getting Storm's End over Stannis probably elevated himself in his own eyes over Stannis.

[theblackdragonI]

Well obviously there's the age gap, but as weird as this sounds Renly not watching his parents die ensured that he wouldn't be close to his older brothers.

I think it's safe enough to assume that Robert and Stannis would have been close as children as they're around the same age, would have got a similar education and would grown up together. Seeing their parents drown together created huge distance between them as they struggled to deal with it, but also a really strong connection. I think this is evident in what we know of their relationship. Robert clearly relied on Stannis a lot, holding Storms End, capturing Dragonstone and breaking the Iron Fleet. They bickered because their personalities changed a lot after their parents died; Robert became loud and crass while Stannis became gloomy and stern.

I think that after Robert went to the Vale, Stannis became even more gloomier which would be all Renly knew him as. He wouldn't have known his brothers really before their parents died. I think he idolised Robert at the beginning because he was so different to Stannis, but as Robert's reign went on he became more disgusted with him. I think he was so disrespectful to Stannis because Stannis refused to play the courtier and kiss Robert's ass like Renly did. In the end it probably comes down to an inferiority complex. Renly was scared of his older brothers because they were giants among men. But Robert got fat and became a drunk, yet Stannis never changed and that frightened Renly into taunting him.

[UnFit Finlay]

You can't really put all the blame on Renly for them not bonding. Stannis hasn't bonded with many people. He takes himself far too seriously and isn't much fun. It's fairly easy to imagine Renly growing up watching Robert wind Stannis up and thinking it would be fun to do the same. After all, as impressive as holding Storm's End was, it wasn't as glamorous as winning the Throne.

As for Renly taking the Crown. It's not a popular opinion but I'd argue that Renly likely didn't feel that he had a choice. He didn't know about the Twincest so the idea that his priggish, stubborn and dutiful older brother would usurp his nephew's Throne likely never even occurred him. Even if he did, Stannis was so unlikable, at that point, that he'd have struggled to hold the Throne, even with Renly's backing. At least that's how Renly would've seen it.

He knew his days were numbered with the Lannisters in control so supporting Joffrey was out. That left crowning himself as the only option he had.

[shardofNarsil]

14 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

As for Renly taking the Crown. It's not a popular opinion but I'd argue that Renly likely didn't feel that he had a choice. He didn't know about the Twincest so the idea that his priggish, stubborn and dutiful older brother would usurp his nephew's Throne likely never even occurred him. Even if he did, Stannis was so unlikable, at that point, that he'd have struggled to hold the Throne, even with Renly's backing. At least that's how Renly would've seen it.

He knew his days were numbered with the Lannisters in control so supporting Joffrey was out. That left crowning himself as the only option he had.

So he never bothers to talk to his brother about his plans thinking himself above him when all Renly ever had was given to him by Robert on Stannis' expense and then chooses to take the easy way instead of performing his duty so unlike his two older brothers .If it were Renly  in Stannis' position during a siege as hard as SE he would have just yielded.

If Jon and Davos are able to appreciate Stannis then why can't he ,maybe because Renly was too stupid and got played by Tyrells hard and proved himself the weakest of the Baratheons.

[UnFit Finlay]

Just now, shardofNarsil said:

So he never bothers to talk to his brother about his plans thinking himself above him when all Renly ever had was given to him by Robert on Stannis' expense and then chooses to take the easy way instead of performing his duty so unlike his two older brothers .If it were Renly  in Stannis' position during a siege as hard as SE he would have just yielded.

If Jon and Davos are able to appreciate Stannis then why can't he ,maybe because Renly was too stupid and got played by Tyrells hard and proved himself the weakest of the Baratheons.

He never bothered to consult Stannis about committing treason, yes. Stannis himself said that he found it difficult to betray Aerys, even though he'd demanded Robert's head for absolutely no reason. Renly had every reason to believe that, had he approached Stannis and said "Hey Me and the Tyrells are plotting treason against Robert's kids? You in?", Stannis would've had him clapped in chains and shipped back to the Lannisters. After all, that would've been the RIGHT thing to do wouldn't it?

Again, Renly is far from the only person who didn't appreciate Stannis. He's my favourite character but he was generally unlikable. The fact that Jon and Davos appreciate him is more evidence of their intelligence than it is Renly's stupidity. Hardly anybody appreciated Stannis, that's what makes him such an interesting character and has made his evolution so compelling. People are starting to appreciate him now and he's earning their respect by his actions, rather than demanding it because of his birth.

I should point out that Renly didn't lose because of stupidity or weakness. He was killed by a magical shadow assassin. There's not much he could've done to prevent that.

[Renly's Banana]

7 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

So he never bothers to talk to his brother about his plans thinking himself above him when all Renly ever had was given to him by Robert on Stannis' expense and then chooses to take the easy way instead of performing his duty so unlike his two older brothers .If it were Renly  in Stannis' position during a siege as hard as SE he would have just yielded.

If Jon and Davos are able to appreciate Stannis then why can't he ,maybe because Renly was too stupid and got played by Tyrells hard and proved himself the weakest of the Baratheons.

I don't think you're understanding the simple fact that Renly did not like him. He did not want to talk to him. Nobody wanted to talk to him.
Stannis also went away to Dragonstone and cloistered himself doing nothing for half a year. Why didn't HE go to Renly with his concerns about Robert's kids? When Robert died, Renly had to flee or end up like Ned. Why would you go join up with your unlikable, gloomy and fairly weak brother when you can go hang out with your buttbuddy's family and make a real attempt at saving the throne? Also "getting played" how? Making an alliance with one of the strongest houses in the realm is not "getting played."

The problem with the Baratheons is that they all have wildly differently personalities, and because all three hated each other, they went looking for companionship elsewhere. Affection is a two-way street, and there's no sign that Stannis ever tried to reach out to Renly either.
If everybody dislikes you, then maybe the problem is with you, not them. 

[Victor Newman]

The basic answer is the difference in their personalities which also shaped their values.  To a party animal like Renly, laws are flexible and the popular opinion matter more.  Stannis is very much the opposite.  I prefer Stannis over Renly.  Consistency is more important to justice than flexibility.

[shardofNarsil]

10 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

 Also "getting played" how? Making an alliance with one of the strongest houses in the realm is not "getting played."

He was manipulated and most probably would have continued being manipulated by the Tyrells through Loras.His whole council was made up of reachmen.

[UnFit Finlay]

Just now, shardofNarsil said:

He was manipulated and most probably would have continued being manipulated by the Tyrells through Loras.His whole council was made up of reachmen.

I don't think we know anything close to enough about Renly's relationship with Loras to know if there was any manipulation involved. For what it's worth, Mace was the only member of his small council and not a bad choice considering.

Even if they were manipulating them, it still doesn't change the fact that crowning himself was by far his best option at the time. He didn't know about the Twincest and he had absolutely no reason to believe that Stannis would even contemplate stealing Joffrey's throne, much less actually do it.

[Renly's Banana]

24 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

He was manipulated and most probably would have continued being manipulated by the Tyrells through Loras.His whole council was made up of reachmen.

Manipulated how? That's still not explaining anything.
I don't doubt it was Loras or Mace's idea that Renly should try being king, but that wasn't a bad plan. Again, a mutually beneficial alliance is not "getting played."

[theblackdragonI]

1 hour ago, Renly's Banana said:

I don't think you're understanding the simple fact that Renly did not like him. He did not want to talk to him. Nobody wanted to talk to him.
Stannis also went away to Dragonstone and cloistered himself doing nothing for half a year. Why didn't HE go to Renly with his concerns about Robert's kids? When Robert died, Renly had to flee or end up like Ned. Why would you go join up with your unlikable, gloomy and fairly weak brother when you can go hang out with your buttbuddy's family and make a real attempt at saving the throne? Also "getting played" how? Making an alliance with one of the strongest houses in the realm is not "getting played."

The problem with the Baratheons is that they all have wildly differently personalities, and because all three hated each other, they went looking for companionship elsewhere. Affection is a two-way street, and there's no sign that Stannis ever tried to reach out to Renly either.
If everybody dislikes you, then maybe the problem is with you, not them. 

I definitely wouldn't call Stannis weak. If you're talking about character he's so much stronger than Renly and if you're talking about troops well he has the royal fleet which is nothing to be sniffed at. Tywin, along with most people of importance considered Stannis the biggest threat and Renly just a boy playing at war. 

Renly was an opportunist simple as. There's nothing inherently good or evil in that. He did what he saw as right and Stannis could only perceive that as betrayal because his character, and no matter how he felt about Robert he always served him loyally. 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

2 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Well obviously there's the age gap, but as weird as this sounds Renly not watching his parents die ensured that he wouldn't be close to his older brothers.

I think it's safe enough to assume that Robert and Stannis would have been close as children as they're around the same age, would have got a similar education and would grown up together. Seeing their parents drown together created huge distance between them as they struggled to deal with it, but also a really strong connection. I think this is evident in what we know of their relationship. Robert clearly relied on Stannis a lot, holding Storms End, capturing Dragonstone and breaking the Iron Fleet. They bickered because their personalities changed a lot after their parents died; Robert became loud and crass while Stannis became gloomy and stern.

I think that after Robert went to the Vale, Stannis became even more gloomier which would be all Renly knew him as. He wouldn't have known his brothers really before their parents died. I think he idolised Robert at the beginning because he was so different to Stannis, but as Robert's reign went on he became more disgusted with him. I think he was so disrespectful to Stannis because Stannis refused to play the courtier and kiss Robert's ass like Renly did. In the end it probably comes down to an inferiority complex. Renly was scared of his older brothers because they were giants among men. But Robert got fat and became a drunk, yet Stannis never changed and that frightened Renly into taunting him.

Excellent points, I co-sign on all of this.

[ftheking]

55 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

He was manipulated and most probably would have continued being manipulated by the Tyrells through Loras.

Huh? The only thing we know about their relationship is that Loras was head over heels in love, went crazy when Renly died and considered him his sun. The overall Tyrell plot was making Renly king and keeping him in power.

So where is the part where Renyl seems to have been a victim of manipulation?

[Renly's Banana]

39 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

I definitely wouldn't call Stannis weak. If you're talking about character he's so much stronger than Renly and if you're talking about troops well he has the royal fleet which is nothing to be sniffed at. Tywin, along with most people of importance considered Stannis the biggest threat and Renly just a boy playing at war. 

Renly was an opportunist simple as. There's nothing inherently good or evil in that. He did what he saw as right and Stannis could only perceive that as betrayal because his character, and no matter how he felt about Robert he always served him loyally. 

Stannis only had about half the royal fleet. Plus the handful of minor lords that semi-supported him. He was vastly underpowered in troop numbers too. Compared to the Redwyne fleet, which Renly may have gotten, and the size of the Reach, Stannis was very weak.  

[zandru]

Part of the blame may be the big age difference between Renly and his older brothers, like 10+ years. Renly would have been "the baby", and treated like a little prince by his parents (for as long as they lived), and probably this tradition carried on with the remaining staff and parental figures. Renly was more traditionally handsome than Stannis, and his personality developed into outgoing, easy to make friends, extrovert. Being so young in contrast to Stannis, Renly would have gotten away with more (maybe everything). This would make Stannis less likely to have a good opinion of Renly - and he didn't.

Maester Cresson discusses the "middle child" effect for Stannis in Cresson's brief appearance in Clash of Kings.

[Maxxine]

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

As for Renly taking the Crown. It's not a popular opinion but I'd argue that Renly likely didn't feel that he had a choice. He didn't know about the Twincest so the idea that his priggish, stubborn and dutiful older brother would usurp his nephew's Throne likely never even occurred him. Even if he did, Stannis was so unlikable, at that point, that he'd have struggled to hold the Throne, even with Renly's backing. At least that's how Renly would've seen it.

He knew his days were numbered with the Lannisters in control so supporting Joffrey was out. That left crowning himself as the only option he had.

Renly definitely had a choice. Considering he seemingly didn't know about the twincest, he really had no real reason to believe he should be king. The more that I think about the more random it is. I understand leaving KL, but he could've just went to SE and been left alone. He did not need to be king. I think having Renly on his side would've helped Stannis in the PR department. 

As far as the OP, I think it is a bit weird that Stannis and Renly seemed to have no bond because even if you don't like someone going through something like almost starving would seemingly bond you on some level. But it doesn't just go one way. You can't just blame Renly. Stannis threatened to kill Renly too (and on some level he did kill Renly).

[John Doe]

Stannis is Judge Dredd. 

 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Stannis was key in Robert's Rebellion, he held off the entire might of the Reach by with standing their siege allowing Robert to win at the Trident. If the 17 year old Stannis gives up and the Reach takes SE then move on to join the loyalist at the Trident then the loyalist most likely would have won in my opinion.

Stannis gets very little credit for this and gets passed over for SE by Robert, the Castle he held with the help of Ser. Davos. Not only does Renly never give Stannis any credit for this but he buddies up with the Tyrells, the people who almost starved him and Stannis out. Then he proceeds to take Mace Tyrell's son as a squire later in life finally granting a Tyrell access to Storm's End. Another slap in Stannis' face.

After the Iron Born surprise Tywin Lannister and burn Lannisport Stannis defeats Victarion and the Iron Born fleet once again allowing Robert to win the final battle and get all the glory. Does Renly ever give Stannis any praise for this? no instead he constantly makes fun of Stannis behind his back.

While Stannis has an odd nature he treats everyone equally while Renly kissed everyone's butt except Stannis'. Is Stannis bitter? Sure but doesn't he have every right to be?

 

 

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

Because, believe it or not, not everyone is a devout Fannis. Stannis is a grumpy old stiff who prioritises rules and order over just about everything, and has no idea how social-anything works. It's a chore interacting with him, especially for an outgoing, fun-loving guy like Renly.

Some people, like Ned and Jon, dislike but respect him, but that's because they value consistency and no-nonsense dealings. Renly has a different world-view. He sees the power in pragmatism, fluidity, and popularity. And seeing Stannis starving to death, and forcing everyone to starve with him, isn't going to change that - especially when his other brother is boozing, whoring, and smashing his way to the throne.