“For the watch”

[WildlingWitch]

9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The *only* reason Ramsey even issued the threat in the first place was response to Jon getting his savages to steal his property.

Jon by trying to save her puts in jepordary the lives of the thousands of wildling refugees he's trying to shelter, the brotherhood, and humanity in general.

You don't think Aemon was tempted to seek out Viserys and Dany and restore his family's dynasty?

Of course he did.

But he swore to something higher than family; protecting the realms of men.

 

Aemon did try to leave.The moment he decided that Daenerys was the princess that was promised he tried to leave but he was too frail.

Also I know this point has been argued already but Melisandra sent them NOT Jon, Jon sent Mance to the Lake. Jon is told by BOTH Melisandra and the Pink Letter that Ramsey DID NOT have Arya.
 

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again, Jon was acting selfish.

Hes proving to be a terrible leader.

Nobody should give a fuck about the oaths.  The fact is that the Watch is not only threatened by what is coming from north of the wall; they are threatened by Ramsey who has no business interfering with the Watch at all.  Who is Jon going to turn to in that case?  Cersei?  The crown is also undermining the Watch.  Whatever covenant the Watch has with the crown is broken and not by Jon.  Only an idiot commander would sit around doing nothing. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

20 minutes ago, WildlingWitch said:

 

Aemon did try to leave.The moment he decided that Daenerys was the princess that was promised he tried to leave but he was too frail.

Also I know this point has been argued already but Melisandra sent them NOT Jon, Jon sent Mance to the Lake. Jon is told by BOTH Melisandra and the Pink Letter that Ramsey DID NOT have Arya.
 

Yeah, when he thought pursuing her would help accomplish the mission of protecting the realms of men(.

As well as humanity in general.

Melisandre introduced Jon to her conspiracy and Jon gave his consent to her endeavor, allowed the turn coat and mass murderer Mance to run free to go get his sister even aided in the endeavor hench the recruitment of the spear wives.

 

If a man comes to you saying he plans to "retrieve" *cough*steal*cough* money from a bank  and asks if you want in you won't be liable for the man's actions if you simply walk away or report him.

You are responsible, if you give that man advice how to pursue his endeavor and help provide the tools he needs.

Even if (really he's not this stupid) to not consider Mance not stealing back who he thought was Arya, he in no way jepordized the watch and everyone under him  over a purely personal grievance.

He was selfish.

Arya is not worth all the lives that could've been lost if this backfired

[Varysblackfyre321]

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Nobody should give a fuck about the oaths.  The fact is that the Watch is not only threatened by what is coming from north of the wall; they are threatened by Ramsey who has no business interfering with the Watch at all.  Who is Jon going to turn to in that case?  Cersei?  The crown is also undermining the Watch.  Whatever covenant the Watch has with the crown is broken and not by Jon.  Only an idiot commander would sit around doing nothing. 

Again, the only reason he's threatening *Jon* in the first place is because Jon refused to respect his oaths and sent his savages to steal Ramsey's wife.

Ramsey's property.

Jon is at fault here.

Jon was selfish.

He wasn't responsible for Arya,

He was responsible for the watch who entrusted him with to lead them and with their lives.

As well as the refugees he allowed in.

As well as ensuring the realms of men were protectEd

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Arya is not worth all the lives that could've been lost if this backfired

Do you realize that none of the forts along the Wall have any kind of fortification?  When the Wall is breached and I'm guessing it will be; the next fall-back point with any fortification is Winterfell.  Unfortunately the place is held by a wing-nut rather than a Stark; so Stannis and Mance better get busy and take the place back.    

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Do you realize that none of the forts along the Wall have any kind of fortification?  When the Wall is breached and I'm guessing it will be; the next fall-back point with any fortification is Winterfell.  Unfortunately the place is held by a wing-nut rather than a Stark; so Stannis and Mance better get busy and take the place back.    

So best to not set fire to the only possible refuge or chance at assistance they may have for one girl.

If the Boltons won, like it or not Jon couldn't afford to be on their bad side.

At the very least they'd be better prepared if Ramsey didn't ride down to wreck vengeance on Jon and his savages and any crows that'd get in his way.

What Jon did was stupid.

It was selfish. 

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So best to not set fire to the only possible refuge or chance at assistance they may have for one girl.

If the Boltons won, like it or not Jon couldn't afford to be on their bad side.

At the very least they'd be better prepared if Ramsey didn't ride down to wreck vengeance on Jon and his savages and any crows that'd get in his way.

What Jon did was stupid.

It was selfish. 

I'm not interested in the argument that Jon should have behaved amorally as if this serves the oath to protect.  It doesn't.  Jon isn't going just to retrieve Arya, he's going to remove Ramsey.

[Varysblackfyre321]

57 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not interested in the argument that Jon should have behaved amorally as if this serves the oath to protect.  It doesn't.  Jon isn't going just to retrieve Arya, he's going to remove Ramsey.

He did act amorally.

He put one girl's wellfare over the lives of thousands of people whose lives have been put in his hands who he swore he'd lead and protect.

He may do away with Ramsey.

That wasn't his intention or plan when he sent out Mance

All he wanted was his sister.

Screw all the people who'd be put at risk so Jon can be a good big bro.

Screw his oaths to relinquish all famial ties to defend the realms of men.

Yeah, one girl's wellfare is worth it.

He was selfish.

Look I understand and can sympathize with Jon's decision.

But that doesn't mean it was the utilitarian one.

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But that doesn't mean it was the utilitarian one

Do you really think Jon is stupid for allowing the wildlings to pass the Wall?  That someone how they shouldn't be included in the 'realms of men'?  The smart thing would have been to let them die and join the undead army; rather than help defend the Wall?

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't have a problem with Jon or anyone else taking out that creepy psychopath Ramsey.  The sooner the better.  To hell with the vows.  The only thing evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.  The problem isn't Jon's moral baggage; it's the Watch's morality deficit disorder.

Damn straight! 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

When an evil fucker like Ramsey threatens the LC and the Watch, backing down is not an option.  That's the big picture for which Jon's love of Arya or his obligation to protect the women already under his care are but details.

And this, of course. 

 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The *only* reason Ramsey even issued the threat in the first place was response to Jon getting his savages to steal his property.

Factually wrong, since the PL arrives before Jon decides to march on Winterfell. Try again.

[Varysblackfyre321]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Do you really think Jon is stupid for allowing the wildlings to pass the Wall?  That someone how they shouldn't be included in the 'realms of men'?  The smart thing would have been to let them die and join the undead army; rather than help defend the Wall?

 

What does that have to do with Jon putting Arya's safety over the lives of all the people he's been tasked to protect?

[Varysblackfyre321]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Damn straight! 

And this, of course. 

 

Factually wrong, since the PL arrives before Jon decides to march on Winterfell. Try again.

Try what again?

"Ramsey" says in the PL basically says" I know what your plan was, give me back my wife or else" which leads to Jon deciding to launch a suicide mission to take winterfell with a wildling hord.

If you can point to any other reason he gave for his letter please do so.

[kissdbyfire]

41 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Try what again?

"Ramsey" says in the PL basically says" I know what your plan was, give me back my wife or else" which leads to Jon deciding to launch a suicide mission to take winterfell with a wildling hord.

If you can point to any other reason he gave for his letter please do so.

It's actually quite simple. Please, read again what you said before.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

  3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The *only* reason Ramsey even issued the threat in the first place was response to Jon getting his savages to steal his property.

So, you said that the only reason Ramsay threats Jon and the Watch (and everyone else from Selyse and Shireen to Val and Monster) is because this was a response to Jon getting the wildlings to steal his property. The thing is, Jon decides to march on Winterfell - and hopefully rid the world of Ramsay - only after receiving the PL. Therefore, Jon's decision to go to Winterfell cannot possibly be Ramsay's "only reason" - or even one of many reasons - to send the letter. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Nobody should give a fuck about the oaths.  The fact is that the Watch is not only threatened by what is coming from north of the wall; they are threatened by Ramsey who has no business interfering with the Watch at all.  Who is Jon going to turn to in that case?  Cersei?  The crown is also undermining the Watch.  Whatever covenant the Watch has with the crown is broken and not by Jon.  Only an idiot commander would sit around doing nothing. 

It's sort of funny actually. Jon is sworn to protect the realms of men. What is the north if not part of the realms of men? What is Ramsay if not someone who is a threat to the realms of men?

The north will never be safe or come together to fight the long night with Ramsay around, and he is threatening everything that Jon has done to protect the realms of men. 

If anything, and in a way, Jon is upholding his vows.

[LynnS]

42 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's sort of funny actually. Jon is sworn to protect the realms of men. What is the north if not part of the realms of men? What is Ramsay if not someone who is a threat to the realms of men?

The north will never be safe or come together to fight the long night with Ramsay around, and he is threatening everything that Jon has done to protect the realms of men. 

If anything, Jon is actually upholding his vows.

Exactly.  Jon is selfless rather than selfish.  We're given that in the very first chapter when he denies himself the pick of one of the direwolves.  He recognizes the humanity of the wildlings, that they are only beyond the Wall by circumstance.   Mance knows this as well; that the meaning of the vows have become twisted, dishonorable and should be broken.   Above all else the old gods count guest rights as inviolable.  Among true (k)nights protecting the weak is paramount. 

it's questionable whether the original vow of the Night's Watch says anything more than the words used by Sam to open the Black Gate.  Not only is there vow to guard the realms of men; there is a covenant with the crown not to engage in the politics of the realm. This isn't a one way street; the crown and the lords paramount are called to support the Watch in their duty; to give complete autonomy to the Watch.  Ramsey and Cersei have broken that covenant and the LC has every right to act in the best interests of the Watch and the realm.  The one thing that Jon cannot do is violate guests rights or break a pledge to protect by giving into any of Ramsey's demands especially when there can no longer be any appeal to crown. Even in the end, Jon doesn't force any conscientious objector to come with him to Winterfell.

Ramsey is the one who violates guest rights:

"A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive." - SoS, Bran IV

 

[the trees have eyes]

Don't feed the troll!

[The Fattest Leech]

You guys know what a sock puppet is, right? They shouldn’t be fed as well. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

44 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Don't feed the troll!

It is so easy to discount those who disagree with you as trolls isn't it?

No one could seriously ever seriously disagree with your flawless logic.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It is so easy to discount those who disagree with you as trolls isn't it?

No one could seriously ever seriously disagree with your flawless logic.

I've said before & I'll say again. I'm all for a mutual discussion regarding Jon's decisions but someone who spews nonsense accusing Jon of things we all know isn't true is a troll. Plain & simple. Either you don't know what Jon did or didn't do (in which case you should reread before discussing) or you do know & choose to state it falsely anyway.