shardofNarsil

Tyrion's killing of Tywin was an over reaction?

64 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

@WSmith84No its still pretty cruel and horrific, not apologizing for Tywin on that count.  And if Tysha didn't choose this then the act is vile and evil in ways that cannot be stated - all outrage is due.  There is a lot of stuff in the books that are misdirects and only speculation, this is one where I think there is something more.  Just my opinion.  I get real defensive though because questioning the details of this act usually gets one labeled as a rape apologist.  There are good arguments on both sides as to what was Tysha's real identity and story, and I don't blame anyone for taking the text at face value - i often do.  But this seems too critical ans character forming tragically not to be something where the unreliability of the narrator is in play.  I empathize with Tyrion the character for all of his trauma, both inflicted by the cruelty of others and self inflicted.

Edited by Lucius Lovejoy
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I like Tywin as a character, but he got what he deserved.

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I'm not sure if the OP is a troll or not.

Tywin was a monster who deserve worse than what the imp gave him. I wish that he could have lived to see the downfall of his house.

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6 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

If Tywin hated whores so much then why was he sleeping with the one his son had?

#StopBeingaTywinApologist2017
#StopBlamingTyrion for the atrocities his father did to him 2000forever

It's not about whores its about discretion. Tywin had plenty of whores and no one seemed the wiser (or it was an amazing plant by Varys but that is crackpot)

Still Tyrion goes about hitting every whorehouse between the wall and Dorne. It doesn't present a good image for the Lannisters and that is what Tywin cares about, the reputation of the House.

5 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

@shardofNarsil don't waste your breath complaining about St. Tyrion here.  I very much doubt lots of the details Tyrion gives us about the Tysha story, and there's many of us who agree that maybe there is more than meets the eye (like maybe Tywin told her she could take the gold and the men or take nothing and leave, or maybe it was a setup between her and the men who were threatening her to hoodwink Tyrion into "saving" her and getting his gold) with lots of supporting evidence on our side, but people hate hearing anything that doesn't make Tywin evil and Tyrion godly on this forum.  I'm surprised no one has threatened to have 100 men rape you yet, they get really worked up about it.

LOL as Saint Tyrion.

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6 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

snip.

 

So I have to think there's a good chance your just trolling here. If not I think your analysis is pretty weak. You blow off tywin lifelong mistreatment of Tyrian and say it's okay because he was rich, which really makes no difference. Then you blame Tyrian for whoring because his father despised it. Well let's remember, Tyrian had never whored before tywin told him his wife was one and made him and all his guards sleep with her. After that I think Tyrian is justified in a "f**k tywin" attitude and sleeping with whores against his wishes. You also blame Tyrian for marrying below his station, let's remember he's a dwarf who is an insult to any noble lady his father might offer him to. He never had a good chance of getting married. They literally needed the girl to be a captive to agree. He wasn't throwing away much marrying for love. Plus he was only 13... You also suggest he forced her to marry which we have ZERO indication of, especially knowing Tyron's personality.

More importantly though, Tyrion didn't kill tywin, tywin did. Tyrion told him if he said whore again he was gonna kill him. A Lannister always pays his debt. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

It's not about whores its about discretion. Tywin had plenty of whores and no one seemed the wiser (or it was an amazing plant by Varys but that is crackpot)

Still Tyrion goes about hitting every whorehouse between the wall and Dorne. It doesn't present a good image for the Lannisters and that is what Tywin cares about, the reputation of the House.

There's actually very little in the books about Tyrion frequenting whorehouses. At least since the first book. Unlike show Tyrion, who we're introduced to in a Winterfell whorehouse, book Tyrion appears to be much more discreet. He says he hasn't been with anyone for over a year when he meets Shae.  

It's incredibly common for lords to have whores or paramours on the side. Especially young, unmarried lords. But Tywin's obsession with Tyrion goes beyond his "honor." He seems to genuinely get some amusement out of squashing his son's happiness, and we see this with other things beside whores. A Lannister discreetly keeping a bed warmer on the side is not a scandalous subject, and we know it isn't because Tywin does the same.

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3 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

So I have to think there's a good chance your just trolling here.

Oh please.

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Well let's remember, Tyrian had never whored before tywin told him his wife was one and made him and all his guards sleep with her. After that I think Tyrian is justified in a "f**k tywin" attitude and sleeping with whores against his wishes. 

Try to remember this ,Tywin's father Tytos shamed house Lannister by keeping a whore and even allowed her to sit in the high seat at the place of their mother and affect his decision making.During all this Tywin was just a teenager and that caused him to have a deep seated suspicion of lowborns trying to marry-off with a mainline Lannister.

Tysha fit this role perfectly and Tywin had no way of knowing her intentions ;Tywin Lannsiter never took half-measures,he had to teach Tyrion a harsh lesson because otherwise he might have just blundered again and in those times house honor was everything.

Again not condoning rape but Tyrion's killing of Tywin.

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You also blame Tyrian for marrying below his station, let's remember he's a dwarf who is an insult to any noble lady his father might offer him to. He never had a good chance of getting married. They literally needed the girl to be a captive to agree. He wasn't throwing away much marrying for love.

Well it wasn't his decision to make,in feudal societies marriages are used to make alliances ,alliances which are necessary to keep peace and avoid wars so it is a duty of a highborn to yield to his family's  wishes to maintain stability.

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Plus he was only 13.

Either he was self conscious about his place in westeros hierarchy or he was only 13 ,decide first.

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You also suggest he forced her to marry which we have ZERO indication of, especially knowing Tyron's personality.

You do know that the small-folks are terrified of highborns right ,especially of someone like Tywin,so tell me this what is a lowborn girl to do ,submit to this son of Lord Tywin  and go along with it OR try to resist and get raped and murdered in the process.

She must have heard tales of what happens when a highborn has their eyes set on a lowborn girl ,ofttimes they get raped and then set aside or worse and Tyrion was already infamous throughout the 7k because he was a dwarf as told by Oberyn.

Common people in those days didn't had much of a choice as we see Roose Bolton raping an  innocent woman and killing her husband for no reason at all,they are terrified to speak against their lords and they can only hope to get any justice only if their Lord Paramount is a just man like Stannis or Rickard Stark but in this case it was the Lord's son himself who was the perpetrator that didn't left much choice for the poor girl.

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5 hours ago, FreeWifi said:

I'm not sure if the OP is a troll or not.

Tywin was a monster who deserve worse than what the imp gave him. I wish that he could have lived to see the downfall of his house.

Tywin did all  those things for the glory of his house .He had to see his father and family being mocked and made fun of by their subjects so he had to be extra careful about dealing with weakness in his family,you can say it was Tywin's weakness.

Again Tywin is not a sadist like The Mountain ,Biter or Ramsay his actions always have some reasons like Stannis burning people.

The reason Tywin is so hated is because he was the main villain during the war ,when in fact all he did was justified and a rule under Tywin's leadership is preferable to everyone else's except Stannis's.

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13 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

Tywin did all  those things for the glory of his house .He had to see his father and family being mocked and made fun of by their subjects so he had to be extra careful about dealing with weakness in his family,you can say it was Tywin's weakness.

Again Tywin is not a sadist like The Mountain ,Biter or Ramsay his actions always have some reasons like Stannis burning people.

The reason Tywin is so hated is because he was the main villain during the war ,when in fact all he did was justified and a rule under Tywin's leadership is preferable to everyone else's except Stannis's.

How can anything that Tywin did(except putting down the Reynes and Tarbeck Rebellion though not to that extent that he did)be justified? 

How do you justify the gangrape of a 14yr old girl because she married above her station? How do you justify his sexual abuse of his father's mistress because she overreached? What about him attacking the Riverlands/smallfolk and setting the likes of Gregor upon them because a Tully took a son he doesn't give a damn about? What about Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon? The sack of Kings Landing? His abuse against Tyrion because he blames him unfairly for Joanna's death? 

Tywin is hated because he's petty, a misogynist, a rapist, abusive, disgusting most evil character in this series. And no his rule is not preferable when he views people not named Lannister as expendable, worthless and his to rape, terrorize and murder as he sees fit. 

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8 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Most lords? Randyl Tarly maybe, but I never got the impression that most lords would have killed a lowborn for marrying their son. Also, Tyrion was, what, 13/14 when he married Tysha? How was anyone, let alone a teenager, supposed to predict Tywin would order her to be raped by 100 men + Tyrion? That's an excessively cruel act for such a minor offence.

No one could've known what Tywin could have done but if we don't even know it was 100 people or 10 Tyrion may be misremembering .

Also what did Tyrion thought was gonna happen after his whole childhood he saw Tywin obsessing over Lannister honor?

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 what does it matter if Tysha married Tyrion for his money? That's no justification for being raped repeat repeatedly. That's sick, and an exaggeration to say that's the norm in Westeros.

Nobody is saying the rape was justified ,only that Tywin's murder was an over-reaction,all this time Tywin could have killed Tyrion after all he is responsible although involuntarily for the death of Tywin's on true love.But no he didn't and in killing him Tyrion proved himself the vilest of all Lannisters -a Monster ,a kinslayer.

If it was hard for Tyrion to lose Tysha imagine Tywin's feeling when the love of his life, his sweetheart ,his beloved ,his Better Half ,his world was taken from him after only 10 yrs of marriage .

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1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

How can anything that Tywin did(except putting down the Reynes and Tarbeck Rebellion though not to that extent that he did)be justified? 

How do you justify the gangrape of a 14yr old girl because she married above her station? How do you justify his sexual abuse of his father's mistress because she overreached? What about him attacking the Riverlands/smallfolk and setting the likes of Gregor upon them because a Tully took a son he doesn't give a damn about? What about Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon? The sack of Kings Landing? His abuse against Tyrion because he blames him unfairly for Joanna's death? 

Tywin is hated because he's petty, a misogynist, a rapist, abusive, disgusting most evil character in this series. And no his rule is not preferable when he views people not named Lannister as expendable, worthless and his to rape, terrorize and murder as he sees fit. 

I am not condoning the rape that was indeed heinous ,but the war was justified ,Catelyn insulted House Lannister by judging a son of Tywin ,something  that only a  king can do.

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11 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

In every Tyrion chapter he complains how his life is hard as a dwarf and a son of Tywin when in fact he enjoys luxuries very few people in the world enjoys.He knows about Tywin's hatred of prostitutes because of Tytos even then he takes no heed and keep doing the things Tywin hates the most.He most stupidly marries the first girl that shows any affection to him without thinking about the consequences.He knows that Tywin has a particular mistrust and hatred for lowborn women trying to marry the Lannisters mostly because of how his father was coaxed by his mistress which was in Tywin's eyes was an insult not only to the honor of House Lannister but to the memory of his mother as well.

He must have known he was a source of disgrace for the House Lannister and Tywin just by being a dwarf in the world of Westeros where House honor is everything even then he got the top-notch education a man can get in Westeros along with the comfortable life of a highborn.He should have shown some appreciation for Tywin or should have atleast tried to look at things from his perspective .

Well, it cuts both ways. Tywin must have known that the short fella with the crossbow was a tad upset. He should have at least tried to look at things from his perspective. Did he? Nope, he did not. Twang! B)

11 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

And if he hated Tywin so much he should have taken the black instead of enjoying the privileges granted to him only because of Tywin.

Tywin being Tywin went  for the harshest measure to teach Tyrion the hard lesson about whores .

And Tyrion being Tyrion used some "harsh measures" of his own to let his Lord Father know that his didactic techniques were misaimed and counter-productive. Apparently that's how they communicate in this family. Now, thankfully, Tyrion and Tywin cleared the air between them, and can continue their relationship on a healthier note.

Your objections seem unreasonable. If a brutal gang rape had been apparently acceptable, then what's so fucking wrong with one, single, small crossbow bolt?

11 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

But Tyrion like the sad guy he is never quite learned his lesson and even when Tywin tried to show some appreciation for his limited but important abilities by giving him the important job of being the Hand he was still thankless.

And after Jaime tells him about Tysha he goes all misty-eyed.Even though he is responsible for their marriage and most lords of Westeros would have killed her whereas Tywin after his  twisted lesson actually lets her live.

I mean do we even know if she had a choice in marrying him,him being the son of Lord Tywin and her being so poor and orphan .For all we know Tyrion being loved by a girl for the first time was so excited he made her marry him.And at that time he was about 13-14  and he might have just added some details subconsciously over the years  to conform to his idealised fantasy.

 

You apparently missed the fact that Tyrion had always believed that Tysha had been a whore hired by Jaime, the whole "marriage" had been a joke and his expense, and that that hadn't been the case was a genuine shock for him.

So the problem is not only with your interpretation, but even with your facts.

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5 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

It's not about whores its about discretion. Tywin had plenty of whores and no one seemed the wiser (or it was an amazing plant by Varys but that is crackpot)

Still Tyrion goes about hitting every whorehouse between the wall and Dorne. It doesn't present a good image for the Lannisters and that is what Tywin cares about, the reputation of the House.

I know he's been to Chataya's (and that as a cover story), but beside it?

And if it's about reputation, then who, except Tywin, ever mentions Tyrion's sex life? Who gives a grumkin's ass?

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4 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Your objections seem unreasonable. If a brutal gang rape had been apparently acceptable, then what's so fucking wrong with one, single, small crossbow bolt?

So a simple ear to ear bloody smile on Tyrion's face would've been alright after he just killed Tywin's one and only true love,but instead Tywin tried to raise him into a responsible adult ,dutiful to his family and also  let the whore walk .But Tyrion proved himslelf the lesser of the two by killing Tywin,and becoming the monster he is a kinslayer.

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10 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I know he's been to Chataya's (and that as a cover story), but beside it?

And if it's about reputation, then who, except Tywin, ever mentions Tyrion's sex life? Who gives a grumkin's ass?

And being a whore-monger is so nice for the reputation of your house.Add to that Tyrion was bloody useless to Tywin but he still didn't sent him to the wall or arranged an accident .

The dwarf regularly gets checked by Cersei and she isn't even the brightest Lannister,Tywin always had the choice to kick him to the curb but still he kept him under his protection and then Tyrion  outdid Theon and turned on his father.

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24 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

You apparently missed the fact that Tyrion had always believed that Tysha had been a whore hired by Jaime, the whole "marriage" had been a joke and his expense, and that that hadn't been the case was a genuine shock for him.

So the problem is not only with your interpretation, but even with your facts.

Few things in the books are "facts" and everything is open to interpretation but you are welcome to your approach.

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You do know that the small-folks are terrified of highborns right ,especially of someone like Tywin,so tell me this what is a lowborn girl to do ,submit to this son of Lord Tywin  and go along with it OR try to resist and get raped and murdered in the process.

She must have heard tales of what happens when a highborn has their eyes set on a lowborn girl ,ofttimes they get raped and then set aside or worse and Tyrion was already infamous throughout the 7k because he was a dwarf as told by Oberyn.

Common people in those days didn't had much of a choice as we see Roose Bolton raping an  innocent woman and killing her husband for no reason at all,they are terrified to speak against their lords and they can only hope to get any justice only if their Lord Paramount is a just man like Stannis or Rickard Stark but in this case it was the Lord's son himself who was the perpetrator that didn't left much choice for the poor girl.

 

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So a victim who has suffered from abuse his whole life is over reacting?

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"After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she …" The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness. "Lord Tywin had me go last," he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more."

After a time he heard the noise again, the rasp of steel on stone as Bronn sharpened his sword. "Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me."

Tyrion swung around to face him. "You may get that chance one day. Remember what I told you. A Lannister always pays his debts."

- Tyrion VI, AGOT

Apparently even Bronn has more sense than some posters here.

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3 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

Tywin did all  those things for the glory of his house .He had to see his father and family being mocked and made fun of by their subjects so he had to be extra careful about dealing with weakness in his family,you can say it was Tywin's weakness.

Again Tywin is not a sadist like The Mountain ,Biter or Ramsay his actions always have some reasons like Stannis burning people.

The reason Tywin is so hated is because he was the main villain during the war ,when in fact all he did was justified and a rule under Tywin's leadership is preferable to everyone else's except Stannis's.

Tywin is hated because he is a war criminal and a sadist. 

You use the phrase "for the honor of his house" as an excuse to overlook some of Tywin's baser qualities. Tywin overlooked the rape of his good daughter for the honor of his house.

he ordered the murder of Aegon and Rhanys for the honor of his house.

he orchestrated the rape and murder of thousands in the riverlands for the honour of his house.

When I first started posting to this board I was amused and slightly annoyed at how many people would overlook Tywin's brutality while simultaneously downplaying other characters such as Dany or Jon, who would never order the deaths of children for the honor of their house. 

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