snow is the man

When jon became lord commander who put the bird in the...

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Did sam put the mormonts raven in the kettle when jon was made lord commander. I never understood this. Was it just coincidence or did sam or someone else put the raven in the kettle.

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Maybe a skinchanger, a greenseer or a spirit already living inside it.

Edited by Tucu

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Sam claimed he didn't do it, even after Jon had been elected, and talking to their friends after.

 

IIRC the common theories are (1) Mormont had latent skinchanger abilities tied to his Raven and did it during his second life, (2) someone else was already living a second life in Mormont's raven and did it, or (3) Bloodraven did it.

I'd lean towards Bloodraven did it, personally.

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I like this topic :drool:   Maester Aemon did the deed. That's my story and I sticking to it.

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Bloodraven is by far the most likely culprit. Not only does the raven mysteriously pop out of the kettle, but it also super conveniently lands on Jon's shoulder and probably telepathically influenced the vote, just as it earlier telepathically influenced the mutiny at Craster's (the mutiny obviously being before Mormont's death, and we have no evidence Mormont was a skinchanger anyways).

Quote

The king's men cleared the door when they told them of the choosing, and Three-Finger Hobb and half a dozen helpers went trotting off to the kitchen to fetch the food. Jon did not wait to eat. He walked across the castle, wondering if he were dreaming, with the raven on his shoulder and Ghost at his heels. Pyp, Grenn, and Sam trailed after him, chattering, but he hardly heard a word until Grenn whispered, "Sam did it," and Pyp said, "Sam did it!" Pyp had brought a wineskin with him, and he took a long drink and chanted, "Sam, Sam, Sam the wizard, Sam the wonder, Sam Sam the marvel man, he did it. But when did you hide the raven in the kettle, Sam, and how in seven hells could you be certain it would fly to Jon? It would have mucked up everything if the bird had decided to perch on Janos Slynt's fat head."

 

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6 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Bloodraven is by far the most likely culprit. Not only does the raven mysteriously pop out of the kettle, but it also super conveniently lands on Jon's shoulder and probably telepathically influenced the vote, just as it earlier telepathically influenced the mutiny at Craster's (the mutiny obviously being before Mormont's death, and we have no evidence Mormont was a skinchanger anyways).

Quote

The king's men cleared the door when they told them of the choosing, and Three-Finger Hobb and half a dozen helpers went trotting off to the kitchen to fetch the food. Jon did not wait to eat. He walked across the castle, wondering if he were dreaming, with the raven on his shoulder and Ghost at his heels. Pyp, Grenn, and Sam trailed after him, chattering, but he hardly heard a word until Grenn whispered, "Sam did it," and Pyp said, "Sam did it!" Pyp had brought a wineskin with him, and he took a long drink and chanted, "Sam, Sam, Sam the wizard, Sam the wonder, Sam Sam the marvel man, he did it. But when did you hide the raven in the kettle, Sam, and how in seven hells could you be certain it would fly to Jon? It would have mucked up everything if the bird had decided to perch on Janos Slynt's fat head."

:agree:

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Argh, Sam has a terrible time trying to lie. He gets all discombobulated. Besides Sam denies it and even says

"I had nothing to do with the bird," Sam insisted. "When it flew out of the kettle I almost wet myself."

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Bloodraven. It is known. 

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Preston Jacobs needs to release the next part of his raven videos series ASAP

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9 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

... and probably telepathically influenced the vote, just as it earlier telepathically influenced the mutiny at Craster's ...

Wait... what?

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1 hour ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

Wait... what?

LOL sorry I totally mentioned that real quick without any elaboration. As @Falcon2909 said, we need PJ's next video. But I think he is in Iraq right now as part of his mission to visit every country, so it may be a few weeks :P. To summarize: the mutineers complained viscerally about being starved by Craster while they were literally eating tasty nutritious food. Here is one relevant quote:

Quote

Craster narrowed his eyes. "I gave you crows enough. I got me women to feed."

Dirk speared a chunk of horsemeat. "Aye. So you admit you got a secret larder. How else to make it through a winter?"

Dirk is literally eating horsemeat and complaining about not being fed enough. Mormont even says it is madness. And throughout the whole scene Mormont's raven is making a bunch of noise. Here are a couple more relevant quotes:

Quote

"Oats," suggested Ollo Lophand. "Corn. Barley."

"Corn," said Mormont's raven, with a flap of the wings. "Corn, corn, corn, corn, corn."

"Enough," said Lord Commander Mormont over the bird's raucous calls. "Be quiet, all of you. This is folly."

Quote

"Dried berries. Cabbages. Pine nuts."

"Corn. Corn. Corn."

"Salt mutton. There's a sheepfold. He's got casks and casks of mutton laid by, you know he does."

And here is the PJ vid. There are 2 parts so far and some of us are anxiously awaiting the next one:

 

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I'll watch the video later when I can, but... let's just say I'm sceptical for now. For one thing, that's just one of about a hundred situations where Mormont's raven says "corn". As for how much there was to eat, the horsemeat is what the NW brought with them, and Craster only provides two loaves of bread.

Anyway, I don't think the mutiny needs another explanation at all. Chett and co. already had a similar plan, and all the brothers there had been through considerable stress, hardship and fear. The spark that sets it off feels natural, too. People's mouths get the better of them after all the frustration and fear boils over, and it still almost died down except that Craster wouldn't let it go either.

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I'm going to say it was the cook:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"Corn," cried the raven. "Corn, corn."

"Roast raven," Jon suggested. "And half a pint of ale." Having a steward fetch and serve for him still felt strange; not long ago, it would have been him fetching breakfast for Lord Commander Mormont. 

"Three corns and one roast raven," said Dolorous Edd. "Very good, m'lord, only Hobb's made boiled eggs, black sausage, and apples stewed with prunes. The apples stewed with prunes are excellent, except for the prunes. I won't eat prunes myself. Well, there was one time when Hobb chopped them up with chestnuts and carrots and hid them in a hen. Never trust a cook, my lord. They'll prune you when you least expect it."

 

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3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL sorry I totally mentioned that real quick without any elaboration. As @Falcon2909 said, we need PJ's next video. But I think he is in Iraq right now as part of his mission to visit every country, so it may be a few weeks :P. To summarize: the mutineers complained viscerally about being starved by Craster while they were literally eating tasty nutritious food. Here is one relevant quote:

Dirk is literally eating horsemeat and complaining about not being fed enough. Mormont even says it is madness. And throughout the whole scene Mormont's raven is making a bunch of noise. Here are a couple more relevant quotes:

And here is the PJ vid. There are 2 parts so far and some of us are anxiously awaiting the next one:

 

This isn't the corn code redux is it? 

@Ser Creighton

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

This isn't the corn code redux is it? 

@Ser Creighton

Corn probably means a lot of things, like:

corn, and corn, corn - feed me and,

corn,corn,corn,corn,corn - holy shit!

The bird has that in common with Hodor.

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13 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL sorry I totally mentioned that real quick without any elaboration. As @Falcon2909 said, we need PJ's next video. But I think he is in Iraq right now as part of his mission to visit every country, so it may be a few weeks :P.

 

Wait.. why is he in Iraq? Also how do u know this? (Does he have some blog or something where he says this stuff)

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51 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

Wait.. why is he in Iraq? Also how do u know this? (Does he have some blog or something where he says this stuff)

LOL he literally has a weird life goal of visiting every country. To his credit, it does make for very cheap vacations in most places. And he has talked about in his podcast/youtube videos that he does with RedTeamReview. The RTR host is an idiot by comparison, but PJ still shares a lot of useful insights in those videos. And because of their unscripted, casual nature he sometimes talks about other random stuff like his trip to Iraq.

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13 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I'll watch the video later when I can, but... let's just say I'm sceptical for now. For one thing, that's just one of about a hundred situations where Mormont's raven says "corn". As for how much there was to eat, the horsemeat is what the NW brought with them, and Craster only provides two loaves of bread.

Anyway, I don't think the mutiny needs another explanation at all. Chett and co. already had a similar plan, and all the brothers there had been through considerable stress, hardship and fear. The spark that sets it off feels natural, too. People's mouths get the better of them after all the frustration and fear boils over, and it still almost died down except that Craster wouldn't let it go either.

I recommend reading A Song For Lya. In that story, the people who are in the process of joining the hive mind of the Greeshka walk around ringing bells constantly, and the sound of the bells causes other telepaths (like Lya aka Lyanna 1.0) to be temporarily connected to the Greeshka as well. So sound is a powerful medium for telepathic connections. And in asoiaf, it appears that GRRM has done something very similar with animals, specifically the presence and howling of the direwolves (like in the scene with Bran's assassin when the howling drives Cat insane to the point where she requests the wolves all be killed to make them stop) and the presence and cawing of Mormont's raven.

And yes, of course there was ample cause for a mutiny anyways. GRRM likes to obfuscate these things. Otherwise the influence of the raven would be super obvious. But it is pretty clear that the raven telepathically influenced the NW election vote (based on the details of the final tally, the votes of people who weren't even in the room were switched to Jon by the people voting for them as proxies which is absurd) and so it is very possible that it influenced the mutiny too. And keep in mind that Sam strangely blacks out during the mutiny and then runs off with Gilly as a result (because Grenn was unable to make Sam run away with them), and this was the key to allowing Bran through the wall so he could make it north to Bloodraven. In other words, the exact scenario and result of the mutiny was just way too convenient for BR's plan for it to be a coincidence, and we know BR was there skinchanging the raven anyways.

You are right to be skeptical, but I highly recommend watching the PJ vid. :D 

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1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL he literally has a weird life goal of visiting every country. To his credit, it does make for very cheap vacations in most places. And he has talked about in his podcast/youtube videos that he does with RedTeamReview. The RTR host is an idiot by comparison, but PJ still shares a lot of useful insights in those videos. And because of their unscripted, casual nature he sometimes talks about other random stuff like his trip to Iraq.

Oh that's nice to hear. Hope he and cindy have a great time. Visiting all the countries is my goal too but Iraq would not be one of my initial destinations lol

Edited by Falcon2909

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