Jcat

A Wight for Cersei? Seriously?

227 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Something incredible happened tonight a show I have loved and followed for seven seasons just crapped all over itself.  Or should I say D & D just crapped all over it.  The scheme Tyrion proposes for Jon and crew to go to Eastwatch, and get a Wight as a showroom model to convince Cersei to at least grant a temporary armistice--is colossally stupid!  The show runners have ruined Tyrion.  

Does Tyrion not know his sister by now?  Even if they get a sample, can they preserve it long enough to get it down south?  Would Cersei even believe this is what Tyrion and others claim it to be, and not some alchemist's trick?  And even if he could convince her she is as likely to make an alliance with the Night King as she is Daenerys.  Cersei has no scruples.

I have never been so disappointed in any TV show I have followed as I am tonight.

Edited by Jcat
Clearity of concept

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Which one of the A-team becomes a wight next week? Stay tuned.

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I thought i was the only one that thought this was stupid. I guess the writers thought that this is the best way to show the urgency of the threat the wights pose to everyone.

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Posted (edited)

Episode 4: Enough with the clever plans

Episode 5: Hear, hear

Edited by Risto

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Jcat said:

Does Tyrion not know his sister by now? 

Its a desperate and optimistic plan to avoid more bloodshed from a person who evidently abhors war. A Hail Mary.

 

7 hours ago, Jcat said:

 Even if they get a sample, can they preserve it long enough to get it down south? 

Winter is here. You should look at the new "Inside the Episode". One of the D's touch on this subject.

 

7 hours ago, Jcat said:

 Would Cersei even believe this is what Tyrion and others claim it to be, and not some alchemist's trick?

Depends of "presentation" lol. The Stargaryens will no doubt share your concern and present accordingly.

 

7 hours ago, Jcat said:

And even if he could convince her she is as likely to make an alliance with the Night King as she is Daenerys.  Cersei has no scruples.

Well this might well turn out to be the case. Its quite possible she already has a "wight" serving her in the form of Ser FrankenMountain. Her agenda seems quite similar to the White Walkers - "Anyone who isn't us is an enemy. (KILL THEM!! KILL THEM ALL!!!)". Its not far off from there. This is why she is an antagonist.

Edited by daemonTheBlack

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And that's not all, the dumbest part is that the expedition party consists of seven people who go beyond the wall by foot and with no horses! Do they realize they're going to confront a hoard of hundreds of zombies? How the fuck do they expect to survive that?

 

This whole development of the plot is mind-blowingly stupid.

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The episode is there to set up the next couple of episodes although it was a very convoluted way to get those characters together

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Agree with Op entirely. When Tyrion went off book in Season 5 he became stupid but now he is a ridiculous little cretin that comes up with the most cringe worthy plans possible.

They are drawing this out in all the wrong ways. Just finish the fucking thing already, so we see how the main story resolves before we learn to hate every single character.

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Dumbest plan ever.

What are they planning on bringing whitey back with?  A pair of handcuffs, perhaps?

At least they have dragonglass weapons, right?  They were mining, but the blacksmith just got there, so how does that work?

Also, when is Jon planning on telling Jorah about his fancy sword?

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Worst idea ever. Worst plan ever. Worst writing ever. Worse than Dorne. Worse than Bolton marriage. Worse than wolverine. No, maybe not worse but as bad as. 

you can find fanfiction online that's ten times better writing than this episode. 

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2 hours ago, daemonTheBlack said:

Its a desperate and optimistic plan to avoid more bloodshed from a person who evidently abhors war. A Hail Mary.

 

Winter is here. You should look at the new "Inside the Episode". One of the D's touch on this subject.

 

Depends of "presentation" lol. The Stargaryens will no doubt share your concern and present accordingly.

 

Well this might well turn out to be the case. Its quite possible she already has a "wight" serving her in the form of Ser FrankenMountain. Her agenda seems quite similar to the White Walkers - "Anyone who isn't us is an enemy. (KILL THEM!! KILL THEM ALL!!!)". Its not far off from there. This is why she is an antagonist.

That is the biggest problem I have with the show runners (bold). It seems they want to tell half of the story in interviews and the press. It doesn't work for me at all. Many of us don't watch that interview. 

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Also why do they need to present anything to Cerscei? Dany has the upper hand at the moment. She needs to show shit. Also why join with Cerscei when Dany want what cerscei has, which is the IT?

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In order to convince Danny, wouldn't be easier to fly with Dragon from a safe distance just to see the AoD? 

In order to convince Cersei..... wait are you freaking kidding that you want to have any conversation with Cersei? It would make some sense if they wanted to convince Jaime and doing so, making Jaime antagonize Cersei...

Anytime I see an episode wrote by David Hill I will still watch but at least I would be prepared for a high school level fan fiction...

 

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1 hour ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

The episode is there to set up the next couple of episodes although it was a very convoluted way to get those characters together

Yeah I agree it was just a stepping stone, a weird one to say the least. I dont like how they suddenly just come together. 

33 minutes ago, ummester said:

Agree with Op entirely. When Tyrion went off book in Season 5 he became stupid but now he is a ridiculous little cretin that comes up with the most cringe worthy plans possible.

I'm in totally agreement. Its gone somewhat down hill. Its rushed, thoughtless and senseless.

33 minutes ago, ummester said:

They are drawing this out in all the wrong ways. Just finish the fucking thing already, so we see how the main story resolves before we learn to hate every single character.

I want it over and done with now before as you say every single character is brutalised. I hope season 8 is somewhat better wrote

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3 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

I want it over and done with now before as you say every single character is brutalised. I hope season 8 is somewhat better wrote

Hopefully the ending (as in the original planned ending) is something special. Hopefully it is in some way worthy of the first 4 seasons and first 3 books.

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4 minutes ago, ummester said:

Hopefully the ending (as in the original planned ending) is something special. Hopefully it is in some way worthy of the first 4 seasons and first 3 books.

I cant really comment on the books but from the show perspective, season 7 has really been the final nail in the coffin. GOT is so predictable now, and the subtlety of clues is well non existent. 

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Me too, I was so disappointed in that plot, I understand it : they need every man and woman in the 7K to know their real enemy but the storytelling was so awkward 

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Posted (edited)

I just have to add to this thread, because for me, this was the stupidest the show has ever been, and the problems with this plan go far beyond whether or not Cercei will believe them.

Let's recap - why have our heroes decided on this plan to go and capture a Wight and return with it to King's Landing? Because apparently Jon is informed that the Knight's King is marching towards EastWatch, and there's no time to wait until the war is done to go and fight him, they need Dany's help to fight him now. But Dany cannot abandon the war, and needs to have an armistice with Cercei first, and convince her that the threat is real.

So given that we are incredibly pressured for time, what is the plan that our heroes come up with?

Well first of all, they need to have a council to discuss the news. Remember, Dany flies back, but Tyrion cannot do so, so obviously we need to wait for him to sail back from King's Landing to Dragonstone in order to have the meeting.

Then after we've made the decision to rush back and capture the Wight we need to... wait for Davos to smuggle Tyrion back to King's Landing to have a 10 minute conversation with his brother, get Gendry, then sail back to Dragonstone.

At which point, Jon, who is King in the North and lords over thousands of men, will sail on his own with an untrained blacksmith, an old man, and Jorah Mormont, on to Eastwatch. There, together with another 4 men, they will walk out north of the wall, with no horses and no supplies, against an army of tens of thousands of dead zombies, that they have no idea what place they are in, and where they will somehow capture one of the zombies (how? what it the plan to keep the thing immobile?). After they capture the zombie, the seven of them plan to walk back to EastWatch.

By the way, remember at the end of Season 1 where an expedition North of the Wall was a big deal that involved most of the manpower of the Night's Watch, and took about 3 seasons worth for the entire plot to be resolved?

Then after they've captured this zombie, and assuming our 7 heroes haven't been killed by the ravenous army of a hundred thousand zombies, they will sail back from EastWatch to King's Landing, Dany (who's apparently just sitting around doing nothing for all the months if not years this whole plan will take) will sail back from Dragonstone, they will have a meeting with Cercei where they will show her the zombie. Then if things turn out well, Dany will march back to the North, where apparently the Night's King is still waiting before attacking East Watch.

This plan, which involve at least two treks along the entire length of Westeros, multiple trips from Dragonstone to King's Landing and back, and an expedition into the unknown beyond the wall, is what the brilliant and cunnint Tyrion came up with in order to save time given how urgent the situation is.

Here's what bothers me - I don't mind dragons, and magic, and the fantastical elements, given that the plot makes sense in the context of the fantastical elements established. What bothers me is, given the context of the setting, when characters do actions that make no sense given that context, and which in reality they never would. And nobody in the context of the story would actually come up with this plan.

I remember watching the commentaries for season 4, at the scene where Brienne fights the Hound, and I'm sure I remember D&D were commenting that part of how they decide how to deviate from the book, is when they imagine what would happen if two characters who are separated in the books were to meet. So the fight with Brienne and the Hound happened because they felt 'Wouldn't it be cool if we could get to see these two characters fight and find out who would win?

So what annoys me about this episode, is that clearly, the plot is not being set up to have internal consistency with the world, or the characters, but to answer fanboyish 'What if' questions. D&D think it would be cool if the Hound and Jorah Mormont met together and fought a White Walker, so by God, they'll find a way to make it so. The show is constructed to think up of 'cool' set-pieces, and then things are made up to make those set pieces possible, no matter how non-sensical given the context of the characters or the setting.

Jorah Mormont, who is in love with Dany, and has just survived greyscale and managed to return to her, would never just abandon her to go off onto an expedition north of the wall. But the cool set-piece demands that he do so, so he will.

Jon Snow, King in the North, and ex-commander of the Night's Watch, would never go on an expedition North of the Wall with 7 men and no supplies. But the cool set-piece demands that he do so, so he will.

Remember that the Brotherhood without Banners is a 'brotherhood' of probably tens if not hundreds of men? But everybody in the brotherhood disappears into thin air without explanation, with miraculously only the 3 named members remaining, who just so happen to be captured by Tormund, just at the time that Jon happens to want to go North.

It's all so... stupid. What made Game of Thrones interesting was the complex 3-dimensional characters, and the de-construction of fantasy tropes given the brutal reality of the world. Remember for example in Season 1, when Jorah Mormont fights the bloodrider, and defeats him because of the protection afforded to him by his armor? Despite the typical fantasy cliché of the highly skilled steppe warrior, we are shown how in real life, the practicalities of armor and medieval combat are effective in a real fight. Now we get the cringe-worthy line from Jaime about how 'Now I've seen the Dothraki fight, no army in the seven kingdoms can defeat them' (Why?). But now everything, from the Dothraki to the individual characters, has been devolved to one-dimensional fantasy clichés that GRRM tried so hard to elevate his books from, and the plot has devolved to a series of nonsensical actions to go from one action set-piece to another.

Edited by Iotun

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Yeah, to much of this. It is dumb for many of the reasons mentioned but how else does Jon try to convince anyone that the threat is real? By the time the army of the Dead gets to KL, it's certainly too late. The showrunners painted him right into this corner, but I'm sure they'll contrive some way to make it work better than what Alliser Thorne tried to bring south.

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