Could Lightbringer be the Night's Watch?

[Dabhrak]

I think we will find that putting the sword into the heart of the lion refers to conception by the Lannisters. (IMO we may find that Joanna's conception of Tyrion may be a reference to this and Tyrion is the "broken sword", remember Tyrion's fondness for broken things?).

Unless Rhaegar is Tyrion's father too (which really doesn't seem likely) it would not fit the prophecy but I actually came up with something else while reading your post (I find it truly brilliant btw), it could actually refer to the fact that Rhaegar did not marry Cersei Lanniser (a lionness, but still) which broke her heart at the time.

I won't elaborate on any of the other ideas that have been discussed here (though I just read the entire thread) because everything's already been said and it would make not us move the discussion forward. Nevertheless, I'd like to congratulate and thank everyone for giving me the opportunity to see everything with a new eye and, I hope, understand the saga a little better.

[imany]

I skipped from the OP to the last page. I just wanted to ask, and forgive me if this question was answered: I hear the line in the NW vow about being the light that brings the dawn was dropped from the HBO series. I haven't seen enough of it to say for myself; so true, false? If it was dropped, doesn't that imply GRRM didn't fight for its significance?

[Dabhrak]

Your point makes sense but they also killed Mogo in the TV series even though Martin warned them he would become important in the future. We can also point to the fact that most of the prophecies weren't mentioned either, and I can't see how THEY wouldn't become significant in the end. I believe they're only doing whatever the hell they want with the story to make it TV-worthy (whatever that means) while keeping its core intact.

[Frey family reunion]

Unless Rhaegar is Tyrion's father too (which really doesn't seem likely) it would not fit the prophecy but I actually came up with something else while reading your post (I find it truly brilliant btw), it could actually refer to the fact that Rhaegar did not marry Cersei Lanniser (a lionness, but still) which broke her heart at the time.

I won't elaborate on any of the other ideas that have been discussed here (though I just read the entire thread) because everything's already been said and it would make not us move the discussion forward. Nevertheless, I'd like to congratulate and thank everyone for giving me the opportunity to see everything with a new eye and, I hope, understand the saga a little better.

I've kind of come around to that as well. My revised theory, is that the initial attempt to find an heir for Rhaegar, was the trip across the narrow sea taken by Steffon Baratheon and his wife. This trip resulted in the sinking of the ship, and the only survivor being patchface. I think this is reference to tempering the sword in water. The broken sword, refers to the ship, the Baratheons and even patchface.

I think you're right that the tempering of the sword into the heart of a lion references the arranged marriage to Elia, which was basically Aerys slapping the Lannisters in the face. The heart of a lion, in this instance refers to their pride. (Pun intended). The broken sword refers to the breaking of the Lannister/Targarean alliance, the sack of King Landing and the literal breaking of Aegon and his sister.

Finally the final part of the lightbringer prophecy/fable may refer to Rhaegar finally marrying his "true love" all the while knowing that any child they have will probably doom her, in accordance with the prophecy. Jon Snow being lightbringer.

[Daenerys is my queen]

One of the biggest guessing games for readers is trying to figure out what "weapon" will end up being Lightbringer. The Azor Ahai prophecy refers to Lightbringer as the "red sword of heroes." And we have no shortage of impressive/seemingly important swords, including Dawn, Longclaw and Oathkeeper.

But what if Lightbringer isn't a literal sword at all?

Depending on whether you believe AA is Jon or Dany, other parts of the prophecy haven't unfolded literally.

The red meteor isn't literally a "bleeding star," Dany wasn't literally "reborn" in Drogo's funeral pyre, Jon's wound wasn't literally smoking, etc.

Many of the prophecies, including Quaithe's and the Ghost of High Heart's, deal heavily with symbolism. The only prophecy I can think of that has unfolded more or less literally is Maggy's prophecy to Cersei. Given this, why should we assume that Lightbringer, if and when it appears, will be an actual sword? We already have one fake Lightbringer that's an actual sword. Might that be a cheeky way of showing that not only is Stannis not AA, but Melisandre (who's been wrong before) is also wrong to claim that it's a physical sword?

I'm starting to think of "sword" as an interchangeable term for a "weapon." A fighting force can be a weapon. A "red sword" need only mean a weapon/force that's seen and survived combat.

Look at the Night's Watch vow:

Here we have an oath that uses a sword as the metaphor for the Night's Watch. Lightbringer is supposed to give off heat; the Night's Watch burns against the cold. It is the "light that brings the dawn." The original defeat of the Others is called the Battle for the Dawn. Could this mean that Lightbringer has been staring us in the face practically the entire time? I think it might.

The Azor Ahai legend and the origin of the Night's Watch are, we're led to believe, roughly contemporary. Azor Ahai's legend has to do with defeating the Others, which is also the Night's Watch's mission. As such, the AA legend and the Night's Watch are inexorably linked. The "wielder of Lightbringer" might simply mean the person who commands the Night's Watch. For all we know, AA might himself have been the founding Lord Commander.

It also occurred to me that AA's sacrifice of Nissa Nissa might somehow tie into the Night's Watch promise to not take wives. We understand that promise to simply be putting duty before familial loyalty, but what if there's more to it? If AA did sacrifice Nissa Nissa to "forge" Lightbringer, and the Night's Watch is itself Lightbringer, then the rule against taking wives literally goes back to the first days of the Watch and has a deep symbolic meaning beyond just utility.

So that's my idea. I've seen other people make the same point, and I've long suspected that the parade of awesome swords is really just a sleight of hand, getting people to look off in Direction A to find Lightbringer when it's been in Direction B all along.

That is a very good theory. I think it's definitely possible. :)

[The Undefeated Gaul]

Perhaps Rhaegar was the Prince that was promised, through getting Lyanna pregnant and essentially killing her he created lightbringer (Jon Snow) Dany (AA) is going to team up with Jon, essentially using him as lightbringer to destroy the others?

[Targaryen_Rubies]

Shouldn't the first failed forge be that of the Night's King? Ultimately the watch failed to do what it's supposed to do and became a seat of power for the Others.

[Cheesus]

Dragonglass is formed from volanic activity, but it's formed in the earth, aka the home turf of the Children. And the one time we've seen it used, it's been steaming yet cold. Incredibly cold. (Wasn't it Jojen Reed who said that "nothing burns like the cold"?) For all of Mel's talk that heat and fire is needed to fight the Others, the one time someone's actually killed an Other, there's been no actual presence of heat. To me, that hints that whatever properties of dragonglass make it effective, it's not just (or even necessarily primarily) due to the power of fire. As you note, dragonglass is also called "frozen fire". Maybe the key there isn't the "fire" part, but the "frozen" part? Obsidian is a substance that represents the power of earth overcoming the power of fire. It's "fire" that has lost all of its nature as fire. The earth "took" fire and transformed it into an object that gives off no heat. Earth and fire came together and in a way, the fire lost out to the earth. Perhaps that's the real "power" of obsidian---it's a creation of the dominance of the power of earth over fire, not the inherent power of fire itself.

I like this. The name of the CotF in their own language translates into the Common Tongue as "Those who sing the song of earth". They're long-lived creatures, associated with forests, wilderness and nature. I'm not sure if it was in the books or on this forum, but I have definitely heard the Others referred to as "Those who sing the song of ice", referring to their association with ice and winter. One would assume they have fairly long lifespans too, since cold preserves. Humans, however, live for very short periods (compared to the Children, at least), they spread fast in the right conditions and destroy anything in their path. They are destructive but don't last long. Those who sing the song of fire?

As the earth transforms fire into obsidian, an object which combines aspects of both (destructive power of fire = useful as a weapon, and endurance of earth = doesn't disappear when you blow on it), perhaps the same goes for the Watch? Maybe the wise and ancient Children of the Forest use their secret knowledge to focus the strength of the wild, energetic and destructive humans, thus transforming them into a powerful and disciplined army?

Since I read in the thread «The secret meaning of "Hodor"» Hodor could mean "hot door" I can't think of any other meaning. ;)

"Hodor" is a mispronunciation of his real name, which is Walder. He's the secret 650th Pokémon. ;)

[Frey family reunion]

Here's another theory re: lightbringer. If the conception of Jon by Rhaegar and Lyanna (AA and NN) is the forging of lightbringer by the "tempering" of the sword through the heart of the spouse, and Rhaegar's marriage with Elia of Dorne is tempering the sword through the heart of a lion, then how about Prince Daeron's marriage with Princess Myriah (and his sister Daenerys marriage to Maron Martell) as the tempering the sword in water. A water garden specifically. The Martell's created the Water Garden to commemorate their union with the Targaryens.

Now what does Daeron's union with Myriah, Rhaegar's union with Elia and Rhaegar's union with Lyanna all have in common? The first children of the unions all were born without Valyrian features. Specifically Baelor "Breakspear", Rhaenys, and Jon Snow. To "temper" Valyrian blood apparently requires Rhoynish, or First Men ancestry. All of the children with Anal blood looked like Targaryens. (look at the children of Aegon II with Arryn and Hightower spouses).

Now what has been wrought by the union of Targaryen princes and Martell princesses? Baelor "Breakspear" is killed by his youngest brother and all of his descendants are killed in a plague. Rhaenys is killed in her bedroom during the sacking of King's Landing.

There is also the ending of two Targaryen dynastic lines to inherit the monarchy (could the broken sword signify a broken Targaryen succession?). Obviously Rhaegar and his descendants with Elia do not inherit the Iron throne despite the line of succession. Obviously Baelor's line does not inherit the Targarean monarchy. Interestingly enough another line of Daeron's descendants is passed over, mainly the line of Rhaegel and his children. This is the first time, I believe that the Targareyan succession line does not go through the family of the elder male line. It is also the first time apparently that the infamous Targaryen madness seems to strike the family to the extent that it leaves a male heir incapable of sitting on the throne.

I think a clue to the parable of lightbringer lies with the Second Sons. Their banner is a broken sword. We know Brown Ben Plumm is the captain and apparently has Targaryen ancestry from two sources. Could one or both of the sources be through a broken Targaryen succession?

[JonnSnow]

NW might fall in the aftermath of Jon's stabbings.

Jon Snow is the lighbringer to Dany's AA means he will lead the fight against the others. Some of the loyal NW's men will take part in that but IMO its going to be Jon's destiny to lead the fight and die hero's death.

[The Night's Prince]

Nope.

[setmyheartafire]

I read the entire thread.

The NW being Lightbringer is very possible to me. For these reasons:

1) Vows. They're definitely parallel to the AA myth/prophecy.

2) They definitely had a huge part in the Battle for the Dawn.

3) They're pretty much the only thing standing between the Others and the rest of Westeros.

4) Lord Commander Snow basically saw himself as "Azor Ahai" in a dream.

And if not, there is at least the issue of the vow so closely resembling the idea of Lightbringer.

I definitely think it is strange that they begin by referencing "night".

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins."

Right. So the very first line should reflect the purpose of the order, right? And it's not something general like the much more ordinary "My watch begins." Instead it's about night.

What was the last generation long time the Others were about? Oh right, the Long Night.

Then, if we reduce the vows to the ones Sam speaks at the gate...

" I am the sword in the darkness."

Blatant.

"I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn"

That is really the end of any doubt that the NW vows relate to Lightbringer.

Does it mean they're one and the same? Well that would be really cool. I would enjoy that interpretation of a hero prophecy. But if not, then what?

Could it be the Last Hero founded the NW and Azor Ahai means literally Last Hero? This happens all the time in real life with parallel myths and translations of historical text. Why not?

Maybe a group of men were particularly touched by the Last Hero's sacrifices and valiant efforts and so when Bran the Builder finished the wall these words were their chosen vows... to recall what was done and what their duty should be.

I'm curious about these parts too:

" I am the watcher on the walls. ,

the horn that wakes the sleepers"

Watcher on the walls: ok, but there is only one wall we know of.

Horn that wakes the sleepers: ok Horn of Winter, Horn of Joramun, what horn? What sleepers? Giants? Dragons? The CotF?

Like the first part, is this reflective of how the NW originally defeated the Others? Is there something that needs to be woken?

Technically I guess this could refer to the horn blasts as warnings to the rest of the Watch (1 for this, 2 for that).

But I think not, because we've heard of at least one horn that had the power to "bring down the wall". But I think that's wrong. In interpretation anyway. I think it has some power to help protect the Wall... and that it had some significance the first time around.

It's said giants helped Bran the Builder build the wall. Could they have lead "stone dragons" to the wall? Could the ice/stone beasts actually be part of what holds the massive structure up? In other word, could they be "sleeping" in the ice?

Because we've seen another horn and that definitely is supposed to control dragons or at least call them.

Could this other horn do the same? Just speculating and considering. I don't want to bring fire dragons into this discussion. I'm speaking of ice dragons. Which coincidentally never fails to make me roll my eyes because I can't help but think of fire when I hear the word 'dragon', but this horn business has me wondering.

Either way, this line like all of them personifies the NW as some heroic instrument of the Last Hero/Azor Ahai. So...

Good read Apple Martini. And tze.

We may not agree on everything but I definitely look forward to seeing this somehow realized in the books...

[Narea]

I don't know...the horn that wakes the sleepers part could simply mean that the NW warns everyone south of the Wall of the danger coming from beyond it, similar to how they send ravens to nearby lords, when they find out that some wildlings managed to cross the Wall.

And concerning the ice dragons... I'd love to see them, if for no other reason then because they are just so different from what one would expect from a dragon. But they would be at a gross disadvantage against a conventional dragon and as only a fire seems to harm a wight, they'd be largely useless against them. I mean didn't that ice dragon in Martin's novel The Ice Dragon melt just by flying too far south? Wouldn't they start melting just by being near a strong fire without even being directly exposed to it? Also, the aspect of ice and winter appears to be "bad" so far so I don't see something like ice dragon even wanting or being willing to help the NW and as such their presence at the Wall probably wouldn't be a good thing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Horn that wakes the sleepers: ok Horn of Winter, Horn of Joramun, what horn? What sleepers? Giants? Dragons? The CotF?

Like the first part, is this reflective of how the NW originally defeated the Others? Is there something that needs to be woken?

Technically I guess this could refer to the horn blasts as warnings to the rest of the Watch (1 for this, 2 for that).

But I think not, because we've heard of at least one horn that had the power to "bring down the wall". But I think that's wrong. In interpretation anyway. I think it has some power to help protect the Wall... and that it had some significance the first time around.

It's said giants helped Bran the Builder build the wall. Could they have lead "stone dragons" to the wall? Could the ice/stone beasts actually be part of what holds the massive structure up? In other word, could they be "sleeping" in the ice?

Because we've seen another horn and that definitely is supposed to control dragons or at least call them.

Could this other horn do the same? Just speculating and considering. I don't want to bring fire dragons into this discussion. I'm speaking of ice dragons. Which coincidentally never fails to make me roll my eyes because I can't help but think of fire when I hear the word 'dragon', but this horn business has me wondering.

The horn thing throws me, too. I think that the horn — the real one of which, Sam has and was with the dragonglass — is a "good" thing, not bad, given that it was with other helpful weapons.

I'm sure it will all make sense when it's said and done. :D

[A Crow Come Over]

Your point makes sense but they also killed Mogo in the TV series even though Martin warned them he would become important in the future. We can also point to the fact that most of the prophecies weren't mentioned either, and I can't see how THEY wouldn't become significant in the end. I believe they're only doing whatever the hell they want with the story to make it TV-worthy (whatever that means) while keeping its core intact.

I think if they showed a faithful adaption of the HotU then it would ruin the series, the visions would be way more vivid on TV than in a book.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Nope.

I just want to reiterate that I think it's hilarious that you think this isn't true because it's too obvious when surely the most obvious solution is, you know, an actual literal sword. If no one, or very few people, thinks of it until reading a diatribe on a forum, it ain't that obvious.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think sometimes people believe the word obvious means something like I read it on a forum. NW=LB is certainly not what I would call obvious, at least not by the definition of the word I'm familiar with.

[redriver]

I doubt the Night's Watch could light one of it's own candles these days.

[Kasporio]

Seems there's no swords so far wich would fit as lightbringer, even valyrian steel can't harm a wraith, and there's no proof it could kill Others.

The theory of the three attempts to forge the sword, considering the battle of the fist of the first men to be the first try, sounds good to me.

The first attempt led to the death of most leaders of the NW, and only the most ruthless and the luckiest, including close friends of Jon, survived the battle. Then the would be conspirators died at the hands of Cold hands.

The 2nd attempt was when LC Snow successfully allow the wildlings behind the wall, the only way he had to strenghten the dwindling ranks of the Watch. So far it would fit the symbolism of an old rusty sword, oblivious of it's true purpose, forged again.

About Jon's death, if a unfaithful drunk like Thoros was able to get back to life a man 6 times, a high ranking priestess like Melisandre, could do it easily. She probably foresaw his death and let Bowen and his crew kill him in order to have a leverage to use against him. the culling of Marsh and his followers would be last successful attempt to reforge the sword.

It wasn't explain if azor ahai myth belong to the essos folklore, since few westerosi people are aware of it. If Melisandre is only led by her religious beliefs, she will see only what she want, as other red priests so far (quaithe and mokoro). And if the AA of the war for the dawn should come back, he wouldn't be a follower of Rhllor since the first men weren't (unless it was their religion back in essos) and it was before the valyrian freehold, so it seems unlikely that lightbringer could be a valyrian artifact.

Concerning Bran whereabouts, what is he supposed to do as a greenseer?

[lady m]

Seems there's no swords so far wich would fit as lightbringer, even valyrian steel can't harm a wraith, and there's no proof it could kill Others.

I don't think we know this. Mormont didn't use Longclaw when he was attacked, and I don't think we know of any other Valyrian steel blades are being used among members of the NW. I do raise a skeptical eye to Valyrian steel blades working since it would seem the substance is attached to Valyria and the magic that they practiced there and that was not founded till long after the Long Night, plus I would think the magic would somehow be attached to tCotF, not pure fire magic.

As to the theory, I think it holds a great deal of merit, and actually makes more sense both when you really look at the vows and when you consider that one of Martin's goals is to invert/subvert certain fantasy norms, and the hero riding in on a dragon with a magical sword to save humanity seems the most overused one of all. That humanity would have to save itself, or figure out how to or renew itself, makes sense to me. And I keep seeing in this thread that humanity is doomed because the Nights Watch is so hollowed out, but isn't that the point? The Others have no strength as long as the Watch is true and strong, and they only appeared again when the Watch is at its most vulnerable. Two major things have hollowed out the Watch, Andels and The Seven - I'll get to the vows in a moment, since I do believe that is important - and the unified Westeros taking the stewardship and responsibility of The Wall out of the hands of the Starks. I think the Andels just introduced non-true Watchmen to the mix, but the true damage was done by the Starks not having direct control over the funding and support that went to the wall. However, with the Andels seems to have come an aversion to all forms of magic, with no differentiation between that of TCotF, which seems to me to be a pure form of magic, and that which is corrupted, requiring a binding agent, usually blood. It's not surprising that the true purpose of The Nights Watch has been forgotten over the course of many millennia. So, is that the purpose became stopping wildling incursions, that's something that really only affects northerners, what motivation did anyone in Kings Landing have to keep the order robust? We've seen how pleas from the LC are ignored in KL, it's a long way away and quite out of mind. The Starks are different, even with a lesser purpose for the Watch, their bannermen are affected directly when wildlings raided, so they have the most reason to care. But with taxes going to a central authority, they have no control over the Watch anymore, and so it's no surprise that it ended up in it's present state.

I also tend to think that The Last Hero, AAR & Lightbringer are the same person/entity, with slight changes due to the unreliable nature of oral history, and cultural adaption. As I think R'hllor is an inherently wrongheaded religion, if powerful in it's sorcery, anyone proclaimed as a savior figure by one of their priests I would look at with a very skeptical eye. We already know that Mel's wrong about Stannis, why then would we think that Benerro is any more right? I actually thought Dany did fit the AA prophecy till the chapter in Volantis where Benerro is proclaiming her the savior of the world, that just told me that her build up as a contestant for being AA is a red herring.

About the vow, in ASoS, ch 69, Jon XI, sorry I don't have the exact page number since my kindle version is a bundle which doesn't have proper numbering after AGoT, but the scene is when Jon is taken before Alliser Thorne & Janos Slynt, with them is Septon Cellador, who specifically accuses Jon of not saying his vows correctly, in a sept:

Septon Cellador cleared his throat. "Lord Slynt," he said, "this boy refused to swear his vows properly, in a sept, but went beyond the Wall to say them before a heart tree. His father's gods, he said, but they are the wildling gods as well."

Jon's defended by Aemon. My main point is that Cellador is not much of a scholar or septon, he's known for being a drunk. What would he know of the 'proper' way to say ones vows? Also, he's trying to infer that all northerners that worship the old gods are not to be trusted, because they're just like wildlings. I would argue that this should be taken the exact opposite. The gods worshiped by the Lords of Winterfell are the ones introduced to them by TCotF and their power is what is found in The Wall, besides just frozen water and whatever other solid matter make up the structure. It also introduces the idea that there is a 'correct' way to say the vows, and given what type of magic is associated with The Wall, I would say that a connection to the old gods through your vows being taken before a weirwood makes a lot of sense. The heart trees have eyes, so does the Black Gate. As we've seen through Bran's POV those eyes see, and are connected, so saying the vows before a heart tree means you're then connected/added into the system of the greenseeers/weirwoods. Which would then give you access to the magic imbued in The Wall.

Finally, about the magic, there is much speculation that what Bran ate contained Jojen's blood, but what if it didn't? Godswood weirwoods have faces carved in them, they are also called heart trees. A heart pumps blood, which is the same color as the features on the face of the heart trees and the sap of weirwoods. Sap is the life product of a tree, it's blood, so to speak, weirwood sap is red, would that not be the blood of a weirwood tree? If that is so, and this is just theory, obviously, but mightn't others jealous of TCotF and their natural abilities with magic use what they see as their binding agent, weirwood blood, in a form they can find? They have no connection to weirwoods, and the substance used by TCotF has no magical quality for them. Thus, they have to use the blood of animals and humans. The Others kill victims, once dead, having given them their blood, they can then use them for their purpose. We see Mel do the same sort of thing with fire magic. Thus making both fire & ice magics a corruption of pure magic that have to use true blood as their binding agent, as opposed to weirwood sap.