U.S. Politics: A City Upon A Hill Has Lost It's Shine.

[Bonnot OG]

People in wheel chairs that are protesting the repeal of the ACA and shit bill and Graham and Cassidy came up with, are being pulled out by cops.

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, S John said:

This topic just drips with irony, and that's what I love about it.  

Most obvious is the insinuation that regular citizens in a free society should be compelled to behave in a patriotic fashion because... freedom?  Or else(!), according to the POUTS..... you are an s.o.b. who should be fired?  Hey, if you don't celebrate our freedoms the way I would like you to, then you should lose your job you son of a bitch!  lol, what the fuck.

Then there's the fact that we mistreat the American flag all the time in this country and often do so in the name of patriotism.  The US flag isn't supposed to be laid flat, made into clothing, used as a table cloth, in product labeling, etc, etc, etc but the same people bitching about the anthem are probably wearing some USA flag underwear and drinking a Budweiser.  Full disclosure - I do own a pair of American flag underwear.  

Another good one I've seen is people complaining online that these spoiled millionaires running their mouths about politics.  Makes me wonder - what is Trump's excuse?  Y'all elected a spoiled millionaire who loves nothing more than to run his mouth.  

Then the hypocrisy of the 'I just don't like the way they are doing it' excuse I mentioned earlier.  States are passing laws making it easier to avoid getting in trouble if you mow down protesters blocking streets with your car.  If that is the climate we are in peacefully and silently taking a knee during the holy flag mass should be roundly applauded as a great and non-disruptive way to make a point.  

Hypocrisy and irony are incredibly effective weapons to use against the American liberal minded person because unfairness is one of the two biggest feelings that they care about most (the other is things being harmed). They are incredibly useless against conservatives. 

I know, it's so incredibly unfair and wrong and ironic that it makes you want to scream WAKE UP AND SEE WHAT YOU DO ASSHOLE. I know it does that to me. But it just isn't that big a deal to conservative thinkers in the US. Ingroup politics are much more effective.

[all swedes are racist]

2 hours ago, S John said:

This topic just drips with irony, and that's what I love about it.  

Most obvious is the insinuation that regular citizens in a free society should be compelled to behave in a patriotic fashion because... freedom?  Or else(!), according to the POUTS..... you are an s.o.b. who should be fired?  Hey, if you don't celebrate our freedoms the way I would like you to, then you should lose your job you son of a bitch!  lol, what the fuck.

Then there's the fact that we mistreat the American flag all the time in this country and often do so in the name of patriotism.  The US flag isn't supposed to be laid flat, made into clothing, used as a table cloth, in product labeling, etc, etc, etc but the same people bitching about the anthem are probably wearing some USA flag underwear and drinking a Budweiser.  Full disclosure - I do own a pair of American flag underwear.  

just to be clear though, none of those things are actually flags, nor likely to be made from a flag, which is a pretty specific thing. i am fairly certain, however, many of these same folks who may in fact fly a true flag outside their homes or wherever, fail to bring it inside for inclement weather, illuminate it at night, etc

37 minutes ago, aceluby said:

I've never really understood any of this.  I don't get why the NFL and the military are so intertwined.  I don't understand the 15 minute flag worship, national anthem, and 6 other songs that are required viewing before a football game.  I don't get why this is such a big deal, and yet excuses are made every year for players convicted of major crimes and fans just shrug it off.  I don't understand patriotism in general, but really don't get why certain things are holy while other things automatically make you a pariah.  I just don't get it.

because the government literally pays the nfl for this stuff, it's a marketing campaign (as @Week points out above)

[Kalbear]

41 minutes ago, aceluby said:

I've never really understood any of this.  I don't get why the NFL and the military are so intertwined.  I don't understand the 15 minute flag worship, national anthem, and 6 other songs that are required viewing before a football game.  I don't get why this is such a big deal, and yet excuses are made every year for players convicted of major crimes and fans just shrug it off.  I don't understand patriotism in general, but really don't get why certain things are holy while other things automatically make you a pariah.  I just don't get it.

As it turns out this hadn't been the case until recently. 2009 , I believe. When the Pentagon started paying the NFL for big showcases of supporting the flag, it was made mandatory by the NFL in 2009. Prior to that the players stayed in the locker rooms. 

So the whole thing isn't about patriotism at all - it's about the Pentagon and the US, which is paying something like $12m per year for this, getting their money's worth. 

[Rippounet]

2 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I generally agree with this argument, but in terms of Virginia v. Black note the court also ruled cross burning in and of itself is not prima facie evidence of intent to intimidate.  Thus, the state must demonstrate the cross burning is "carried out" with the intent to intimidate, indicating a "true threat."

Indeed. It's a harsh, terrible thing to place the burden on the victims to prove that there is "intent" to intimidate and thus something that can be proved to be a "true threat."
As if a world war wasn't enough to show nazism is a true threat. But I'm preaching to the choir here...

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Some of us are wired that way, some aren't.

It's not "wiring."
Part of it is indoctrination, and part of it is a genuine longing to belong to something greater than yourself.
Liberals or liberal-minded people tend to feel they belong to something even greater than their nation. Sometimes it's just because they want to be humanists or -probably most of the time actually- because their personal experience has led them to see that nations and national myths are just abstract constructs without much inherent merit.
Like I dunno how common my personal life story is, but I could have as many as three passports and nationalities if I put in the effort, so patriotism for me is just that odd way of thinking or feeling that some people have because... They can. I for myself simply can't. Living in three different nations and cultures during my childhood has shown me that patriotism is just a way to make you feel good about yourself by adhering to some abstract notions of exceptionalism and universalism that in truth most nations have on some level or the other. Once you see past the constructs and the lies and the manipulations... You can't go back.
I think patriotism... That deep feeling of pride that some people find through being born in a specific place... I think it's bullshit. Panem et circenses for the masses and all that. I have felt that kind of thing from time to time, but it's always been followed by bitter disillusion.
And I just don't know how to say that without being offensive to some people but... I think if you're an adult and you still can't see past the constructs, lies, and manipulations... Well you're probably quite ignorant about history and politics. You probably have no idea how the world works and you're just deluding yourself into thinking that somehow *you* as an individual can get something out of the supposed greatness of your place of birth. I guess it's good for the people who do get something out of it, but in the long-run it's always been a flaw in our species rather than something to be proud of.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, Rippounet said:

Indeed. It's a harsh, but terrible thing to place the burden on the victims to prove that there is "intent" to intimidate and thus something that can be proved to be a "true threat."
As if a world war wasn't enough to show nazism is a true threat. But I'm preaching to the choir here...

It's not "wiring."
Part of it is indoctrination, and part of it is a genuine longing to belong to something greater than yourself.
Liberals or liberal-minded people tend to feel they belong to something even greater than their nation. Sometimes it's just because they want to be humanists or -probably most of the time actually- because their personal experience has led them to see that nations and national myths are just abstract constructs without much inherent merit.
Like I dunno how common my personal life story is, but I could have as many as three passports and nationalities if I put in the effort, so patriotism for me is just that odd way of thinking or feeling that some people have because... They can. I for myself simply can't. Living in three different nations and cultures during my childhood has shown me that patriotism is just a way to make you feel good about yourself by adhering to some abstract notions of exceptionalism and universalism that in truth most nations have on some level or the other. Once you see past the constructs and the lies and the manipulations... You can't go back.
I think patriotism... That deep feeling of pride that some people find through being born in a specific place... I think it's bullshit. Panem et circenses for the masses and all that. I have felt that kind of thing from time to time, but it's always been followed by bitter disillusion.
And I just don't know how to say that without being offensive to some people but... I think if you're an adult and you still can't see past the constructs, lies, and manipulations... Well you're probably quite ignorant about history and politics. You probably have no idea how the world works and you're just deluding yourself into thinking that somehow *you* as an individual can get something out of the supposed greatness of your place of birth. I guess it's good for the people who do get something out of it, but in the long-run it's always been a flaw in our species rather than something to be proud of.

Glad you've reached that higher level of existence, then. A world view you are entitled to, of course.

[Rippounet]

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Glad you've reached that higher level of existence, then. A world view you are entitled to, of course.

I think it's a bit more than entitlement. When you sir, as an American "patriot," advocate on the neighboring thread the launching of a pre-emptive strike (nuclear, I presume) on North Korea because you believe your nation somehow deserves to be free from the threat of... nuclear strikes (how ironic), I think it goes slightly beyond entitlement. My "world view" as you call it becomes somewhat closer to a hard truth, and your patriotism a threat to the lives of millions of people. At some point it is some form or other of "patriotism" that will lead someone to start a nuclear war and end our species. And while I don't care much for all the "patriots" dumb enough to sacrifice themselves for their oh-so-great nation, it is a tragedy that they will sacrifice the rest of us with them.
But hey, it makes you feel good and righteous, right? So it's all good.

[Zorral]

35 minutes ago, good chill praxis guy said:

just to be clear though, none of those things are actually flags, nor likely to be made from a flag, which is a pretty specific thing. i am fairly certain, however, many of these same folks who may in fact fly a true flag outside their homes or wherever, fail to bring it inside for inclement weather, illuminate it at night, etc

because the government literally pays the nfl for this stuff, it's a marketing campaign (as @Week points out above)

Army vs Navy is an ancient in terms of US time rivalry in football:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army–Navy_Game

But that's only one reason.  Sports have always stood in for war, somewhere between diplomacy and shooting, one of the reasons for the Olympics.  Ha! we get more gold medals than you do blahblahblah.  Also in the south, football, marching bands, baton twirlers, the (ancient) tradition of military academies for sons instead of high school, then college where football is huge, was in place before the War of the Rebellinon, then joining up as an officer for the well-off, and just joining as a grunt for those who don't have resources, after the war of Rebellion, has remained, and it has spread.  Basketball is a very come lately part of this tradition but it is now -- and again, there's this whole other stratum of how most of the players for both sports became black -- which also harks back to the ancient and well-loved southern tradition of black men hurting each really bad for profit (gambling) and entertainment (I can do with my property just as  I like).  The racial stuff in the psyche of USians is deep, tangled and very dark stuff.

Anyway, that's for starters.

Um somebody seemed to feel I was talking about Him specifically.  How did he know? 

So I may as well point out here, one should probably think about how much the problem for black men and women specifically are the cops in the first place before recommending black men sit down in a placating way with cops.  In any case, the cops know what issues black men have with cops, doncha think?

 

[ThinkerX]

Kind of stating the obvious at this point.  I do wonder, though, isn't the behavior of these GOP lawmakers skirting dangerously close to 'bribery,' even with todays lax restrictions?

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-gop-cant-quit-obamacare-repeal-because-of-their-donors/ar-AAss4i5?ocid=ob-fb-enus-580

 

The evidence that the GOP is trying to please donors here is adding up. An anonymous Republican senator told Politico that McConnell might be returning to health care to show donors “that the Senate GOP tried again.” Senate Republicans were warned at a private meeting that fundraising was slow because donors were disappointed at their lack of accomplishments, per the New York Times. And in recent months, senators “faced an unrelenting barrage of confrontations with some of their closest supporters, donors and friends” over Obamacare repeal’s failure, according to the Washington Post.

This pressure seems to be able to move votes. One moderate senator, Dean Heller (R-NV), conspicuously switched from being a public critic of repeal efforts to a strong supporter of Graham-Cassidy. That came after he reportedly got an earful from Sheldon Adelson and Steve Wynn, two billionaire GOP donors in his state.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Money talks, bullshit walks. It is known.

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

Kind of stating the obvious at this point.  I do wonder, though, isn't the behavior of these GOP lawmakers skirting dangerously close to 'bribery,' even with todays lax restrictions?

Well, based on how campaigns are conducted in this country, objectively I think a party's donor class demanding legislative results once said party enjoys unified government is pretty much as close to truly direct responsiveness and accountability as we can get.  Substantively, as that article points out, the donor class needs to pass Obamacare because the Medicaid cuts they've bootstrapped into repeal are essential to the entire GOP agenda. 

[lokisnow]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Hypocrisy and irony are incredibly effective weapons to use against the American liberal minded person because unfairness is one of the two biggest feelings that they care about most (the other is things being harmed). They are incredibly useless against conservatives. 

I know, it's so incredibly unfair and wrong and ironic that it makes you want to scream WAKE UP AND SEE WHAT YOU DO ASSHOLE. I know it does that to me. But it just isn't that big a deal to conservative thinkers in the US. Ingroup politics are much more effective.

I know I've read extensively about these but am coming up short on recollecting details, do you have a link that covers more ground?

[maarsen]

28 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Well, based on how campaigns are conducted in this country, objectively I think a party's donor class demanding legislative results once said party enjoys unified government is pretty much as close to truly direct responsiveness and accountability as we can get.  Substantively, as that article points out, the donor class needs to pass Obamacare because the Medicaid cuts they've bootstrapped into repeal are essential to the entire GOP agenda. 

When the legislators get tossed out of office and hung from lamp posts, I can just hear them saying "But, but....donors!"

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 9/24/2017 at 2:36 PM, Dr. Pepper said:

They do promote violence.  They actively promote violence.   We're not talking about some idiot trying to shout about flat earth theory.  These fuckers actively work to demonize others and direct their mobs toward them.  Furthermore, yesterday's troll can easily morph into something different today.  We're in a different climate where the champion of neo nazis and other white supremacists is in the white house promoting the beliefs of these groups.  Yesterday Milo might have been merely a troll.  Today, he's a recruiter.  It's a whole different game.  He should not be given a platform at a place like a university. 

And I'm of the opinion that once it transitions from trolling to advocating for violence that it should be shutdown immediately. But I can't defend using violence as a preemptive tool to shut down speech that has yet to turn violent. I just find that to be a slippery slope that could be horribly abused. 

[James Arryn]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And I'm of the opinion that once it transitions from trolling to advocating for violence that it should be shutdown immediately. But I can't defend using violence as a preemptive tool to shut down speech that has yet to turn violent. I just find that to be a slippery slope that could be horribly abused. 

It's weird how much this is mirroring the NK discussion. 

[DMC]

17 minutes ago, maarsen said:

When the legislators get tossed out of office and hung from lamp posts, I can just hear them saying "But, but....donors!"

Methinks in that case the donors will already be swinging from the same lamp posts.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

It's weird how much this is mirroring the NK discussion. 

I can't tell if you agree or disagree, but yes, the two threads to have some odd parallels. 

[James Arryn]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

I can't tell if you agree or disagree, but yes, the two threads to have some odd parallels. 

Agree, I think. 

[Zorral]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And I'm of the opinion that once it transitions from trolling to advocating for violence that it should be shutdown immediately. But I can't defend using violence as a preemptive tool to shut down speech that has yet to turn violent. I just find that to be a slippery slope that could be horribly abused. 

Maybe showing those who think they're safe what is coming inevitably IF these people and their vile, evil propaganda and recruiting for genocide and exclusion isn't shut down?

Really, look at Europe in the 20's, 30's and then the 40's, coz it wasn't shut down and a large proportion of populaces, even in nations like Britain, even agreed with the whole agenda, until the day the nazi troops started invading  the homes of their their relatives in Europe and dropping bombs on the UK.  Before that they were all against anybody fighting back, yanno?

That remains so, whatever pun dits these days say about Chamberlain's brilliant strategy to give the nazis what they wanted and declare peach in our frime and the fireworks went off until the fireworks turned into bombs falling from the sky over London -- that strategy being that giving peace in our time bought the Brits time in their time to prepare for war and go begging for allies, as in the USA.  The jury still seems out on that one.

[Kalbear]

59 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

I know I've read extensively about these but am coming up short on recollecting details, do you have a link that covers more ground?

The biggest one is the Haidt studies. There's a decent review of his book, and this article has a good graph on it. Basically, the more liberal you are in the US the more likely you are going to be strongly feeling about unfairness (which corresponds to the emotion anger) and care/harm (which corresponds to the emotion sadness). Conservatives feel roughly equivalent about those and ingroup (corresponding to joy), purity (corresponding to disgust) and authority (corresponding to fear).