“For the watch”

[The Sunland Lord]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Except there is no evidence for any such law and therefore no reason to think that Jon could justify executing sworn brothers of the NW for exercising their right to choose their LC however they saw fit.

It would also put Jon in a position of beginning his tenure by executing men who had decades of experience at the Wall and considerable support from among his brothers while he, despite Sam's electioneering, has practically none.  It is a recipe for disaster.

In any case Jon does not want to get rid of Marsh or Yarwyck, so it would make no sense to do so to get at Thorne and stir up a shitstorm over it.  If he spared Marsh and Yarwyck but executed Thorne it would look like the settling of a personal vendetta and to be an act of tyranny not justice.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing but only Slynt earns his execution.

Beyond all that it strikes me as immoral to execute these men for this act without any clear understanding that this sort of thing would be a capital offence.  If it were a capital offence they would have killed Jon when he uncovererd their plotting in case he informed on them and since he has become LC they would be living in fear of what he might lawfully do.  They don't do any of this so the logical conclusion is that their plotting may have been frowned upon but was not breaking some taboo that they had reason to fear might cost them their lives.

Let's agree to disagree then. 

I see no point in repeating the same thing again. 

 

[Tagganaro]

4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon and Mance both knew that the spearwives and the deception were needed because they may need to go to the Boltons to get Arya.  Mance risked his lives and the lives of the women because Jon told him to get Arya.  Jon has to take the blame for everything Mance and the women did because they were acting on his behalf.  Widowmaker is right in holding Jon responsible for this illegal mission.   

As has been written multiple times here, Jon had no idea what Mance's/Melisandre's plans were.  He is stunned when Alys Karstark (the grey girl on a dying horse) shows up with Mance nowhere to be seen.  He continues to wonder where Mance is and why he hasn't returned and what "game" or "ploy" Melisandre is playing throughout the rest of ADWD.  There was no talk of deception or disguises when Melisandre revealed Mance to Jon and Jon allowed him to leave with the spearwives.  The spearwives were supposed to be there so Arya would be more likely to trust Mance and go with him.  Mance does mention a ploy he intends to carry out but there is no follow-up from Jon, who is completely in the dark and shocked when Mance doesn't return with Alys.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

11 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Othell...?  Is that you?

Calm down, my good man, it was just a bad dream!

Wild Boar attacks  Tell me that doesn't scare the wits out of you. We're not exactly talking about Gordy the Pig here. Yarwyck doesn't have a high powered firearm either. 

9 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Yes, it's incredibly unreasonable.  At the very least, it betrays a complete misunderstanding of how skin-changing works and what kind of power skinchangers possess.  The idea that one man could threaten hundreds with an army of boars is beyond unreasonable.

How is Yarwyck supposed to know what a skinchanger can and cannot do? He sees that Borroq can control one massive boar, how is he suppose to know he can't potentially control others?  Is that really a huge leap in logic?

Also boars do live in groups. Who's to say Borroq's boar doesn't do what Nymeria the direwolf did and become an alpha of a large pack of boars? Then boars start taking out NW members like the wolves are taking out Freys? 

I actually think Jon did a good job as LC for the most part, considering what he had to work with. However Jon calling it a "Piggy army" as if it's a silly idea is obtuse and negligent. Again, these are not pink little piggies we are talking about.

 

[the trees have eyes]

3 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Wild Boar attacks  Tell me that doesn't scare the wits out of you. We're not exactly talking about Gordy the Pig here. Yarwyck doesn't have a high powered firearm either. 

How is Yarwyck supposed to know what a skinchanger can and cannot do? He sees that Borroq can control one massive boar, how is he suppose to know he can't potentially control others?  Is that really a huge leap in logic?

Also boars do live in groups. Who's to say Borroq's boar doesn't do what Nymeria the direwolf did and become an alpha of a large pack of boars? Then boars start taking out NW members like the wolves are taking out Freys? 

I actually think Jon did a good job as LC for the most part, considering what he had to work with. However Jon calling it a "Piggy army" as if it's a silly idea is obtuse and negligent. Again, these are not pink little piggies we are talking about.

 

I do believe Yarwyck's fear of the pig boar army (if you insist ) is GRRM's way of conveying both his ingrained fear and suspicion of the wildings and both his lack of intellect.  Mormont knew the limitations and prejudices of his subordinates and Jon is seeing these first hand. 

I would have expected the NW to take a different if cautious view of wargs given Ghost has become familiar to a lot of them but though Yarwyck is happy enough (or maybe not) that his Lord Commander has a pet direwolf he seems to be letting prejudice get the better of him by demonising Borroq.  Do the rest of the NW share these fears or is this a peculiarity we are supposed to think reflects poorly on Yarwyck?  I think the latter.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I do believe Yarwyck's fear of the pig boar army (if you insist ) is GRRM's way of conveying both his ingrained fear and suspicion of the wildings and both his lack of intellect.

Well since they are not farm pigs or hogs and are in fact wild boars, I'm not really insisting but rather stating a fact. I think it conveys a lack of intellect and knowledge of wildlife for Jon or anyone to write them off as only pigs, as if to label them as some non lethal  friendly animal. Yarwyck is the First Builder of the NW, I think it's fair to assume it's his job to know the Wall's structures and surroundings. He said that the woods north of Stonedoor were full of wild boars. Which suggests he has seen them, and possibly what they are capable of doing.

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Mormont knew the limitations and prejudices of his subordinates and Jon is seeing these first hand. 

I'm not arguing whether this is the case or not. The issue at hand for me is that of wild boars, and the destruction they can leave in their wake.

 

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I would have expected the NW to take a different if cautious view of wargs given Ghost has become familiar to a lot of them but though Yarwyck is happy enough (or maybe not) that his Lord Commander has a pet direwolf he seems to be letting prejudice get the better of him by demonising Borroq. 

I don't know, has anyone sat down and explained to Yarwyck and the NW what a skinchanger is and what they are and aren't capable of doing? Jon has not told anyone in the NW he skinchanges with Ghost, so they simple see Ghost as Jon's loyal companion, almost like a dog. So since Jon himself has not corrected them, why would they think that Jon and Ghost are the same as Borroq and his wicked beast? Also most of the NW got to meet Ghost when he was smaller and have gotten used to him. Perhaps if Borroq spent less time in a creepy graveyard with his giant boar the NW members might think of him as less of an outcast.

Skinchangers may be honored by the Free Folk, but the Free Folk also fear them like the NW and everyone else south of the Wall. Then you add the fact that one controls a snarling, ugly, monstrous boar and I'd say the fear is warranted. 

7 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Do the rest of the NW share these fears or is this a peculiarity we are supposed to think reflects poorly on Yarwyck? 

It would probably depend on if they were also scared of grisly massive boars with tusks the size of swords that stared at them with dead eyes. .  

[Son of Man]

21 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

And as many of the reasonable people here have written more than a few times.  Jon sent Mance Rayder to fetch his sister and Jon's plan was to take Arya away from Ramsay.  Mance didn't go through the trouble of disguises just so he could pick up Arya from the road.  Jon and Mance both knew that the spearwives and the deception were needed because they may need to go to the Boltons to get Arya.  Mance risked his lives and the lives of the women because Jon told him to get Arya.  Jon has to take the blame for everything Mance and the women did because they were acting on his behalf.  Widowmaker is right in holding Jon responsible for this illegal mission.   

Jon is the one responsible for bringing Bolton wrath down on the wall.  Arya was no longer his concern but he chose to make her his concern.  What happens between Ramsay and Arya is not Jon's business.  Jon should have kept his nose out of it.  No amount of spin and lame excuses from his fans can relieve Jon from this guilt.  Jon is guilty of interfering with Bolton affairs.  He's guilty of treason against the Night's Watch for ordering Mance Rayder to take his sister away from the Boltons.  That is exactly what Jon was doing.  Jon was planning to get his sister away from Ramsay.  That's putting his nose where it doesn't belong.  He was the one who ordered his own man to bring those widling women to Mance.  Mance was doing this on Jon's behalf.

On 12/13/2017 at 11:43 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Again, as has been stated time & time again Mance was sent to rescue a fleeing Arya. If you take issue with that, that's fine but in order to be taken seriously or to have a discussion on the matter you will have to attribute things to Jon that he actually did. 

It was a conditional threat but the conditions could not be met by the NW so what do you think would be the correct response to said threats?

It's an act of war according to who? Other than the Jon-haters there is no law or rule in place that says allowing someone to rescue a woman fleeing from an abusive marriage is an act of war. That is more of your trumped up charges against Jon. 

Mance should have been executed according to who? It is true the punishment for desertion is death, however, it is well within the authority of the LC to decide this particular desertion does not deserve death. Whether or not you agree or disagree with Lord Commander Jon Snow's decision is irrelevant as you are not Lord Commander. There is one person with the authority and duty to decide what is best for the watch & it isn't you or Bowen Marsh. It is the Lord Commander. The same as decisions were made by Lord Commander Mormont before him. When LC Mormont gave an order or decision Jon didn't like he did it anyway because that is his duty as a man of the NW. On what grounds does Bowen Marsh not have to do the same thing? Because his feelings were hurt? Because he disagreed more with Jon's decisions than Jon did with Mormont's? Nope. None of that holds any water. Bowen not only failed to do his duty but he also mutinied against his LC. 

I can agree with you that there are some "hate" in some of the messages but most of the arguments against you are very good.  They're not necessarily hating, they're just not willing to give Jon an excuse.  You keep asking for book quotes.  You seem to know those chapters as well as most.  It is obvious that George Martin put Jon in a situation where he had to choose between saving Arya from Ramsay or remaining loyal to his duties and his oaths.  Jon foollishly chose Arya and he is guilty of treason.  He knew it.   No amount of quotes will convince you because you seem to have made up your mind that you're going to defend Jon. 

[The Fattest Leech]

Oh look, another gator eater has shown up 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Ascension of the Metatron said:

can agree with you that there are some "hate" in some of the messages but most of the arguments against you are very good

My issue is that the argument cannot be good if there are false allegations. There are definitely other opinions to Jon's decisions that are just as valid as mine. 

 

4 hours ago, Ascension of the Metatron said:

They're not necessarily hating, they're just not willing to give Jon an excuse. 

If the allegations is knowingly false it is hating. Not to say every poster does this but the ones I'm talking to do. I don't & cannot give Jon an excuse for something he hasn't done. 

 

4 hours ago, Ascension of the Metatron said:

You keep asking for book quotes

And have yet to be provided with one. If you or anyone else take issue with the decisions Jon made that's ok. That's what we are here to discuss. I'm not asking for quotes that make Jon's decisions right or wrong. I'm asking for quotes to back erroneous claims. 

 

4 hours ago, Ascension of the Metatron said:

Jon is the one responsible for bringing Bolton wrath down on the wall.  Arya was no longer his concern but he chose to make her his concern.  What happens between Ramsay and Arya is not Jon's business.  Jon should have kept his nose out of it.  No amount of spin and lame excuses from his fans can relieve Jon from this guilt.  Jon is guilty of interfering with Bolton affairs.  He's guilty of treason against the Night's Watch for ordering Mance Rayder to take his sister away from the Boltons.  That is exactly what Jon was doing.  Jon was planning to get his sister away from Ramsay.  That's putting his nose where it doesn't belong.  He was the one who ordered his own man to bring those widling women to Mance.  Mance was doing this on Jon's behalf.

For instance the bolded is your opinion & even though it disagrees with mine I don't find it offensive nor to I ask for quotes to back it. 

Then we get to "for ordering Mance Rayder to take his sister away from the Bolton's" 

If this occurred there should be no trouble providing a quote of Jon making said command. I think we all know I can provide a quote backing my alternative claim that Melisandre sent Mance to rescue a fleeing fArya, already fled from WF & therefore not taking her from the Bolton's. 

"Jon was planning to get his sister away from Ramsay" again, not a matter of opinion on Jon's decisions but a false claim on what Jon planned or did not. Another thing there shouldn't be an issue providing a quote for. 

"He was the one who ordered his own man to bring those wildling women to Mance" he absolutely did. If you are of the opinion this was a bad decision ok. But ordering a man of the NW to get spearwives from Mole's Town does not = Jon commanding Mance to do anything. If you want to argue this act makes Jon an accomplice to the plan to rescue a fleeing fArya (the only plan Jon was aware of) I would not argue with you. But to say Jon had any part in whatever the plan was regarding WF is nonsense because Jon never knew Mance planned on going to WF. If Jon didn't know this he couldn't possibly have been a part of any plan to steal Arya from Ramsay. 

[Faera]

*Stands up*

My name is Faera and I still stand behind Lord Commander Jon Snow. 

Now, where is my mutineer hanging rope?
 

On 09/12/2017 at 5:27 AM, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

Rather than respond to individual posts, as I tried to do last night and lost everything I had spent an hour writing, I'm going to just throw my thoughts into the mix. First in response to the OP, I don't think the mutineers were skinchanged. I agree with the other responses that recalled the experience of Varamyr in the Prologue of ADWD. I'm intrigued with the possibility of other factors coming into play, but just don't think there is enough evidence of anything to say conclusively that Jon was poisoned or debilitated with milk of the poppy, but it's an interesting idea. I also think there are probably other conspirators too, and some of them will be men whose betrayal of Jon will be even more devastating to him personally, than Marsh or Wick's betrayals. I say betrayal because that is what happened, regardless of motivation or criticism or doubts of Jon's leadership. Men who were his sworn brothers and under his rule surrounded him in the cold and dark and confusion and knifed him. Men who coincidentally, would most likely be dead if not for Jon saving them from a well planned and coordinated wildling invasion. How anyone doesn't read that passage and see it as tragic is really beyond me. I do think Marsh is crying because he knows it's a cold dishonorable act and he knows it's murder and it's mutiny. You can argue Jon's decision was oathbreaking and you can call it treasonous, both claims that I will respond to, but bottom line, Jon was their Lord Commander, freely chosen by the men of the NW, and he was assassinated by his sworn brothers.

 There are a number of really good responses in this thread to the view of Jon as treasonous. Walda and the trees have eyes have some excellently thought out and articulated replies. Thank you for your thoughts and effort. Walda makes a very important point on what treason is and I'd like to expand on that distinction. Treason is an act against a legitimate monarch, government etc. by a subject or citizen of that country. What Jaime did in killing Aerys was treason, as well as oathbreaking. The treason was the killing the legitimate king. The oathbreaking was ignoring his vow to protect the king, ironically from himself. When Brandon Stark demands Rhaegar face him (presumably with sword in hand) it is treason. When Jon Arryn refuses to send his wards to Aerys and calls his banner, he commits treason and begins an outright rebellion against the throne. When Janos Slynt arrests Eddard Stark, the rightful Lord Regent,  at the behest of Littlefinger and Cersei, they are all committing treason. In all of those instances the treasonous acts were from sworn subjects of the 7 Kingdoms against either the legitimate ruler or his heir.

 I bring these examples up to make a subtle but very important distinction when looking at Jon's actions. It is impossible for Jon to commit treason because he is not a subject of the 7 Kingdoms. If the NW were subject to the ruler of the 7 Kingdoms, we should expect them to be run much like the Gold Cloaks of the City Watch, who are subjects. Their Lord would be appointed. They would be paid to do their duties and their duties would be whatever the king decided they were to be, because in the 7 Kingdoms the command of the king is the Law. The NW is dependent on the 7 Kingdoms for men and resources but it isn't subject to it's rule. This is why the Gift is a gift. The then sitting king and queen of the 7 Kingdoms presented the then acting Lord Commander with lands owned by their subject, the Warden of the North and then Lord of Winterfell. If the Lord of Winterfell had refused them, it would have been treason.  The NW is an independent brotherhood of exiles dedicated to the preservation of the realm, but it exists outside of it. When a man chooses to take the black, he has chosen to go into exile to a frontier region outside the realm of the 7 Kingdoms. It is done with the knowledge that it is a death sentence to return to the 7 Kingdoms without the express permission of the Lord Commander or permission of the King, once inside the realm, if he should so decree. The leader of the NW is a chosen Lord but from his election until his death, he is the Law on the Wall. His commands are the only law. Now, obviously delegation occurs down through the ranks, but the Lord is the final arbiter of law on the Wall. Jon can legally command the Watch to do whatever he wants them to do. This is to me one of the beautiful things about Jon's arc and one I think gets overlooked quite a bit. So many readers speculate that Jon might become King of the IT, but in a very real sense he has already assumed kingly powers and responsibilities by virtue of being elected Lord Commander of the Wall. The treaty with the wildlings, the marriage of Alys and Sigorn, the execution of Janos Slynt and indeed the execution by arrow of Rattleshirt/Mance are all examples of him exercising his legitimate ruling power within the boundaries of the Wall. I believe Stannis is well aware of this distinction, as well. If Jon had been subject to the IT, Stannis, the self declared (and likely strongest legal claimant) King of The 7 Kingdoms, could have commanded him to become Lord of Winterfell, but he doesn't. He offers him a Lordship, legitimization as a Stark and permission to legitimately return from exile on the Wall. Notice too, how Stannis never commands Jon to do something, but treats with him much like he would treat with an envoy from Essos or any other country outside his perceived realm. He was aggravated by the arrow execution, but did not reprimand or imprison, or even execute Jon for insubordination. How do you think it would have gone if Massey or any of his other subjects had defied his wishes like Jon did?

 All of the above is only to show that Jon did not and indeed could not act treasonously, but of course all the complexities of the situation at the Wall are still in play. In order to effectively wield the power that is rightfully his, Jon needs to have means to do so. The means simply being enough men to believe in him and/or follow his commands, like the answer to Varys riddle to Tyrion, and the resources necessary to carry out those commands. All things Jon has worked diligently to bring together, for what he believes to be his duty to the preservation of the realm of the 7 Kingdoms. The treaty with the wildlings, the loan from the Iron Bank, the support and supplies to Stannis and the reoccupation of abandoned forts are all perfectly within his rights and duties, as Lord Commander. Alliances and capital, of course, being the domain of rulers and kings, as well as gifting castles to those allies, if he should so choose. Signals of ruling power that are not lost on those around him, either. I believe Tormund and many other wildlings already view Jon as their ruler too, when this happens:

 

  Again, it is such a quintessential moment for the character we all know, "Knows Nothing," to become a defacto King of the Wildlings as seemingly unaware as when he became "husband" to Ygritte when he "stole" her on the Skirling Pass. If they named Jon, King o' the Wildlings directly, I'm certain he would reject the term and a crown to go with the term, if one existed, much the same way he wrestles with the perception of Val as a princess, but if they follow his commands as law, does it really matter what he is styled? The other interesting part of this quote is "No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone." As Lord Commander, Jon can rightfully command them to break their vows, however he sees fit, in the same way Qhorin commanded him to break his vows, as Lord Commander Mormont's delegated commander of the scouting mission. Qhorin is not called Halfhand just because he's missing fingers. I think it's a clever allusion to him being a Halfhand to Mormont's Halfking status as Lord Commander, a status that Jon now holds (or did, depending). The expulsion of Barristan from the Kingsguard is another example of a ruler commanding a subject to disavow himself. I'm not saying it's a good or right or just thing to do, but in a system where the one on top's commands are law, it's legitimate. So much of that thought is bound to Jon's perceptions and sense of honor. He wants to spare them the pain he endured when ordered by Qhorin to turn his cloak and kill him. He wants to spare them the dishonor and shame of oathbreaking, which leads me to:

 

 Which oath is Jon breaking by leading an expedition to confront Ramsey? There is no wife to gain, no lands to take, no crown and no glory to be had (although Ramsey carved up into dog food is dangerously close to glorious), so that leaves live and die at my post. Who decides what your post is when you become a sworn brother? The Lord Commander and his delegated officers do. It's interesting that the first NW we see are all away from the Wall. Waymar, Gared and Will are on a scouting mission, presumably under a command by Mormont. Gared is then beheaded by Eddard for desertion, under the delegated command of King Robert, for presumably being found in the company of wildings south of the Wall with no legitimate permission of Lord Commander Mormont. Benjen shows up Winterfell and attends the banquet in honor of the King and Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, but is not beheaded, so presumably he had legitimate permission from his Lord Commander to be there.  I believe it's not the first time he's been home since joining the Watch either and would surmise that is because the Lord of Winterfell is the chief friend of the Watch in the entire 7 Kingdoms and their most important ally, so it would make sense that Benjen was combining work with fun and cultivating that relationship between Winterfell and the NW. Therefore, if Jon decides that his post is not at Castle Black waiting for Ramsey to come with a list of demands he can't possibly meet and threatening his life if he doesn't meet them, it is his right and duty to do whatever he deems the appropriate response. Furthermore, if his expedition also results in the rescue of his sister, so much the better, but it isn't his primary objective (although probably his heart's wish). It would be what I like to think of as gifts from the Old Gods, like his execution of Janos Slynt. Slynt was executed for disobeying a direct command from his Lord Commander, not once but three times. It was insubordination and had the potential to fester into outright treasonous rebellion. Those were Jon's legitimate motivations and actually the thoughts he has leading up to it are centered on those motivations, but it's poetic justice that he also happened to be the pompous, bloviating, treasonous asshole behind the arrest and execution of his father, the rightful Regent of the 7 Kingdoms at the time of his arrest. Now, there is plenty of space to debate whether Jon's decisions at the Shieldhall were tactically the right moves but his authority to make those decisions is clear. Personally, I think it was a mistake tactically, because I think he acted prematurely and clearly was not as aware of the dangers surrounding him as he thought he was. I think he let his frustration and anger guide him at a moment when he needed to be most clear headed. I believe the lesson Jon will learn from the Ides of Marsh, should he survive, will be that he needs to utilize all the power available to him and it may play out that it was a mistake that will lead to a better outcome ultimately. And listen to your Direwolf always!

 

Seriously, playing catch-up with this thread, I loved this post!

(And "Beware the Ides of Marsh"! Or "daggers in the dark" whatever. The moment Jon leaves Ghost behind, my heart sinks a little...)

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh look, another gator eater has shown up 

Are you reading my mind now?

25 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

And have yet to be provided with one. If you or anyone else take issue with the decisions Jon made that's ok. That's what we are here to discuss. I'm not asking for quotes that make Jon's decisions right or wrong. I'm asking for quotes to back erroneous claims. 

 

My crystal ball tells me no one will be able to provide the quotes you're asking for. Wait, I don't need a crystal ball to know that, because there are no quotes to back up the argument that Jon sent Mance to Winterfell to kidnap Mrs Bolton.

 

[the trees have eyes]

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Well since they are not farm pigs or hogs and are in fact wild boars, I'm not really insisting but rather stating a fact. I think it conveys a lack of intellect and knowledge of wildlife for Jon or anyone to write them off as only pigs, as if to label them as some non lethal  friendly animal. Yarwyck is the First Builder of the NW, I think it's fair to assume it's his job to know the Wall's structures and surroundings. He said that the woods north of Stonedoor were full of wild boars. Which suggests he has seen them, and possibly what they are capable of doing.

I'm not arguing whether this is the case or not. The issue at hand for me is that of wild boars, and the destruction they can leave in their wake.

 

I don't know, has anyone sat down and explained to Yarwyck and the NW what a skinchanger is and what they are and aren't capable of doing? Jon has not told anyone in the NW he skinchanges with Ghost, so they simple see Ghost as Jon's loyal companion, almost like a dog. So since Jon himself has not corrected them, why would they think that Jon and Ghost are the same as Borroq and his wicked beast? Also most of the NW got to meet Ghost when he was smaller and have gotten used to him. Perhaps if Borroq spent less time in a creepy graveyard with his giant boar the NW members might think of him as less of an outcast.

Skinchangers may be honored by the Free Folk, but the Free Folk also fear them like the NW and everyone else south of the Wall. Then you add the fact that one controls a snarling, ugly, monstrous boar and I'd say the fear is warranted. 

It would probably depend on if they were also scared of grisly massive boars with tusks the size of swords that stared at them with dead eyes. .  

I think you just need to ask one question here: are we, the readers, meant to think Yarwyck's fear of a wild boar army is a reasonable one?  It seems you may but do you really think this was GRRM's intention?

[Tagganaro]

35 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think you just need to ask one question here: are we, the readers, meant to think Yarwyck's fear of a wild boar army is a reasonable one?  It seems you may but do you really think this was GRRM's intention?

I can't believe this is still being argued.

[Tagganaro]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For instance the bolded is your opinion & even though it disagrees with mine I don't find it offensive nor to I ask for quotes to back it. 

Then we get to "for ordering Mance Rayder to take his sister away from the Bolton's" 

If this occurred there should be no trouble providing a quote of Jon making said command. I think we all know I can provide a quote backing my alternative claim that Melisandre sent Mance to rescue a fleeing fArya, already fled from WF & therefore not taking her from the Bolton's. 

"Jon was planning to get his sister away from Ramsay" again, not a matter of opinion on Jon's decisions but a false claim on what Jon planned or did not. Another thing there shouldn't be an issue providing a quote for. 

"He was the one who ordered his own man to bring those wildling women to Mance" he absolutely did. If you are of the opinion this was a bad decision ok. But ordering a man of the NW to get spearwives from Mole's Town does not = Jon commanding Mance to do anything. If you want to argue this act makes Jon an accomplice to the plan to rescue a fleeing fArya (the only plan Jon was aware of) I would not argue with you. But to say Jon had any part in whatever the plan was regarding WF is nonsense because Jon never knew Mance planned on going to WF. If Jon didn't know this he couldn't possibly have been a part of any plan to steal Arya from Ramsay. 

This is where reading comes into play- either read the thread or re-read the books .  We have Jon's POV from the books, thoughts and reactions that he has, that directly contradict and outright refute the idea that he had any prior knowledge of Mance showing up at Winterfell.  These quotes and thoughts have already been re-produced hundreds of times in this thread alone.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are you reading my mind now?

My crystal ball tells me no one will be able to provide the quotes you're asking for. Wait, I don't need a crystal ball to know that, because there are no quotes to back up the argument that Jon sent Mance to Winterfell to kidnap Mrs Bolton.

 

Haha Yes! 

 

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

This is where reading comes into play- either read the thread or re-read the books .  We have Jon's POV from the books, thoughts and reactions that he has, that directly contradict and outright refute the idea that he had any prior knowledge of Mance showing up at Winterfell.  These quotes and thoughts have already been re-produced hundreds of times in this thread alone.  

I know. It drives me unreasonably insane. I would love to discuss the morality & legality of Jon's decisions but the thread consistently gets clogged up with nonsense & every time I think possibly someone has gotten through to one "hater" another pops up in it's place spewing the same ridiculousness the other poster did, still with nothing to back it up. I really do just need to ignore it because it gets me no where... 

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha Yes! 

 

I know. It drives me unreasonably insane. I would love to discuss the morality & legality of Jon's decisions but the thread consistently gets clogged up with nonsense & every time I think possibly someone has gotten through to one "hater" another pops up in it's place spewing the same ridiculousness the other poster did, still with nothing to back it up. I really do just need to ignore it because it gets me no where... 

It has taken me a long time to learn this as well. Sometimes my demons win and I cave, but once you’ve seen one specific hater troll, you’ve seen them all. Literally. They repeat and parrot what the other says without any book info to back them up. 

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I know. It drives me unreasonably insane. I would love to discuss the morality & legality of Jon's decisions but the thread consistently gets clogged up with nonsense & every time I think possibly someone has gotten through to one "hater" another pops up in it's place spewing the same ridiculousness the other poster did, still with nothing to back it up. I really do just need to ignore it because it gets me no where... 

 

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It has taken me a long time to learn this as well. Sometimes my demons win and I cave, but once you’ve seen one specific hater troll, you’ve seen them all. Literally. They repeat and parrot what the other says without any book info to back them up. 

Yeah, that's how it goes, innit. We desperately need a "YAWN" emoticon, because seriously, how mind-numbingly boring it is... *yawn yawn yawn*.

The thing w/ none of he usual suspects being able to provide a book quote to back up their silly arguments is... wait for it... such quote doesn't exist! So, all those defending certain ideas can do is just repeat and repeat the same nonsense over and over again, and hope it sticks. It won't, of course, but who cares?  

What I struggle to understand is, why would anyone rather come across as someone w/ massive reading comprehension issues just to annoy those who like Jon? I mean, seriously?

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh look, another gator eater has shown up 

Laughing my ass off. That is such a loaded statement.  I'm hearing the Cops theme song.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

We desperately need a "YAWN" emoticon,

I agree.

10 hours ago, Ascension of the Metatron said:

I can agree with you that there are some "hate" in some of the messages but most of the arguments against you are very good.  They're not necessarily hating, they're just not willing to give Jon an excuse.  You keep asking for book quotes.  You seem to know those chapters as well as most.  It is obvious that George Martin put Jon in a situation where he had to choose between saving Arya from Ramsay or remaining loyal to his duties and his oaths.  Jon foollishly chose Arya and he is guilty of treason.  He knew it.   No amount of quotes will convince you because you seem to have made up your mind that you're going to defend Jon. 

LC Snow as far as I know and from what I read as of the end of DwD did not send Mance to to WF.

Supposedly Mance was let loose to intercept a girl on a horse fleeing her marriage due to one of Mel's visions. The girl turns out to be a Karstark.

Either there is a shit load of information that the reader is not privy to or there is a glitch. At the time Jon receives the letter that demands Ramsey's bride be returned Stannis is in possession of fArya and Theon.

Speaking of Mance in the guise of Abel --- being caught and put in a cage --- this is his last known position:

A Dance with Dragons - Theon I       "As he says. There will be time enough to fight each other once we are done with Stannis." He turned his head, his pale cold eyes searching the hall until they found the bard Abel beside Theon. "Singer," he called, "come sing us something soothing."       Abel bowed. "If it please your lordship." Lute in hand, he sauntered to the dais, hopping nimbly over a corpse or two, and seated himself cross-legged on the high table. As he began to play—a sad, soft song that Theon Greyjoy did not recognize—Ser Hosteen, Ser Aenys, and their fellow Freys turned away to lead their horses from the hall./

Mance, or if you wish, Abel has full view of the hall. To his back is the Lord's door.

A Clash of Kings - Bran III       They went out the rear rather than walk the length of the hall, Bran ducking his head as they passed through the lord's door. In the dim-lit gallery outside the Great Hall, they came upon Joseth the master of horse engaged in a different sort of riding.

My question is that is that during the time his women are trying to get fArya out of WF and alarm goes out does Mance have time to get out of the Hall? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It has taken me a long time to learn this as well. Sometimes my demons win and I cave, but once you’ve seen one specific hater troll, you’ve seen them all. Literally. They repeat and parrot what the other says without any book info to back them up. 

I'm still learning

I think we should start calling them parrots instead of trolls. It's very fitting. 

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, that's how it goes, innit. We desperately need a "YAWN" emoticon, because seriously, how mind-numbingly boring it is... *yawn yawn yawn*.

Yes! 

 

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The thing w/ none of he usual suspects being able to provide a book quote to back up their silly arguments is... wait for it... such quote doesn't exist! So, all those defending certain ideas can do is just repeat and repeat the same nonsense over and over again, and hope it sticks. It won't, of course, but who cares?

Agreed. Sometimes I ignore it for a couple days & when I can't anymore I post again. 

 

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

What I struggle to understand is, why would anyone rather come across as someone w/ massive reading comprehension issues just to annoy those who like Jon? I mean, seriously

I have no idea. I also wonder do this many people have the same crazy notion of what happened in the books? Are some of them the same person under a different user name? Do they just read the other posts & parrot them back at us?  it's an enigma. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Laughing my ass off. That is such a loaded statement.  I'm hearing the Cops theme song.

I agree.

LC Snow as far as I know and from what I read as of the end of DwD did not send Mance to to WF.

Supposedly Mance was let loose to intercept a girl on a horse fleeing her marriage due to one of Mel's visions. The girl turns out to be a Karstark.

Either there is a shit load of information that the reader is not privy to or there is a glitch. At the time Jon receives the letter that demands Ramsey's bride be returned Stannis is in possession of fArya and Theon.

Speaking of Mance in the guise of Abel --- being caught and put in a cage --- this is his last known position:

A Dance with Dragons - Theon I       "As he says. There will be time enough to fight each other once we are done with Stannis." He turned his head, his pale cold eyes searching the hall until they found the bard Abel beside Theon. "Singer," he called, "come sing us something soothing."       Abel bowed. "If it please your lordship." Lute in hand, he sauntered to the dais, hopping nimbly over a corpse or two, and seated himself cross-legged on the high table. As he began to play—a sad, soft song that Theon Greyjoy did not recognize—Ser Hosteen, Ser Aenys, and their fellow Freys turned away to lead their horses from the hall./

Mance, or if you wish, Abel has full view of the hall. To his back is the Lord's door.

A Clash of Kings - Bran III       They went out the rear rather than walk the length of the hall, Bran ducking his head as they passed through the lord's door. In the dim-lit gallery outside the Great Hall, they came upon Joseth the master of horse engaged in a different sort of riding.

My question is that is that during the time his women are trying to get fArya out of WF and alarm goes out does Mance have time to get out of the Hall? 

Interesting. I don't know & all it does is bring back to mind that damnable pink letter. Is Mance caught or not caught? If he is not who wants to pretend he is? What does the author of the PL have to gain & what motives are behind writing it?

What if Ramsay really did write it & everything he says is true? It can't be though. Can it? 

[The Fattest Leech]

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Interesting. I don't know & all it does is bring back to mind that damnable pink letter. Is Mance caught or not caught? If he is not who wants to pretend he is? What does the author of the PL have to gain & what motives are behind writing it?

What if Ramsay really did write it & everything he says is true? It can't be though. Can it? 

This, very much. The damnable pink letter is causing a lot of stress at CB as the moment... not to mention the fact that there are clues that it could have been tampered with... which coincidentally follows not too long after Lady Dustin goes on and on with Theon about why not to trust a “grey rat” maester. It’s kinda like the author was setting it up for the reader, or something