S. OF HOUSE STARK

Is Sansa threatened by Ayra?

137 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, xjlxking said:

Of course not

 

shes probably going to raise an issue to it to challenge his authority

Well, of course it would be HUMONGOUS issue, regardless of who is at the position of Lord/Lady of Winterfell. Doing that, without consulting anyone, would be a new level of idiocy.

1 hour ago, plastic throne said:

The fact that three people got three different reads on Sansa's reaction only tells me that she did a poor job portraying that emotion. Nothing else.

You can say that for almost any actor. When it comes to certain things, people have different opinions and POV. That said, Miss Turner does have enigmatic face which is sometimes too bland for my taste. On the other hand, that look is something Sansa has been accused of throughout the books.

 

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1 hour ago, plastic throne said:

The fact that three people got three different reads on Sansa's reaction only tells me that she did a poor job portraying that emotion. Nothing else.

Why should she be transparent in her feelings? Of course actors generally over-emote for the the purpose of the narrative, but it's not bad to have an occasional character whose inner feelings are uncertain. I doubt that Sophie T. failed to portray the intended emotion here because GoT is too high quality of a production. They can afford a hundred takes of the same scene if needed.

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On ‎07‎.‎08‎.‎2017 at 0:35 PM, S. OF HOUSE STARK said:

I found the scene with Ayra, Brienne and Sansa jarring -- why was Sansa looking at Ayra that way? Is she threatened by Ayra as well as Jon now, or? I kept waiting for the moment her face would break out into a proud sisterly smile at seeing her little sister fight because that would have been the response that would have made the most sense to me. Instead she looked over the situation with disapproval/jealousy/scorn/idk? It didn't work because I couldn't understand the reason for conflict. 

Sansa first looked uneasy when Arya mentioned her kill list, so I think it's more about seeing her little sister really appearing like a capable killer (especially after Bran mentioned the crossroads scene).

Of course, Sansa being disturbed by someone being a killer is ridiculous for many reasons, but hey, we've already accustomed with ridiculous here.

In my own little world Sansa was just thinking: 'oh gosh, what an annoying effing Mary Sue, is he slaying the Night King, Gregor Clegane or just a dragon in the next episode?'.

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I pretty much agree with you here.  Yes, an apology mainly on Sansa's part but also perhaps on Arya's for having considered her so stupid would have been in order and I agree that the writers are trying to keep the audience in suspense especially regarding LF.  I tend to think that on a series with a huge budget like this (okay maybe not so much for wolves and dragons and battles) but certainly for takes, if the directors thought that Sophie was getting the look wrong, they would make her do it again till she got it right so personally I think what we see in the acting (for all the characters) is what they were going for.

With regard to Sansa hiding from Jon that she had sought LF's help to me is due to the fact that Jon would have refuse to accept "his" help or that Sansa certainly thought he would react like that.  There is an element of mistrust but I don't see it as mistrust in "oh, I suspect you could betray me" but more as "I am doubting your skills getting this right," if this makes any sense.  I think this is going to be true in the whole of the dynamics between all the Stark siblings and Jon but I think aside showing us that all families have issues, even the nicest families, the show runners are definitely going for LF trying to take advantage of what is not really that abnormal in even relatively healthy family dynamics.

The laughing at the list well, it does sound like a joke at first, however Sansa knows Arya is impulsive and into action more than words so I wouldn't even discard the possibility of nervous laughter.  Then when she realises, after what Bran said and after she saw her actual level of skill, OMG Arya is likely to have been serious!

I know it is arguable that Sansa got Ramsay killed in a pretty gruesome way and it is true that most of the people Arya has killed deserved it or it was necessary for her self preservation (I draw the line at the deserter from the NW who she had no quarrel with though) but again I am not going to judge a character based on one act I did not like...  At this point most main characters have killed someone.  I think the main difference with Arya is that Arya doesn't do it from pragmatic reasons or just sheer revenge but that she has taken in upon herself to rid Planetos of all undesirables (in her mind) that she can come across and I think maybe this is what frightens people, although it is fair to say that Sansa at this point is unlikely to know this.

Yes, just a conversation between them would be nice. But I agree "the Look" was deliberate and the writers would have had Sophie redo it, or just not edited the cut to focus on Sansa's reaction so much. 

I don't think there was much in-universe justification for Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale army - not when he told her straight out "we have no more men! Unless you know about more men then we're going into battle." It just done for audience suspense even if it butchered the characters. Shock value over characterization. They also dumbed Jon down in having him charge at Ramsay alone after Rickon's rather than sticking to the battle plan. I get Jon was emotional, but he's been portrayed as a capable commander and is able to set his emotions aside during battle - sending Grenn to his death, choosing the Watch over Ygritte etc. - again they did it for shock value or to justify why Sansa didn't think Jon was smart enough to know intel.

Basically, while Battle of the Bastards was a cool battle scene, it was a nightmare for characterization managing to portray Jon as a moron and Sansa's dubiously manipulative. I think we just have to accept the "writers just needed a shock entrance from the Vale army" explanation and don't think about it in-universe.

Tbh, neither Sansa and Arya have crossed some unspeakable line with their killing imo. In our 21st Century Western world sure, but not by the standards of Westeros. I mean Ramsay had to be executed for his many crimes (kinslaying, murdering however many people etc.) Why not have him killed the way he killed so many others. Like you said, almost everyone in the cast has killed and I don't view Jon or Davos or Brienne as too far gone. Sansa hasn't made a habit of throwing anyone who spills her drink to the dogs. 

Arya has moved on from just killing for survival, but I agree that with what you said, and that she's driven by justice rather than sadism or wanting power. Honestly, her attempts to be an assassin prove that she's not a senseless killer rather vice versa. She needs to know the person deserves to die, that there's justice behind it and just could not deal with the Faceless "we just kill, we don't judge." It actually cracks me up that she literally gets an assassination and is like "Why does she have to die? She seems nice" or "Wait, wait I know someone much better to kill!" Like, you're failing Assassin School 101 there Arya. 

I didn't mind the NW kill in the books - she was only following what Ned did right at the beginning  and it was the "Westeros/Northern version of justice she'd grown up with. Though from the readers perspectives neither NW character, particularly the original ranger Ned executed, deserved to die. But in Arya's worldview it wasn't crossing a particular moral line. But I get why they removed it from the show as it was a complicated situation.

8 hours ago, Xarkar said:

Seems to me she is playing the same old Sansa role.

IE creating conflict when there shouldnt be any.

 

The Smirk that LF gave her was all I needed.  She is looking "jealous" that she is now not the ONLY one Brianne has to serve.

 

Regardless of that I suspect it will mean nothing.

7 hours ago, Illiterati said:

Or the showrunners are being purposely opaque with her, which wouldn't surprise me a bit.

Basically yep. I wonder if the reason they had Sansa as the one who joined up with most of the other Starks first was because the writers knew she was the one  the audience might believe would betray her siblings. (Which says something about how harshly fans judge her, given all the Starklings are much darker now).

But Jon's character is too unambiguously heroic to truly convince people he'd betray his siblings (unless they wrote that he came back super dark I guess), if they'd put Arya in Sansa's s6/7 role, no one would buy Arya would betray Jon given they were so close and original recipe Bran was way too sweet. Maybe 3-Eyed-Raven Bran might, but not on a personal, power-hungry level. The writers seem to have selected Sansa to misdirect and cast doubt because they think people will buy it.

(Idk why a lot people have always been more suspicious of Sansa than other Starks. I know I can fall into suspecting her too fast which I'm trying to work on. Because she kinda betrayed Arya way back in s1? Because of her time in KL playing the game? Because of Littlefinger's influence? For whatever reason fans are pretty ready to doubt Sansa's motives. So the showrunners plan is working I guess??)

 

Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

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Im more than sure its the shocked look of how your little tomboyish sister is not that anymore. She is a legit assassin now, who have actually killed people before. Thats a lot to accept in a very short amount of time. Lets see Sansa face when she finds out that Arya took out house Frey all by herself..

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10 hours ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

 

(Idk why a lot people have always been more suspicious of Sansa than other Starks. I know I can fall into suspecting her too fast which I'm trying to work on. Because she kinda betrayed Arya way back in s1? Because of her time in KL playing the game? Because of Littlefinger's influence? For whatever reason fans are pretty ready to doubt Sansa's motives. So the showrunners plan is working I guess??)

 

She was the only Stark, that wanted a southern life.  Remember how all she wanted was to marry Joffrey.  There was the one scene with her where she said she dreamed her entire life of going south and getting out of WF, now all she wants in the world is to go home (to WF).

It is harder to believe any of the others would turn simply because they have always been more "Stark" than Sansa was (originally).  

 

Will she care if Jon bends the knee?  Honestly i dont know.  I really dont think they will care.  The north generally goes about its own business, and as long as the south leaves them be, who cares who sits on the Iron Throne.  Remember that Ned could have taken the IT, but instead simply let Robert take it.  Ned had a duty to go back North.  Just like Jon/Sansa/Arya/Bran etc will. 

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20 hours ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

(Idk why a lot people have always been more suspicious of Sansa than other Starks. I know I can fall into suspecting her too fast which I'm trying to work on. Because she kinda betrayed Arya way back in s1? Because of her time in KL playing the game? Because of Littlefinger's influence? For whatever reason fans are pretty ready to doubt Sansa's motives. So the showrunners plan is working I guess??)

 

Well, for one reason, Sansa did actually betray Ned to Cersei.  Yes, Sansa was young, in love with Joffrey, and not aware of the ramifications of her act, but she did not want to leave leave Kings Landing, and so told Cersei that Ned was going to make her and Arya leave.  Cersei did not know this until Sansa told her.  Another reason is when Sansa deliberately lied to Yohn Royce about how swell LF is.  

I think that is why folks are quicker to blame Sansa.  However, a value neutral opinion might be that Sansa has a resting opaque face.  Like some people have resting bitch face, Sansa's face relaxes into vagueness.  It is very hard to read but it is one of the few ways viewers have of determining her intent and feelings.  I am a viewer who thought she looked jealous too but I could not make that logical.  Why would Sansa be jealouse of Arya's skills?  I guess that is why Sansa is not a favorite character of mine on the tv show.  She is just too much work.  Arya is far more clear and direct. 

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Posted (edited)

43 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Well, for one reason, Sansa did actually betray Ned to Cersei.  Yes, Sansa was young, in love with Joffrey, and not aware of the ramifications of her act, but she did not want to leave leave Kings Landing, and so told Cersei that Ned was going to make her and Arya leave.  Cersei did not know this until Sansa told her.  Another reason is when Sansa deliberately lied to Yohn Royce about how swell LF is.  

I think that is why folks are quicker to blame Sansa.  However, a value neutral opinion might be that Sansa has a resting opaque face.  Like some people have resting bitch face, Sansa's face relaxes into vagueness.  It is very hard to read but it is one of the few ways viewers have of determining her intent and feelings.  I am a viewer who thought she looked jealous too but I could not make that logical.  Why would Sansa be jealouse of Arya's skills?  I guess that is why Sansa is not a favorite character of mine on the tv show.  She is just too much work.  Arya is far more clear and direct. 

Sansa has only become somewhat opaque recently. Her emotions were as clear to see as Arya's in early seasons. Her timidity with Cersei, fear of the Hound, terror and sadness with Joffrey etc were clear for all to see.

Arya now is less emotional than she used to be also. Instead of her feisty outbursts of season 1-4, she is more controlled yet also more distant and abrupt (like the Hound). Maisie still does an amazing job of conveying Arya's internal struggles though, despite being very different person now.

With Sansa, I am unsire whether her more extreme opaqueness at times is deliberate on part of writers or is simply a failure on part of Sophie Turner (who has never been as great at expressing emotion in her acting) to convey emotions intended by writers.

 

Edited by Gaz0680

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On 8/9/2017 at 11:34 AM, Panther2000 said:

I think that she is in a bit.    I do believe that Sansa is happy to see her family again., being in Winterfell.  However,  I did not miss that look that she gave when Araya said, that Brienne was to take care of BOTH HER & SANSA.  I think that Sansa feels that Brienne was HER personal Bodyguard/Knight.  But now she knows that Brienne isn't hers alone.  Brienne also belongs to Araya( thought Araya doesn't need it).  Then seeing Araya & Brienne fighting.  

I think that Sansa maybe feeling a bit of self doubt.   Jon, Araya & Bran have come home truly different people.   Their changes are both Mental & Physical.  Meanwhile with all her drama & abuse that she too suffered,  she is playing a Game.  She has to have others do her bidding for her.   I think that she is feeling a bit leftout.     Littlefinger sees this also,  The look that Sansa gave once she tied( she is not beat Brienne) in battle.  She walked away( she now knows that Araya was telling the truth about killing people)  bran giving Araya that Dager did not help Sansa feel any better. 

 

Sansa is a bit Jelly of Araya & Bran.   But she will have her part to play

 

I think on a primal level, Sansa begrudges Brienne's loyalty being given to Arya as well as herself, at least the concept of Brienne serving both of them equally.  Sansa was in terrible danger when Brienne and Pod came to save the day (mostly Brienne) and the lives of Sansa and Theon.  At the time, Sansa was physically and emotionally in shock and slowly came back as she accepted Brienne's fealty and pledged hers as Brienne's liege.  Brienne's presence and loyalty was to Sansa alone; and it is probably the first time that someone has pledged their permanent devotion to Sansa without other agendas or loyalties - I think this would make Sansa feel stronger, and more reassured.  No matter what happens, she will at least have one strong fighter who will guard her.  Then Arya breezes back into Winterfell, Arya who was Sansa's annoying little sister; and ten minutes later she's claiming that Brienne owes service to her as well, and sparring with her as an equal.  Sansa is possibly feeling some sibling rivalry; isn't that just like an annoying little sister, borrowing one's clothing or favorite toy or one's devoted protector-knight; as well as feeling emotionally less secure now that Arya has demanded to share Brienne's service as her right.

I don't think there's going to be any lasting rift between Sansa and Arya over Brienne; but the sisters will have to readjust to their new roles in Winterfell.  Arya is no longer "Arya Underfoot", she is a warrior and assassin and something of a loose cannon; Sansa is at least temporarily Lady of Winterfell and holding/maintaining Winterfell for Jon and the North and she is also having to hold Littlefinger at bay while keeping the Vale Knights enlisted in Stark interests and thinking about how to deal with the potential of hostile Lannister actions at some point.  They need to talk more, get through their past differences and find common ground and they need to do it soon.

I don't quite understand how Arya can claim that Brienne serves her.  It's true that Catelyn wanted Brienne to save her daughters; and Brienne did pledge herself to Catelyn's service.  But Brienne has formally pledged fealty not to House Stark, but to Sansa and Sansa alone.  I don't think she can pledge herself to two mistresses.  Brienne or Sansa should let Arya know that Brienne is loyal to Sansa first and has pledged fealty to her.

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I dont think Sansa's look after the duel and walking away had anything to do with Arya's comment to Brienne about serving both sisters.

That comment and then Brienne nodding to it was simply more bad writing from D&D that completely ignored everything that came before it.

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Posted (edited)

On 8/12/2017 at 2:54 AM, Xarkar said:

She was the only Stark, that wanted a southern life.  Remember how all she wanted was to marry Joffrey.  There was the one scene with her where she said she dreamed her entire life of going south and getting out of WF, now all she wants in the world is to go home (to WF).

It is harder to believe any of the others would turn simply because they have always been more "Stark" than Sansa was (originally).  

On 8/12/2017 at 0:23 PM, lakin1013 said:

Well, for one reason, Sansa did actually betray Ned to Cersei.  Yes, Sansa was young, in love with Joffrey, and not aware of the ramifications of her act, but she did not want to leave leave Kings Landing, and so told Cersei that Ned was going to make her and Arya leave.  Cersei did not know this until Sansa told her.  Another reason is when Sansa deliberately lied to Yohn Royce about how swell LF is.  

I think that is why folks are quicker to blame Sansa.  However, a value neutral opinion might be that Sansa has a resting opaque face.  Like some people have resting bitch face, Sansa's face relaxes into vagueness.  It is very hard to read but it is one of the few ways viewers have of determining her intent and feelings.  I am a viewer who thought she looked jealous too but I could not make that logical.  Why would Sansa be jealouse of Arya's skills?  I guess that is why Sansa is not a favorite character of mine on the tv show.  She is just too much work.  Arya is far more clear and direct. 

That's true. So much time has passed and Sansa has been so desperate to get home for a long time that it's easy to forget that - from her siblings perspectives - Sansa was the one who never cared about the North. Especially in comparison to the remaining Stark siblings: Jon and Arya were as Northern as they come and disliked the South/Lannisters from the get go. But they would have grown up with "WF sucks, the South rules" from Sansa. 

(The Southern aspect is why - while I don't think Sansa will betray the Stark - her becoming Queen of the North would make so little sense). 

Did they keep Sansa betraying Ned to Cersei in the show? I honestly can't remember. Either way, I think that Sansa needs to apologize for both the Mycah and Cersei incidents. While she's not the only Stark to make a stupid mistakes due to naivety  - hi, Robb and Ned - she was also driven by selfishness and ambition while none of the others have been. The audience has seen her grow from that, the other Stark siblings - particularly Arya - haven't. 

But agree that Sansa's character has always suffered from Sansa having a resting bitch face. That was a frustration when she was at KL. (I think ST is a great actress, especially given how young she is but Maisie Williams is better at communicating nuance and emotion through her facial expressions even when her character is acting stoic or hiding things). 

Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

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On ‎11‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 9:00 AM, Monster_Under_the_Bed said:

Why should she be transparent in her feelings? Of course actors generally over-emote for the the purpose of the narrative, but it's not bad to have an occasional character whose inner feelings are uncertain. I doubt that Sophie T. failed to portray the intended emotion here because GoT is too high quality of a production. They can afford a hundred takes of the same scene if needed.

There is nothing wrong with an actor - character hiding their intent from another character, however the audience should always be able to understand the characters objective. Actors do not over emote for screen, in fact you need to pull back big time for screen. It should be an indication. Generally on a tv production three takes would be the given, there is no way they would give Sophie Turner 100 takes to get it right. They are not going to hold up a massive production like GoT for the likes of Sophie or any other actor.

IMO she failed not to emote, but to indicate clearly what she was feeling in that moment after the fight with Brienne and Arya.       

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8 hours ago, princess_snow said:

There is nothing wrong with an actor - character hiding their intent from another character, however the audience should always be able to understand the characters objective. Actors do not over emote for screen, in fact you need to pull back big time for screen. It should be an indication. Generally on a tv production three takes would be the given, there is no way they would give Sophie Turner 100 takes to get it right. They are not going to hold up a massive production like GoT for the likes of Sophie or any other actor.

IMO she failed not to emote, but to indicate clearly what she was feeling in that moment after the fight with Brienne and Arya.       

Actors obviously over emote. Just to give an example involving Sansa, since we are talking about her; in a realistic setting, do you think that she would cast a knowing glance at LF when Jon was proclaimed as KitN? In a room full of northern power brokers who would all be carefully studying her reactions? Obviously not. It was done specifically for the screen so that the viewers would know that she is conflicted. Realistically she would act pleased and externally happy to keep up appearances.

As for the number of takes, hundreds is an obvious hyperbole, as even the most inept actor in the world could at least approximate the feelings expected from him or her in just a few attempts. I still think that her ambiguous demeanor suggests that she is fighting an inner struggle and the outcome of that struggle will have a big impact on future events.

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10 hours ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

That's true. So much time has passed and Sansa has been so desperate to get home for a long time that it's easy to forget that - from her siblings perspectives - Sansa was the one who never cared about the North. Especially in comparison to the remaining Stark siblings: Jon and Arya were as Northern as they come and disliked the South/Lannisters from the get go. But they would have grown up with "WF sucks, the South rules" from Sansa. 

(The Southern aspect is why - while I don't think Sansa will betray the Stark - her becoming Queen of the North would make so little sense). 

Did they keep Sansa betraying Ned to Cersei in the show? I honestly can't remember. Either way, I think that Sansa needs to apologize for both the Mycah and Cersei incidents. While she's not the only Stark to make a stupid mistakes due to naivety  - hi, Robb and Ned - she was also driven by selfishness and ambition while none of the others have been. The audience has seen her grow from that, the other Stark siblings - particularly Arya - haven't. 

But agree that Sansa's character has always suffered from Sansa having a resting bitch face. That was a frustration when she was at KL. (I think ST is a great actress, especially given how young she is but Maisie Williams is better at communicating nuance and emotion through her facial expressions even when her character is acting stoic or hiding things). 

1. Sansa always cared for the North, not in terms of the ruling or own ambitions, but North, for her, is her family. That is what it means for her. North is her home. She may have different views on things, but that is where she literally draws strength from. Throughout the books and the show, we see her being connected to Winterfell and North very deeply (just that snow castle scene speaks for itself). Sansa may wanted to leave North and become Queen, but then again Bran wanted to be a knight (in the books) and Arya wanted to have adventures all over the world. Children grow :D

2. No, in the show, her indiscretion didn't happen.

3. Sansa can't apologize for Mycah, as her testimony didn't kill him. Hound was already on the road and Mycah was already dead by the time Sansa was brought in front of Robert. As for that incident, she lost Lady, so I suppose the apologies here are unnecessary (though in books, I would argue for a bit of talk between them about everything)

 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Risto said:

1. Sansa always cared for the North, not in terms of the ruling or own ambitions, but North, for her, is her family. That is what it means for her. North is her home. She may have different views on things, but that is where she literally draws strength from. Throughout the books and the show, we see her being connected to Winterfell and North very deeply (just that snow castle scene speaks for itself). Sansa may wanted to leave North and become Queen, but then again Bran wanted to be a knight (in the books) and Arya wanted to have adventures all over the world. Children grow :D

2. No, in the show, her indiscretion didn't happen.

3. Sansa can't apologize for Mycah, as her testimony didn't kill him. Hound was already on the road and Mycah was already dead by the time Sansa was brought in front of Robert. As for that incident, she lost Lady, so I suppose the apologies here are unnecessary (though in books, I would argue for a bit of talk between them about everything)

 

1. If you read further up we were talking about the Starks as children, in the context of why so many of the audience are willing to believe Sansa could betray the Stark's even when it's clear she won't. So in terms of Arya/Jon/Bran's perspective of Sansa back then and how they remember her. Not Sansa now. And Sansa herself admits in the show that as a child all she wanted to do was leave WF and go South. She was the Stark least interested in Northern ways. Most of s1/book 1 is about her rejecting the North and embracing the South. During the books that clearly changes, she grows to appreciate the North, wants to go home and cares fiercely about it by s7. But that doesn't change her original position or how her siblings may perceive her. They haven't seen the journey she went on and need to reconnect. Just like Sansa doesn't know Arya has had quite enough of adventures. (And while Arya wanted adventures and Bran knighthood, they were never as dismissive about the North as Sansa was when they were kids. And neither of their dreams involved leaving the North forever the way Sansa's did). 

2. Ah good, I couldn't remember if it did. That makes sense with the character being aged up and it being less believable a 13 year old would be that naive. That does soften whatever issues she and Arya have to talk out. 

3. No Sansa's testimony didn't kill Mycah, he was already dead by the time she spoke. But she didn't know that. The trial happened, then Ned went outside and found Sandor with Mycah's body. She didn't know Sandor had already killed him. From Sansa's perspective she was called up knowing her testimony would determine whether Arya/Mycah/Nymeria or Joffrey was responsible for starting the fight. And that testimony was meant to determine who Robert would punish. For all Sansa knew her testimony WAS the difference between an innocent boy being killed/having his hand chopped off for striking a royal. (Not to mention how her own sister would be punished). And she chose to lie and not back Arya up, knowing full well it could harm Mycah. 

I get she was 11/13, pulled between her family and betrothed, that Ned handled the situation like shit, that Cersei was never going to play fair, Robert was too lazy to acknowledge that of course he knew his son was to blame and that punishing Lady was illogical and unjust. But from Sansa's perspective, during the trial itself she still believed Cersei to be good and had just witnessed Joffrey try to kill her own sister and maim an innocent. And she lied. And she had to know that was risking Mycah's life. And while other noble families raised their kids not to care about lowborns, Ned Stark sure as hell didn't. We see the rest of the Stark kids valuing the lives of those below them due to their father's teachings - Arya the most obviously given that's her mo, but also Bran at WF, Robb with his men, Jon at the Wall - it wasn't that Sansa didn't know that what she was doing was wrong. So yes, I think she at least needs to apologise to Arya for endangering an innocent boy and betraying her sister, for Joffrey. 

Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

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Posted (edited)

On 12/08/2017 at 2:23 AM, lakin1013 said:

Well, for one reason, Sansa did actually betray Ned to Cersei.  Yes, Sansa was young, in love with Joffrey, and not aware of the ramifications of her act, but she did not want to leave leave Kings Landing, and so told Cersei that Ned was going to make her and Arya leave.  Cersei did not know this until Sansa told her.  Another reason is when Sansa deliberately lied to Yohn Royce about how swell LF is.  

There is also a very common and deep hate against Sansa, mostly based on sexism the most of the time (or at least expressed in sexist terms), because she used to incarnate the weakness, the tears, the naivete, etc. But this is what she was educated for, her parents intended to marry her and that's all they wanted for her. This is also the result of the way Ned educated her, always protecting her from the reality, keeping her in a bubble, etc (remember the dialogue between Sansa and Jon about everything that is said before a "but" (which makes me notice that Jon seems deeply sexist too in his way to consider and to talk to Sansa "And how should I be smartter? By listening to "you"?..."))

Look at Cersei, at her age, she received the same education (singing, dancing, smiling) but Tywin's influence was everything and she made of her a weapon. And now, nobody questions Cersei's opinion, and especially not because she is a woman. If someone does, it's just because she is wrong, that's all.

Ned's fault, like everything else in GoT, period.

Edited by Infeth

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2 hours ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

3. No Sansa's testimony didn't kill Mycah, he was already dead by the time she spoke. But she didn't know that. The trial happened, then Ned went outside and found Sandor with Mycah's body. She didn't know Sandor had already killed him. From Sansa's perspective she was called up knowing her testimony would determine whether Arya/Mycah/Nymeria or Joffrey was responsible for starting the fight. And that testimony was meant to determine who Robert would punish. For all Sansa knew her testimony WAS the difference between an innocent boy being killed/having his hand chopped off for striking a royal. (Not to mention how her own sister would be punished). And she chose to lie and not back Arya up, knowing full well it could harm Mycah. 

No, actually, Sansa also didn't incriminate Arya who was, according to the laws, a guilty party in the confrontation. Ned's noble ideas about Robert aside (who exactly knew that Joffrey was lying as in the books he did admit it). So, one can argue that Sansa was lying to protect her sister from punishment as well as protecting Joffrey from shame. Because, in Westeros, Crown Prince hitting someone = no punishment. But, others hitting Crown Prince = PUNISHMENT. Sansa didn't corroborate either story, which gave Robert a nice exit from a messy situation he, Ned and Cersei created. Sansa telling the outright lie about the incident could be used against Mycah, her pleading the 5th, can't. 

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Posted (edited)

46 minutes ago, Risto said:

No, actually, Sansa also didn't incriminate Arya who was, according to the laws, a guilty party in the confrontation. Ned's noble ideas about Robert aside (who exactly knew that Joffrey was lying as in the books he did admit it). So, one can argue that Sansa was lying to protect her sister from punishment as well as protecting Joffrey from shame. Because, in Westeros, Crown Prince hitting someone = no punishment. But, others hitting Crown Prince = PUNISHMENT. Sansa didn't corroborate either story, which gave Robert a nice exit from a messy situation he, Ned and Cersei created. Sansa telling the outright lie about the incident could be used against Mycah, her pleading the 5th, can't. 

I agree with you on the fact that Sansa has evolved greatly in the books and somewhat in the show. But @AryaUnderfoot33 is right about Arya's POV on Sansa. Arya isn't privy to Sansa's transformation as we the viewers/readers are. From Arya's POV, Sansa loved Joffrey and admired Cersei, Sansa hated the North and wanted to be queen in the South, Sansa lied and betrayed Arya at the Trident, and Sansa was standing on the dias when Joffrey ordered Ilyn Payne to chop of Ned's head. Arya does not know what transpired after. We as readers/viewers know that Sansa began longing for home and her family but Arya doesn't. Now I don't know if D&D means to imply that Sansa and Arya have aired out their differences and suspicions off screen but as of now if they showed Arya suspicious of Sansa's motives that would make sense. And to top it off, Sansa has creepfinger following her like a puppy who Arya knows was a Lannister toady. So yes, Arya should be weary of Sansa. As for the viewers, D&D wants to keep us on edge and doubt Sansa's real motives and loyalties. That's why they have Sophie giving out ambiguous looks and vibes. Unfortunately, the only plot D&D could come up with at WF before shit hits the fan is sibling rivalry and whether Sansa is truly loyal. In the books, OTOH, we still have Stannis and the Northern Lords fight with the Boltons to keep the readers engaged in the North storyline. 

Edited by teej6

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28 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I agree with you on the fact that Sansa has evolved greatly in the books and somewhat in the show. But @AryaUnderfoot33 is right about Arya's POV on Sansa. Arya isn't privy to Sansa's transformation as we the viewers/readers are. From Arya's POV, Sansa loved Joffrey and admired Cersei, Sansa hated the North and wanted to be queen in the South, Sansa lied and betrayed Arya at the Trident, and Sansa was standing on the dias when Joffrey ordered Ilyn Payne to chop of Ned's head. Arya does not know what transpired after. We as readers/viewers know that Sansa began longing for home and her family but Arya doesn't. Now I don't know if D&D means to imply that Sansa and Arya have aired out their differences and suspicions off screen but as of now if they showed Arya suspicious of Sansa's motives that would make sense. And to top it off, Sansa has creepfinger following her like a puppy who Arya knows was a Lannister toady. So yes, Arya should be weary of Sansa. As for the viewers, D&D wants to keep us on edge and doubt Sansa's real motives and loyalties. That's why they have Sophie giving out ambiguous looks and vibes. Unfortunately, the only plot D&D could come up with at WF before shit hits the fan is sibling rivalry and whether Sansa is truly loyal. In the books, OTOH, we still have Stannis and the Northern Lords fight with the Boltons to keep the readers engaged in the North storyline. 

No, I am not arguing against the fact that sisters might have some issues to deal with. In fact, they are rather different, that is to be expected. I was just saying that in the particular situation, Sansa wasn't throwing either Arya or Mycah under the bus and her lie didn't incriinate them. Yes, it didn't tell the truth, but it also didn't make a case that Joffrey was right and Arya wasn't. 

I think we will have some tension between these two, but I think it will end up the same way it ended up with Jon. I think LF is going to find out what the phrase "pack of wolves" actually means. 

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On 2017-08-07 at 10:41 AM, The Bastard of Summer said:

Also if I had to go with worried I'd say it's cause LF is kinda in her head. He just told her to fight all battles in her mind think of every possibility so she won't be surprised. If she is worried I think she just was a bit shook because she sees Aryas skill and over thought the monent maybe thinking she might be on that list. Also Briennes look said confused to me. Confused then sad.

I hadn't thought about the LF speech, but that makes sense. None of her siblings are quite what she thought they would be. She might be a teensy bit concerned about being on Arya's list, because of their childhood tension and her survival strategies,which Arya might perceive as family betrayal. She might also be concerned that Arya is a loose canon, who might jeopardize alliances with rash actions (like killing LF). 

And shock has got to be a huge part of her reaction. We've seen Arya's journey over the years. Sansa probably never even saw what Sirio taught her, let alone all the tricks she learned from the faceless men, the Hound, et al. Ned called them "dancing lessons," so Sansa may never have seen Arya hold a sword. Accepting a woman like Brienne as a fighter was probably a huge leap for Sansa's world view. Accepting her baby sister, who has just come back to what she probably viewed as her protection, as a ninja warrior assassin would be mind-blowing and not a little disconcerting.

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