Is indeed Sansa's infatuation with the Hound mutual?

[LongRider]

Also two knights walk by, and look what he does:

As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet.

Sandor is undercover at the Quiet Isle. I think there's more going on at the Quiet Isle than meets the eye.

Hah! Le Cygne, I didn't catch that small subtlety!

I agree, there is more going on at the QI, it's has some mystery to it.

[Booknerd2]

Stranger and Sandor go together, he's telling us he's not going to become a brother. Look at where Stranger is, he's apart from the others:

Also two knights walk by, and look what he does:

Sandor is undercover at the Quiet Isle. I think there's more going on at the Quiet Isle than meets the eye. And I would imagine Sandor is the one looking after Stranger, exercising him, grooming him, etc. now that he's well enough.

Love this! I go back to the QI passages from time to time because stuff doesn't sit right with me, to say the least. I have never caught the points you made before.

-Stranger pissed because knights walk by him, in a way mirroring his owner's opinion.

-Not getting gelded because they are getting of the island, and they can't break him, and symbolically can't brake both of them, or cut their nuts off.

-Stranger off and way in a stable from the other horses. Resisting any assimilation.

-I love the dirt hitting the boots point. I never caught that and I love it! It is like every overdramatic costume drama or Western, where somebody spits on someone's boots or uses them as a makeshift spittoon (insult), essentially saying. "I ain't havin' this."

[Annara Snow]

I think you've got a bit hung up on what you think Infatuation means. Words can be used in different contexts. Being infatuated doesn't have to be something you only feel for a stranger/new aquantance. You can become infatuated with a guy who you have known for years. it is the stage of thinking about them all the time, of your thoughts turning to them every time sexuality comes . So when she thinks of Sandor each and every time romantic or sexual feelings/relationships/situations come up. that is infatuation.

You can become infatuated with someone at any stage. You might know a person for 20 years and then find that your feelings have turned to love and then that you think about him all the time and day dream about him look forward to seeing him. that is infatuation even if the feelings of love have come from years and years of shared friendship and mutual life interests. When falling in love infatuation is a stage we go through.

I think Sansa is showing that stage as she thinks about sandor every time love/sex/kisses etc comes up. She kept his cloak, she dreams of him, she wishes he were here.

Yes, and that's called being in love.

Infatuation and crush are the same thing, crush is just an informal word for it. It's not what I think it means, it's what it means according to the dictionary definitions, some of which I've posted. An intense but shallow and temporary feeling that doesn't involve deeper emotional bonds, and that some of the dictionaries even call "extravagant" or "foolish".

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

sorry but I really don't agree.

[The Sleeper]

As far as I can tell, the difference between infatuation and falling in love is only in hindsight. I used the term as somewhat more neutral and because I get the feeling that she has more fallen with the idea of the Hound, rather than the man himself. And because, she's like thirteen.

I also, still don't see anything about Sandor's behavior that can be construed as unequivocally romantic or sexual in nature. As the object of his obsession, her innocence.

[DogLover]

As far as I can tell, the difference between infatuation and falling in love is only in hindsight. I used the term as somewhat more neutral and because I get the feeling that she has more fallen with the idea of the Hound, rather than the man himself. And because, she's like thirteen.

I also, still don't see anything about Sandor's behavior that can be construed as unequivocally romantic or sexual in nature. As the object of his obsession, her innocence.

As Brashcandy already stated upthread, Sandor is not obsessed with her innocence. If he were, he wouldn't spend so much time trying to dispel her of it. Rather, he would try to preserve it. But instead, he constantly challenges her idealism and innocence because it's dangerous. He wants her to see the world for what it really is so she can protect herself. What draws her to him is her compassion. She actually treats him like a real human being and he's the only one in KL she drops her courtesy armor for (actually, Dontos too).

[The Sleeper]

As Brashcandy already stated upthread, Sandor is not obsessed with her innocence. If he were, he wouldn't spend so much time trying to dispel her of it. Rather, he would try to preserve it. But instead, he constantly challenges her idealism and innocence because it's dangerous. He wants her to see the world for what it really is so she can protect herself. What draws her to him is her compassion. She actually treats him like a real human being and he's the only one in KL she drops her courtesy armor for (actually, Dontos too).

Innocence was something Sandor was deprived and disabused of far too young. It would make sense for him to be drawn to it, to be envious to it and to want to both destroy and protect it. He did saw himself in her and yes, shattering her delusions is a form of protection. Better to shed the comfort they offer than have them aggravate the pain of the blows they cannot protect from.

[Karmarni]

I do not think protecting Sansa is the sole focus of their interactions, whether that is dispelling her world view or physically providing her safety. He does these things, of course, but it is what’s happening around them that seems the focus. And that is due to the way their interactions are written.

To begin with, I doubt that Sandor Clegane sits around and thinks, “Must teach Sansa the way things are in this world. She’s so innocent and that’s like I was when the rug was pulled out from under me. Therefore, I’ll pull it out from under her so she can learn to protect herself. Then I can go back to my nice peaceful life hanging out with Joff, watching him be a little shit and taking care of the Lannister’s business. So I’ll watch out for her when she needs me and otherwise try to take those songs and stories right out of her head.”

That does not ring true for me. It seems to be missing some elements. Part of the element is the songs and stories. Sandor is a storyteller himself. Sandor tells his stories to Sansa, the songs and stories girl. And he asks for the song too. He’s also drunk and he lets out more than he should have.

“Think I’m so drunk that I’d believe that?” He let go his grip on her arm, swaying slightly as he stood, stripes of light and darkness falling across his terrible burnt face. “You look almost a woman... face, teats, and you’re taller too, almost... ah, you’re still a stupid little bird, aren’t you? Singing all the songs they taught you... sing me a song, why don’t you? Go on. Sing to me. Some song about knights and fair maids. You like knights, don’t you?”

“I’m Tanselle,” she laughed. “Tanselle Too-Tall, the boys used to call me.”

“You’re not too tall,” Dunk blurted out. “You’re just right for. . .“ He realized what he had been about to say, and blushed furiously.

The Hound’s about to say “almost tall enough for me”, just as Dunk is about to say “You’re just right for me.”

So, yes, the attraction is mutual.

[Houndbird]

The Hound’s about to say “almost tall enough for me”, just as Dunk is about to say “You’re just right for me.”

So, yes, the attraction is mutual.

[Annara Snow]

I do not think protecting Sansa is the sole focus of their interactions, whether that is dispelling her world view or physically providing her safety. He does these things, of course, but it is what’s happening around them that seems the focus. And that is due to the way their interactions are written.

To begin with, I doubt that Sandor Clegane sits around and thinks, “Must teach Sansa the way things are in this world. She’s so innocent and that’s like I was when the rug was pulled out from under me. Therefore, I’ll pull it out from under her so she can learn to protect herself. Then I can go back to my nice peaceful life hanging out with Joff, watching him be a little shit and taking care of the Lannister’s business. So I’ll watch out for her when she needs me and otherwise try to take those songs and stories right out of her head.”

That does not ring true for me. It seems to be missing some elements. Part of the element is the songs and stories. Sandor is a storyteller himself. Sandor tells his stories to Sansa, the songs and stories girl. And he asks for the song too. He’s also drunk and he lets out more than he should have.

The Hound’s about to say “almost tall enough for me”, just as Dunk is about to say “You’re just right for me.”

I never noticed that. Great catch!

On another note, can we use that now, together with other textual evidence (such as 13-year old Sansa being much taller than Lysa was at 21), to put a stop to those "Sophie Turner is too tall for a small delicate frail flower that Sansa is supposed to be" (even though none of her book descriptions suggest that) arguments?

[Le Cygne]

The cloak stuff:

Checking him out:

In the back of the royal box, Sandor Clegane stood at guard, his hands resting on his swordbelt. The white cloak of the Kingsguard was draped over his broad shoulders and fastened with a jeweled brooch, the snowy cloth looking somehow unnatural against his brown roughspun tunic and studded leather jerkin. "Lady Sansa," the Hound announced curtly when he saw her.

The cloak she wants:

Sandor Clegane unfastened his cloak and tossed it at her. Sansa clutched it against her chest, fists bunched hard in the white wool. The coarse weave was scratchy against her skin, but no velvet had ever felt so fine.

The blood seeped through a tear, that's loaded with symbolism. And it's his left sleeve, the left side is "where the heart is," he wears his heart on his sleeve, he calls her "the little bird" in front of everyone:

Clegane lifted her to the ground. His white cloak was torn and stained, and blood seeped through a jagged tear in his left sleeve. "The little bird's bleeding. Someone take her back to her cage and see to that cut."

Now he brings the cloak up, because he's in on it, too, he's there to rescue her:

"Not to me. I have the white cloak. And I have this." He patted the pommel of his sword. "The man who tries to stop me is a dead man. Unless he's on fire." He laughed bitterly.

And that last night with all the marriage symbolism, she wears his cloak (bloody, red on white) until morning:

She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

She's lying awake in bed at night thinking of going with him, and has placed his cloak in a hope chest, with her summer silks (when the long winter has passed, a time for wolves):

Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it.

She even thinks of him when she is forced to kiss Tyrion in the ceremony for the marriage she doesn't want:

She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp.

And again, he's in on the cloak stuff, because they are two of a kind:

He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her."

And again, and she later associates him explicitly with the marriage bed:

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Sigh. There's a difference between affection and infatuation. The Hound wasn't horrible to her during a time when almost everyone she encounter was antagonistic towards her. I wouldn't call it infatuation as much as... stockholm syndrome.

The fact that out of everyone she encountered the person that was *nicest* to her was the Hound signifies how terrible her life is in KL. When things were going well in her life, the hound was the most terrifying person she'd ever encountered. After her father's death, she found affection for him. Not because she wanted him but because she realized how much worse everyone else was.

[LongRider]

When things were going well in her life, the hound was the most terrifying person she'd ever encountered. After her father's death, she found affection for him. Not because she wanted him but because she realized how much worse everyone else was.

I disagree as Sansa was more frightened of Ser IIyn Payne than the Hound.

[Booknerd2]

She she is not really aware that she found affection for him, and things are only coming to the surface after he leaves KL.

It is subconscious for her, but it is revealed to the reader.

[ladyinblack]

I have always believed that "romantic" and/or "sexual" are vast oversimplification (if not just plain off the mark) when looking at the feelings each has for the other.

From Sansa's POV, she is helpless and alone. Her mother is far away then killed, her father killed in front of her, the older brother she might otherwise look to for protection far away (and also eventually dead).

She has enemies all around her who hurt her for fun, both physically and emotionally. Life itself has turned into one long (@ two year?) waking nightmare. If she were a present day teen, she'd probably have turned emo and cutter at minimum; if not simply thrown herself off a wall. She actually contemplates suicide and comes close to doing it at least once.

If you've ever been at a quasi- or truly-suicidal low point, then you know that romantic feelings are pretty much the last thing going on. You just don't see something as beautiful or possible or futuristic or hopeful as romance or love when you believe you have no future. Even her periodic "feelings" about Loras are automatic responses to his physical beauty, not romantic. She's still too young to distinguish distant crush from actual love.

One moment that was very telling to me was when she was hearing about Elinor's relationship with Alyn Ambrose. She thinks how she pities all of them because they are "children," but in truth Elinor has a much better concept of romantic love than Sansa. So far Sansa has "loved" Joff just because he seemed to be the prince she wanted him to be (willfully ignoring all signs of who and what he truly was), and then Loras with whom she has exchanged maybe four sentences.

I believe Sansa's feelings toward Sandor are far more her natural empathy and gratitude for his protection, than anything romantic or sexual. He is really the only friend she has throughout her time in KL (weirdly intimidating as his version of friendship is), who asks nothing and wants nothing from her but simply gives her his protection unasked and unexpected.

I think her memory of the Unkiss has more to do with her sympathies for him and her continued fascination with love stories (mismatched lovers, unrequited feelings, the discarded but valiant knight, pick a chivalric trope) than personal romance. He was hurting and she felt sorry for him and so her mind remembers her doing something to make him feel better which is in line with her stories. It's not for her, it's for him.

When she thinks of the Unkiss - and there's no evidence that she really broods over it, she's still got way too many far more pressing worries - she is certainly not fantasizing about what could have happened as a result of it (she really doesn't know), nor is she wishing for another, or daydreaming about Sandor returning to carry her off to some castle where they can live happily ever after. And I think she keeps his cloak as a reminder of her only friend and protector - and she misses him, much the way she misses her family.

Now, IF we see her reunite with him after she's TRULY flowered (ie, had the actual sexual awakening that usually comes to girls several years after their biological flowering), and she's not a prisoner in terror every second of every day, then we might see a whole different set of feelings develop.

I just think it's... naive in a way to believe that there was any room in Sansa's world for actual romantic feelings at the time. In her tedium she can think about romance in a distant, academic way, but have true romantic feelings? No. Trying to stay alive sort of cancels out your dating possibilities (or interest).

As far as Sandor's feelings for Sansa, I believe they can easily be summed up in one word: sister. We still don't know what happened to his real sister, but there's two good bets: she was very like Sansa, and what happened to her was Gregor. I think Sandor's amazingly fast and automatic protectiveness is the direct result of his self-torment that he was not able to save his own sister from her fate.

Almost from the first moment he sets eyes on Sansa (and seriously, she was a complete child then, however womanly she may have been growing by their last meeting) he mentally names himself her secret guardian. Those are not romantic or sexual feelings. They are "this goes against the entire persona I've busted my ass to acquire but I will still be damned if I let anything happen to this one" feelings.

He frankly seems kind of embarrassed by the instinct and I believe that's why he's as nasty about it as he can be, but there is never even a tiny hint of impropriety in his behavior towards her. Not one. He never makes the snide remarks you would expect (and that others ARE making) about how beautiful she's becoming or how she is "blossoming" nor does he even seem to consider taking advantage of any of the many times he has her in potentially compromising positions.

Even when he gets his song from her, there is *nothing* sexual in his actions or even in his offer to take her with him. He wants to see her one last time, and offer to take her out to safety. Not a hint of a word or gesture romantic or sexual, even when he could easily have gotten away with either.

As far as his tears over her marriage - how would you feel if you found out your little sister had been married off to a malformed evil little whoremaster (looking at it from Sandor's POV), most likely raped at least on her wedding night and likely repeatedly after that, and - as far as he knows - stuck with that life forever? I'd be in tears. It certainly takes Robb and Cat as a horrific tragedy, akin almost to her death (frankly they might have preferred her death to her marriage to Tyrion). WE know he never touched her and was as kind to her as he could be. THEY don't know that and assume she is being treated in accordance with his reputation. And as far as Sandor is concerned, he has failed yet again, perhaps at the one last idea he was living for. He didn't get to kill Gregor to avenge all his wrongs. Whatever he may have ever felt towards Joff, that purpose is gone. And now Sansa is lost as well to a horrible fate. Worth a few tears - but not over the lost romance he was imagining between them, and certainly not over something as base as wanting to do her. The world's full of women he can have physically. There are very, very few Sansas.

Bravo!!! Truly the most balanced well written account of this relationship

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I disagree as Sansa was more frightened of Ser IIyn Payne than the Hound.

Considering she never interacted with Ilyn Payne and that he took her father's head... I doubt she thought better of him as time went on.

[Annara Snow]

Sigh. There's a difference between affection and infatuation. The Hound wasn't horrible to her during a time when almost everyone she encounter was antagonistic towards her. I wouldn't call it infatuation as much as... stockholm syndrome.

The fact that out of everyone she encountered the person that was *nicest* to her was the Hound signifies how terrible her life is in KL. When things were going well in her life, the hound was the most terrifying person she'd ever encountered. After her father's death, she found affection for him. Not because she wanted him but because she realized how much worse everyone else was.

No, that's not what happened. When things were going well in her life, before her father's death, she was terrified of the Hound for a brief time, because of his face, but as terrified as she was of Ilyn Payne; but that changed and she started developing some affection for him the night he told her the story of how he got his burns. That's when she goes from being afraid of him to being afraid for him (the words from the book) and comforts him, touching his shoulder and saying that Gregor was "no true knight". Then the next day during the Tournament, she was rooting for the Hound against Jaime Lannister ("all moist-eyed and eager", gasping when he seemed to be losing, as observed by Ned in his POV chapter we see that scene in) and asked "Is the Hound champion now?" when he defended Loras from Gregor, before Loras announced that he was. That's much before Ned's death and before Sandor did anything for her. It all started by her feeling compassion for him and moving him mentally from the "monster" role to, apparently, a sort of a victim/tragic hero role (rooting for him at the tournament against her betrothed's uncle/golden knight of the KG, among other things) with his brother as the monster.

And she didn't think that everyone else was worse. She trusted Dontos far more than she trusted the Hound at the time, she thought Tommen and Myrcella were nice children, she thought Tyrion wasn't bad although she couldn't entirely trust him since he was one of the Lannisters (she prays for Dontos, Tyrion and the Hound, among others, during the BW battle). Later she trusted and liked Margaery, as well as the other Tyrells and thought that they were good people. The people she saw as her main friends in KL while she was there were Dontos and the Tyrells - that only changed for obvious reasons after she found out about the entire Joffrey PW plot.The only people she really thought were awful were Joffrey, Cersei and the KGs who beat her, with the possible exception of Arys Oakheart.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

No, that's not what happened. When things were going well in her life, before her father's death, she was terrified of the Hound for a brief time, because of his face, but as terrified as she was of Ilyn Payne; but that changed and she started developing some affection for him the night he told her the story of how he got his burns. That's when she goes from being afraid of him to being afraid for him (the words from the book) and comforts him, touching his shoulder and saying that Gregor was "no true knight". Then the next day during the Tournament, she was rooting for the Hound against Jaime Lannister ("all moist-eyed and eager", gasping when he seemed to be losing, as observed by Ned in his POV chapter we see that scene in) and asked "Is the Hound champion now?" when he defended Loras from Gregor, before Loras announced that he was. That's much before Ned's death and before Sandor did anything for her. It all started by her feeling compassion for him and moving him mentally from the "monster" role to, apparently, a sort of a victim/tragic hero role (rooting for him at the tournament against her betrothed's uncle/golden knight of the KG, among other things) with his brother as the monster.

And she didn't think that everyone else was worse. She trusted Dontos far more than she trusted the Hound at the time, she thought Tommen and Myrcella were nice children, she thought Tyrion wasn't bad although she couldn't entirely trust him since he was one of the Lannisters (she prays for Dontos, Tyrion and the Hound, among others, during the BW battle). Later she trusted and liked Margaery, as well as the other Tyrells and thought that they were good people. The people she saw as her main friends in KL while she was there were Dontos and the Tyrells - that only changed for obvious reasons after she found out about the entire Joffrey PW plot.The only people she really thought were awful were Joffrey, Cersei and the KGs who beat her, with the possible exception of Arys Oakheart.

Ok.. let's amend my previous statement. Nice to her without wanting something from her. Honest with her without ulterior motives. She didn't have much time to befriend other people because she wasn't really around other people. Yes, she trusted and pitied Dontos... but I really don't understand where you're going with that. But you know.. if you want to meta that Sansa loves the Hound. That's cool. I suppose it doesn't matter either way.

[Chebyshov]

No, that's not what happened. When things were going well in her life, before her father's death, she was terrified of the Hound for a brief time, because of his face, but as terrified as she was of Ilyn Payne; but that changed and she started developing some affection for him the night he told her the story of how he got his burns. That's when she goes from being afraid of him to being afraid for him (the words from the book) and comforts him, touching his shoulder and saying that Gregor was "no true knight". Then the next day during the Tournament, she was rooting for the Hound against Jaime Lannister ("all moist-eyed and eager", gasping when he seemed to be losing, as observed by Ned in his POV chapter we see that scene in) and asked "Is the Hound champion now?" when he defended Loras from Gregor, before Loras announced that he was. That's much before Ned's death and before Sandor did anything for her. It all started by her feeling compassion for him and moving him mentally from the "monster" role to, apparently, a sort of a victim/tragic hero role (rooting for him at the tournament against her betrothed's uncle/golden knight of the KG, among other things) with his brother as the monster.

I'm just now starting a reread, and got to the tourney scene yesterday. Sansa gasping when the Hound was almost unseated really jumped out at me, because in her chapter set during the previous day, she specifically thought about how great she was at keeping her composure, unlike Jeyne who was screaming throughout it. Her gasping means she must have been really sucked into it/concerned for him.

Jeyne covered her eyes whenever a man fell, like a frightened little girl, but Sansa was made of sterner stuff. A great lady knew how to behave at tourna ments. Even Septa Mordane noted her composure and nodded in approval.

As a side note, the Unkiss scene really reminds me of Phantom of the Opera (pitiful creature of darkness) to the point where in my mind, the "Gentle Mother" song she sings has the same melody as what Christine sings before she kisses Erik. I know Sansan is likened to Beauty and the Beast, so just figured I'd toss another musical into the mix.

[Hounds little bird]

He did not go to her room to rape her. He went there to offer her a way out of King's Landing. He promises to protect her and keep her safe. Not exactly the actions of a rapist. Also, the ASoIaF app confirms he did indeed go to her room to try and summon the courage to ask her to leave with him.