Could Lightbringer be the Night's Watch?

[NichealBluth]

^Good point about the 3 forging attempts! I completely forgot about Jon ditching the wall in the first book.

I was always a little hesistant to follow this theory but it makes more sense now that I understand the 3 attempts. I would still prefer a flaming sword, though. After all, Jon did have a dream he was in black ice armor with a red (Was it red or flaming?) sword slaying Others. And even if the NW is lightbringer, they seem pretty screwed now. Sure, they have wildlings on their side, but the Others seem like too big of a threat. Jon has a lot of work to do (which makes me think the sacrfices might not be finished) before he can save the world.

A little off-topic but what if the blue eyed king who cast no shadow with a flaming sword Dany saw was Jon? Maybe Jon spends some time in those ice cells and becomes a half wight or whatever, giving him blue eyes. It's a little crazy, but with everyone believing it's Stannis, it's a great way for GRRM to surprise us.

[Gust07]

^Good point about the 3 forging attempts! I completely forgot about Jon ditching the wall in the first book.

I was always a little hesistant to follow this theory but it makes more sense now that I understand the 3 attempts. I would still prefer a flaming sword, though. After all, Jon did have a dream he was in black ice armor with a red (Was it red or flaming?) sword slaying Others. And even if the NW is lightbringer, they seem pretty screwed now. Sure, they have wildlings on their side, but the Others seem like too big of a threat. Jon has a lot of work to do (which makes me think the sacrfices might not be finished) before he can save the world.

A little off-topic but what if the blue eyed king who cast no shadow with a flaming sword Dany saw was Jon? Maybe Jon spends some time in those ice cells and becomes a half wight or whatever, giving him blue eyes. It's a little crazy, but with everyone believing it's Stannis, it's a great way for GRRM to surprise us.

Well Jon have done a great job being the LC, I don’t think he is going to die because of his dream, and yes he have made a hug mistake….. but was only one!

In his dream she is red and is hot! That’s why I think is a sword!

Thanks for like my theory!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I like that a lot. NW=LB. Yes please!

[The Answer]

Based on this theory, what do you think we should make of this Melisandre passage?

Page 408, Melisandre: ADwD

"Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half revealed and half concealed within the sacred flames. Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

I originally took this for Jon 'Snow' (especially because of the capital S). But perhaps it could resemble the Nights Watch... verry interesting.

[Lion of Judah]

Interesting theory, I always referred to Maester Aemon's reaction to the blade Stannis carries. It seemed to me that he himself was expecting it to be a sword, but when it showed no characteristics of lightbringer he knew it wasn't the right one. I would be very surprised if it wasn't a sword, but I also considered if the sword had to be in the right hands to be lightbringer. If the sword Stannis carries is not lightbringer that would mean Melisandre knows it's fake and has some ulterior motive. I like this theory though because it throws a shank into conventional thinking.

[Alexander Stark]

Ive often felt that Azor Ahai or the Last Hero made the NW and it was lightbringer, but we have the problem of a red comet heralding AA reborn, at the time of the comet Mormont was still LC.

Wait, maybe the universe saw Jons change of heart, the whole, im going to Robb and not being having fully conviction to the war against the others, to decideing he was a man of the NW. maybe his old self was his nissa nissa.i dont even know what this thread is about but im enjoying rambling to myself and getting myself all worked up

[The Answer]

And I'm not going to lie, there was no way I was going to read this whole thread, so bare with me if it's been said.

But Melisandre's 'powers' being more powerful near the wall could still be supported by this theory. I always took that as they were stronger because she was close to Jon, but really, she was just closer to the Nights Watch.

[Sanset]

Very interesting thread. :cheers:

It takes time to read, but it worth the reading. I've learned a lot.

And, of course, I love the OP Theory. :)

Yes, this is from ASOS.

Here's what I'd like to know: why doesn't the Night's Watch vow say "I am the watcher on the Wall"? Why does the vow say "I am the watcher on the wall(s)"?

I'd never noticed the "s" before. :o I would really like to know what it means, too.

Don't you find it interesting that the Westerosi tale of the Last Hero doesn't seem to include a promise of return? Granted, our main source for the story, Old Nan, gets cut off in her telling of it, and where she leaves off, all hope is lost. The Last Hero has lost his horse, his dog, his companions on the way to find the Children of the Forest, and then when Sam speaks of him later, he's suddenly acquired a dragonsteel sword, turned the tide, and he's now slaying the Others.

What's going on here? Perhaps this is not a story about one hero. Even the name "Last Hero" suggests that there were other heroes, other claimants to that mantle.

I do think it's interesting that the northern version of the story says nothing about a return, but like I said above, the north isn't really "into" prophecy the way that Asshai and Valyria seem to be. I really do think it all depends on the cultural lens through which you view the story.

If we assume the northerns myths are connected, "Winter is coming" is expressing a return without any doubt. The North remembers. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. The Night's Watch is also telling there will be another Winter.

The three-eyed crow (Boodraven) tells Bran before his awakening "winter is coming".

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

“Why?” Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

(AGOT, Bran III)

(Italics is original)

Old Nan was interrupted, but notice what Maester Luwin and Old Nan say after Hodor:

“We have visitors (Winter is visiting) and your presence is required, Bran.”

The door opened with a bang, and Bran’s heart leapt up into his mouth in sudden fear, but it was only Maester Luwin, with Hodor looming in the stairway behind him. “Hodor!” the stableboy announced, as was his custom, smiling hugely at them all.

Maester Luwin was not smiling. “We have visitors,” he announced, “and your presence is required, Bran.”

“I’m listening to a story now,” Bran complained.

“Stories wait, my little lord, and when you come back to them, why, there they are,” Old Nan said. “Visitors are not so patient, and ofttimes they bring stories of their own.”

“Who is it?” Bran asked Maester Luwin.

“Tyrion Lannister, and some men of the Night’s Watch, with word from your brother Jon. Robb is meeting with them now. Hodor, will you help Bran down to the hall?”

“Hodor!” Hodor agreed happily. He ducked to get his great shaggy head under the door. Hodor was nearly seven feet tall. It was hard to believe that he was the same blood as Old Nan. Bran wondered if he would shrivel up as small as his great-grandmother when he was old. It did not seem likely, even if Hodor lived to be a thousand.

(AGOT, Bran IV)

(Bold and underline added)

Since I read in the thread «The secret meaning of "Hodor"» Hodor could mean "hot door" I can't think of any other meaning. ;)

[The Mother of The Others]

Can Night's watch be lightbringer?

Not until they do something. They've proven that they don't shine just by existing. Maybe by existing they keep the wall humming along and preserve what hope there is. But that's not offense. If they want a special nickname from prophecy they should 1) shower and shave 2) go out and earn it. Maybe if they can remember the oldschool excellence of the Watch we might see them casting some manpower magics and bringing some light back into the great white north. They need a good honing. Maybe that's what's underway.

[GurplePurple]

I'm new here, so I haven't seen many alternatives to what Lightbringer could be. I read the books one after the other fairly quickly, and to me the Night's watch vows seemed strikingly similar to the whole Azor Ahai prophecy. So I was happy to see I'm not alone in my interpretation :D

As to the strength of the Night's Watch, back in the old days, they were presumably all First Men. Naturally there would be several skin changers or wargs among the Watch, which would make them fairly powerful in combat. I think the presence of these skin changers and wargs may be one of the sources of the legendary status attributed to the Watch in the old days. Today, the Watch consists mostly of the scum of Andal society (no wargs except Jon, but he's a Stark), which just spells disaster when push comes to shove. But then as Lord Commander, Jon allowed many wildlings through the wall, and among them there are likely a few skinchangers aside from Borroq (I think it's likely, given that the odds are 1 Skinchanger for every 1000 people). This is of course a plus for the strength of the Watch, and when Jon comes back (assuming the wildlings are still on his side), the Watch will be stronger due to the presence of wildlings.

[The Promised Prince]

I have a question... Is there any mention to what happened to the original Lightbringer? I've been looking for info on this but I can't find much. I've found sources placing Azor Ahai 8,000 and 5,000 years before Aegon's Landing; either way, it was thousands of years before AL. Still, isn't it possible that the actual sword is still around?

And another question: I have found this (http://awoiaf.wester...zor_Ahai#note-0 :)

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Does anyone know if that's an actual quote?

It is a quote, just found it. ACoK, chapter 10, Davos. It's Melisandre speaking.

My sig.

Great insight, I always thought it was odd that Jon Snow was the 998th LC while there are no records of the actual number of LCs that served the NW.

[Targaryen_Rubies]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before but someone mentioned in the Mormont's Raven-a re-read thread that the comet was named Mormont's Torch because of how the torch resembled it and perhaps it might prove pertinent to this thread since it's the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch carrying a torch that looks like the comet that supposedly is one of the signs of the rebirth of Azor Ahai. It can also be taken into consideration that this is before the first fight against the others on the fist of the first men and is telling of what is to come/come again.

Here's the quote from A Clash of Kings "The long red tail of Mormont's Torch burned as bright as the moon."

[angry lettuce]

Fantastic theories and explanations in this thread! I have not decided yet if I agree with them, though I liked the connection of the NW vows to the three forging attempts.

However, I was wondering if there could be another meaning tothese attempts so I would like to ask:

if someone accepts the theory that Lightbringer is the NW, would it make sense to consider Cotter Pyke's current situation to be the first forging attempt, in water? That trip was a big step forward for the watch, a big risk (I am not judging if it was right or wrong) and the initiative was taken by the LC of the NW at the time (as opposed to some of the previous moves that had the hand of Stannis in them as well). It also appeared to be failing (at least as far as we know) and there is something fairly ominous about Hardhome in general which might give the whole operation a more "special" meaning.

PS: I might be remembering things wrong, its been a while since I read the books :)

[Chaircat Meow]

Fantastic theories and explanations in this thread! I have not decided yet if I agree with them, though I liked the connection of the NW vows to the three forging attempts.

However, I was wondering if there could be another meaning tothese attempts so I would like to ask:

if someone accepts the theory that Lightbringer is the NW, would it make sense to consider Cotter Pyke's current situation to be the first forging attempt, in water? That trip was a big step forward for the watch, a big risk (I am not judging if it was right or wrong) and the initiative was taken by the LC of the NW at the time (as opposed to some of the previous moves that had the hand of Stannis in them as well). It also appeared to be failing (at least as far as we know) and there is something fairly ominous about Hardhome in general which might give the whole operation a more "special" meaning.

PS: I might be remembering things wrong, its been a while since I read the books :)

Hardhome is connected to heat too (old volcanic activity), so there's the forging. The third mission to HH will see the NW emerge as lightbringer, following two defeats?

[angry lettuce]

I'm not sure I understand your question but if the hardhome mission is the first forging attempt (a failed one according to myth), the lion's heart would follow (and that would also be failed) and then a third by blood of a loved one until they would emerge as lightbringer, right?

[Frey family reunion]

I agree with a part of the OP theory in that lightbringer has a connection to the nightwatch, but I believe it does not refer to the nightwatch as a whole but to one particular member of the organization. I believe that to create lightbringer, it needed to be tempered. First temper it with water, but the sword breaks, then temper it with the heart of a lion, which breaks the sword, and finally tempering it with the heart of the spouse (killing the spouse but finally forging lightbringer).

The prince who was promised in my opionion existed as Rhaegar, than as Dany (I also believe it existed as Aegon V as well equaling the three heads of the dragon). I believe Rhaegar was the one who forged lightbringer. And by forging I think the prophecy is referring to the act of conception.

Whoever has inherited the mantle of the prince who was promised, his act of conception is an attempt to forge the sword, lightbringer. I'm not sure what tempering it with water means, but it may refer to the Dornes (water garden as their gift when they wed the Targareans) or it could refer to the river lords, or the Grey joys.

I think we will find that putting the sword into the heart of the lion refers to conception by the Lannisters. (IMO we may find that Joanna's conception of Tyrion may be a reference to this and Tyrion is the "broken sword", remember Tyrion's fondness for broken things?).

Finally I think we will find that Rhaegar's conception of Jon through Lyanna references tempering the sword through the heart of his spouse. I believe we will find that Rhaegar did in fact marry Lyanna and when he conceived a child with her it fulfilled the prophecy of lightbringer. Jon's birth killed Lyanna. Jon's oath with the nightwatch is another hint. I believe in the next book, Jon will be resurected by Melisandre (much like Beric) which completes the prophecy.

I believe the prince weilding the sword refers to Dany and Jon coming together to fight the Others (maybe through a marriage?).

[MrFadedGlory]

Why must 'the Dragon have three heads"? What was Rheagar looking for? Was there a legendary occurrence that he is trying to re-create? What prophesy is he working from?

The Last Hero...

Azor Ahai...

The Prince Who Was Promised...

3 heads....one dragon...

I think Brandon the Builder - who founded House Stark - was Azor Ahai....and the PwwP....and The Last Hero. They are all regional or cultural names for the same person. I think that during the Long Night, Brandon tried to bring the North together twice to fight the Others, but was unsuccessful. I think the third time he tried he was successful, but only because his wife was taken by the Others and he was prepared to give up his lands and his titles to focus on the defeat of the enemy. It was this third attempt that provided the strength and purpose to defeat the Others. He raised The Wall and the Nights Watch resolved to man it from that point onwards.....I'd also assert that Brandon remained as the Lord Commander....but that The Others weren't completely defeated and in fact, they actually had his Wife...she had become one of The Others....and Brandon's resolve faltered and he went to his wife and became The Night's King and ruled the Watch until The Stark in Winterfell (his brother) and the King Beyond the Wall defeated him and broke the spell Brandon was under, freeing the watch and casting The Night's King to the other side of the wall....Where he eventually became ColdHands.

If the above actually turns to be true, would people be happy with that?!

~Faded

[Arkantos]

The wall will obviously set on fire and kill all the wights whilst flooding the battlefield and washing the Others into the sea, which'll kill them, otherwise they'd just walk through the sea and around the wall wouldn't they?

[donalnig]

Apple Martini: The NW as Lightbringer seems to be a compelling idea when you look at the vow.

But there seem be various detractors to the theory and I'd be interested how you get around them:

1) The NW isn't what it was anymore, it degraded to a rather useless bunch of criminals and low life, just when AA (or the LC) would need it at the utmost strength to fight the supernatural threat of the Others. So you could probably say that if the NW is Lightbringer, it's about time to sharpen that sword. And there are no indications whatsoever that's gonna happen.

2) The NW just killed their second LC in a row. This point is certainly connected to the first one, since they seem to think that they're not bound to obey their LC whenever they think he doesn't act the way they want him too. So how could the LC (AA) wield this weapon when it's shown to be rather unwilling?

3) The NW doesn't seem to care too much about the threat of the Others, they seem more concerned with the Wildlings and with the politics of the Realm (and that they're not party to it whichh is ridiculous when they're drawn into it whether they will it or not). They all but forgot the true meaning of their vow. There's this scene in ADWD where Jon recites the vow and argues against the very narrow interpretation of the NW raison d'etre against Bowen Marsh.

4) The NW don't know how to fight the Others. This really connects again to the third point. They are ignorant and they also don't learn.

So, taken all that into account I think - if the NW is lightbringer, then Westeros is doomed and the Others can already prepare for their victory.

the NW do know how to fight the others you tool!! OBSIDIAN!!!

[Kosh Naranek]

Wow! What a read!

Some things that jumped out at me during my read -

1. Do the Seven really exist? Do they have any power? There is nothing in the text that suggests that the followers of the Seven can be imbued with abilities.

2. Mel, Dark Flame and Thoros all worship the Lord of Light, and seem to have "sight" via the flames. They are capable of "magical" acts, although Mel's POV points to some of those "powers" being reliant on tricks. There is some power at play there. What the driving force is remains unknown.

3. The Old Gods are explained rather well via Bran's POVs. They obviously have power and are a force in the North.

a. New Wierwoods are growing.

b. Is there any significance to NW being called crows? I know that the Wildlings feel it is derisive, but has some greater meaning been lost? Bloodraven reveals to Bran that men used to be able to speak their messages to the ravens, and Cold Hands uses ravens to save Sam and Gilly. Cold Hands used to be of the Watch. Perhaps there is a deeper tie between the founding of the Watch and the Old Gods?

When the Others meet W Royce in GoT, they seem to be sizing him up. They are obviously taking stock of his weapon, but could they potentially be looking at Royce as a person of the NW and assessing whether or not he is a true threat? Their mocking laughter suggests to me that Royce was judged and found wanting in the threat department. (Poor Weapon and perhaps wrong Religion?)

There is no way to know if the Wildlings received a similar review.

The fact that many of the new recruits wanted to swear in front of a wierwood may be telling. It could be indicative of the respect that Jon had earned or something deeper could be happening. Leathers and Jax were both Wildlings, but Satin and some others went as well did they not? Satin had previously professed to be a follower of the Seven.

What of Benjen? Did he leave the cache of obsidian? Is he in the lands of always winter? Does the saying "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" have any bearing on this situation? (King of Winter - Bran the Builder - Night's King - the Long Night)

The building of the Wall, The Last Hero, AA, the founding of the Watch have all been obscured by the mists of time. Joer says that the Watch has forgotten its true purpose. Sam finds the annals of the Watch to be incomplete. Perhaps they are contradictory as well? Chroniclers could have added things to spice up the story.

I don't know that ASOIAF will turn out to the story of one "hero" saving all. I think it will be a case of the people in the situtation choosing to do the right thing.

Even if we leave Jon out of the equation for a minute..

Tormund knows what is coming. He had to slay on of his own children when the boy raised up as a wight.

Edd is off in a tower with spearwives. There is no indication that there is any dissension in his ranks. Perhaps that one out post is truly gearing up for the fight?

Pyp and Grenn may have been sent away, but perhaps they are the shot in the arm that the other garrison needs?

One thing that struck me when reading all of this was - The Watch is derided as failed and broken. I think it is "broken" in the state that it has become. But, I also believe that within the Watch there is still potential. Jon's attack/death/rebirth will be a clarion call for the New Watch. I think this Watch will be comprised of like minded men and women.

It will fail for a time. I do see the Others breaching the Wall. I do not know that the entire structure must fail, but can they punch a hole in it? (Something similar to how Mel by-passed the spells within Storm's End?)

I cannot shake the feeling that the crypts, mysteries, resurgenece of the old ways, etc are all culminating....The entire population of Westeros seems to have lost it way and fallen totally into disarray and self promotion. It is not only the Watch that has decayed. The entire society seems ot be eaten alive by greed, lust and baser inclinations.

Perhaps this will be the tale of them paying the price for their follies and all of them having to pull together or perish? I will stop as I am rambling.