Whats up with the Jorah dislike?

[Le Cygne]

Agreed. There are reasons why men like Jorah Mormont and Petyr Baelish wind up in positions of influence and power. We need to understand these reasons when we analyze the actions taken by the men. Sometimes this can lead us to a limited sympathy for them. That's not the same as saying, "Well, you really can't blame these guys, because…" The answer to that is usually, "Yes we can. We have solid reasons for blaming them."

True, and then there's the writing, is he presenting the character in a sympathetic way. Another quote (I like his interviews!):

“It is certainly a genuine, legitimate topic as the core of fantasy, but I think the battle between Good and Evil is waged within the individual human hearts,” says Martin. “We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, that’s the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as I’ve said before. We all have good and evil in us and there are very few pure paragons and there are very few orcs. A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think there’s a great deal of truth to that, and that’s the interesting thing. In the case of war, that kind of situation, so I think some of that is definitely what I’m aiming at.”

http://www.assignmentx.com/2011/interview-game-of-thrones-creator-george-r-r-martin-on-the-future-of-the-franchise-part-2/

[Greywind84]

I dont understand how Jorah gets heat for being attracted to a 14 while Drogo gets a pass for marrying and impregnating one?

[TheMysteriousOne]

I dont understand how Jorah gets heat for being attracted to a 14 while Drogo gets a pass for marrying and impregnating one?

He does?

[Greywind84]

He does?

Maybe not a pass but he gets nowhere near the level of abuse that Jorah has

[MasterJack]

He does?

Rhaegar (the married guy with 2 kids) does. But that is for another debate a I guess.

Personally I dont mind, different world different rules, for them a 14yo girl is a woman, i Just imagine them 5-6year older and I dont ends up puking everywhere.

[Le Cygne]

The problem is she doesn't want him, so he needs to get a life. She gets to choose who she wants, whoever that may be. He has to deal.

[Mad Monkey]

Maybe not a pass but he gets nowhere near the level of abuse that Jorah has

Drogo died like 3/4ths of the way book 1, and he never even pretends to be a decent guy. Jorah is around for about 5x as much pagetime and is a relatively prominent character. You can't compare the two -- it's like comparing Cersei's 'level of abuse' to (I dunno) Weese's, or Tywin to Zollo or Timeon. It's not that Jorah is 'worse' than Drogo, it's that Jorah is a more visible and complex character.

[Martini Sigil]

The problem is she doesn't want him, so he needs to get a life. She gets to choose who she wants, whoever that may be. He has to deal.

This.... Not to mention that he's old enough to be her Dad. I realize that isn't uncommon in Westeros/Essos ... but its still creepy.

I like Jorah, I really do. I like the moral ambiguity and a good redemption story... He's a badass, he's smart, and he has balls.... but jesus on stilts he is a shmuck with women.

[Le Cygne]

This.... Not to mention that he's old enough to be her Dad. I realize that isn't uncommon in Westeros/Essos ... but its still creepy.

I like Jorah, I really do. I like the moral ambiguity and a good redemption story... He's a badass, he's smart, and he has balls.... but jesus on stilts he is a shmuck with women.

Agree, I don't mind him either. I probably should. I really don't mind most of them. I just think a woman should get to choose. Even if she has to run away to do it. Or invent a secret kiss. Or whatever floats her boat.

[Florina Laufeyson]

What's up with the Jorah like?

Right?

The problem is she doesn't want him, so he needs to get a life. She gets to choose who she wants, whoever that may be. He has to deal.

This. Ser Fedora just needs to move on! If he wants to fight for Dany, cool beans, but continuing to try to get into her tokar is just not nice.

[danm_999]

I dont understand how Jorah gets heat for being attracted to a 14 while Drogo gets a pass for marrying and impregnating one?

Because Drogo has been dead for over four books and Jorah is still around?

[SeanF]

Maybe Daario will contract sudden, fatal, case of sword-through-bowels, when Jorah next meets him.

[Nictarion]

Maybe Daario will contract sudden, fatal, case of sword-through-bowels, when Jorah next meets him.

That would certainly not be the best way to get Dany to forgive him. Unless its because Daario betrays her.

[Cruella]

I don't think Martin writes Jorah's infatuation with Dany in a way that is supposed to make us want them together. He didn't have to make Dany look like Lynesse, which adds sad/creepy element to this infatuation (it's not terrible, but not endearing, either). And if a writer wants people to be all "Oh, his love for this woman is so pure and admirable" he doesn't make his hero go to brothel and pick up a whore who looks like his love so that he can fuck her and pretend she's it. It's not some terrible crime, but again, it's creepy and pathetic. It can make one feel sorry for Jorah in "poor pathetic dude" way, but generally, wouldn't make one want to see him together with his love interest whom he fetishizes in this way.

Dany also has far higher, loftier inspirations than Jorah. He's willing to give up his honor and human decency to get into woman's pants, be it Dany or his ex. Dany, even when in love, still has interests and goals like ending slavery.

I think if she gets some "ultimate" love interest, it will be someone like that. Not Daario, who represents her "fire" side, but not Jorah, either. He just doesn't measure up.

[SeanF]

I don't think Martin writes Jorah's infatuation with Dany in a way that is supposed to make us want them together. He didn't have to make Dany look like Lynesse, which adds sad/creepy element to this infatuation (it's not terrible, but not endearing, either). And if a writer wants people to be all "Oh, his love for this woman is so pure and admirable" he doesn't make his hero go to brothel and pick up a whore who looks like his love so that he can fuck her and pretend she's it. It's not some terrible crime, but again, it's creepy and pathetic. It can make one feel sorry for Jorah in "poor pathetic dude" way, but generally, wouldn't make one want to see him together with his love interest whom he fetishizes in this way.

Dany also has far higher, loftier inspirations than Jorah. He's willing to give up his honor and human decency to get into woman's pants, be it Dany or his ex. Dany, even when in love, still has interests and goals like ending slavery.

I think if she gets some "ultimate" love interest, it will be someone like that. Not Daario, who represents her "fire" side, but not Jorah, either. He just doesn't measure up.

Her ultimate love interest will be Victarion.

[Tyrion1991]

That would certainly not be the best way to get Dany to forgive him. Unless its because Daario betrays her.

Well we already had one sellsword company turncloak, him going in as a "hostage" would be a pretty good way to do that.

I think we all know that even if Daario did betray Dany that events would transpire that Dany doesn't learn of/doesn't want to believe this and ends up executing Jorah anyway. The only reason that wouldn't happen is if some of Tyrions plot armor rubs off on him. How is Tyrion going to meet with Dany without some foot in the door and any bad association because Jorah kills Daario would not help that?

@Cruella

We have not met Lynesse. For all you know she could be 6ft tall and nothing like Dany. Jorah saying "she looked like you" is probably metaphorical and a round about way of complimenting Danys appearance because of how glowingly he described Lynesse.

I think you're underselling the character slightly.

* He kills one of Khal Drogos bloodriders. These are some of THE best warriors in Essos. How else can you be a bodyguard to Khal Drogo?

* He fought at Pyke and the Trident. Robert was clearly impressed by him. Generally Robert is good in his estimation of smashing things.

* He wins the Battle of Yunkai using Danys plan but Dany is really impressed by this when he returns to her.

* He then goes on to be part of the team which takes Meereen and kills a white crocodile in the sewers.

* In Tyrions final chapter he admits that Jorah fought hardest and longest to keep his dignity whilst Tyrion eventually started pandering to others. That suggests he is a very strong willed and stubborn character.

* He takes a wound which cuts to the bone and yet survives the treck across the Red Waste whilst starving and without water.

* In general, considering his background as a minor lord in some backwater, he is really intelligent, knowledgeable and insightful. Dany does say later on that he gave good advice.There aren't that many other characters who are smart and good fighters but Jorah is one of them.

These aren't really common traits to find in somebody.

IMO GRRM is just using those things to offset the fact that Jorah is admirable in the lengths he goes to for Daenerys and because of his love for her. You have a guy who is willing to go half way across the world to help a woman whom half the world wants dead and seems certain to lose. Now the Widow in Volantis laughs because that DOES sound ridiculous and like something out of a story. "Mens motives are always darker" she says. This is because Jorah doesn't mention that he wants to have sex with Dany and focuses instead on his oath to her. But I think Tyrion has the right of it in his assessment that Jorah is "a fool in love". So obviously GRRM needs to have some grayness to offset this to offset readers going "you would have me believe that you are a true knight of Westeros who only wants to rescue your fair maiden?!".

[Parwan]

...

@Cruella

1. We have not met Lynesse. For all you know she could be 6ft tall and nothing like Dany. Jorah saying "she looked like you" is probably metaphorical and a round about way of complimenting Danys appearance because of how glowingly he described Lynesse.

2. I think you're underselling the character slightly.

...

3. * In general, considering his background as a minor lord in some backwater, he is really intelligent, knowledgeable and insightful. Dany does say later on that he gave good advice.There aren't that many other characters who are smart and good fighters but Jorah is one of them.

These aren't really common traits to find in somebody.

IMO GRRM is just using those things to offset the fact that Jorah is admirable in the lengths he goes to for Daenerys and because of his love for her. You have a guy who is willing to go half way across the world to help a woman whom half the world wants dead and seems certain to lose. Now the Widow in Volantis laughs because that DOES sound ridiculous and like something out of a story. "Mens motives are always darker" she says. This is because Jorah doesn't mention that he wants to have sex with Dany and focuses instead on his oath to her. But I think Tyrion has the right of it in his assessment that Jorah is "a fool in love". So obviously GRRM needs to have some grayness to offset this to offset readers going "you would have me believe that you are a true knight of Westeros who only wants to rescue your fair maiden?!".

1. I find this highly implausible. After Jorah's tale of woe and dishonor, Dany asks him what Lynesse looked like. The knight smiles sadly and says, "Why, she looked a bit like you, Daenerys." This is meant to be a round about compliment to the young queen? Quite unlikely. The man has just admitted that he hates his former wife as much as he loves her. And if this is his idea of how to deliver a compliment, then it just goes to show a main point here--the dude has real problems with women. If I compliment a young lady, I certainly don't want her to shiver about the matter.

2. Perhaps, but only slightly. Most of the things you mention have to do with physical strength and bravery. I don't think anyone denies that Ser Jorah has these characteristics.

3. Jorah has some intelligence. It seems likely enough that he could have turned out to be a successful minor lord, managing his lands properly, dealing well with vassals and peasants, etc. His love life, however, is worse than most disasters. It causes disasters in just about all the other aspects of his life.

I don't think Martin writes Jorah's infatuation with Dany in a way that is supposed to make us want them together. He didn't have to make Dany look like Lynesse, which adds sad/creepy element to this infatuation (it's not terrible, but not endearing, either). And if a writer wants people to be all "Oh, his love for this woman is so pure and admirable" he doesn't make his hero go to brothel and pick up a whore who looks like his love so that he can fuck her and pretend she's it. It's not some terrible crime, but again, it's creepy and pathetic. It can make one feel sorry for Jorah in "poor pathetic dude" way, but generally, wouldn't make one want to see him together with his love interest whom he fetishizes in this way.

Dany also has far higher, loftier inspirations than Jorah. He's willing to give up his honor and human decency to get into woman's pants, be it Dany or his ex. Dany, even when in love, still has interests and goals like ending slavery.

I think if she gets some "ultimate" love interest, it will be someone like that. Not Daario, who represents her "fire" side, but not Jorah, either. He just doesn't measure up.

This is an interesting post. It says worthwhile things about Dany and Jorah. It also brings up matters concerning our view of things vs. the view of things characters have in Martin's world.

If I were one of Jorah's friends, and we both lived in the modern world, I'd advise counseling. I might talk to a circle of common friends first: "The guy isn't just love-struck. He needs professional help. How do we convince him to seek it?"

I don't think that anyone in the universe of ASoIaF would use our term "creepy." At least, I doubt they would use it in the way it is used in threads like this one. One of Jorah's friends would most likely have an attitude similar to Dany's: "Ser, what you're doing is both hopeless and improper. Let's say you had an older sister, even a beautiful one. Would she have had any chance at all of wedding a Targaryen king? Of course not. Furthermore, you were a member of a queensguard. You know what that would have meant in the normal course of things, right? You would have eventually taken a vow of celibacy. All in all, you need to get ahold of yourself. There's an upside to your dismissal from the queen's service. Maybe you can find a good-looking dark-haired prostitute who does something for you."

[-Ghost-]

* He kills one of Khal Drogos bloodriders. These are some of THE best warriors in Essos. How else can you be a bodyguard to Khal Drogo?

Jorah got lucky. He was getting his ass handed to him and more than likely was going to die if Qotho's arakh didn't get stuck in bone. Plus Jorah was fighting with armor on.

[Tyrion1991]

Jorah got lucky. He was getting his ass handed to him and more than likely was going to die if Qotho's arakh didn't get stuck in bone. Plus Jorah was fighting with armor on.

Its already been shown with Bronn and the Vale Knight that this isn't always an advantage. The quicker and more skilled opponent offsets this.

@Parawan

Yeah I've never gotton that. Its never mentioned that he took a vow of celibacy although Dany says he became a member of her Queensguard and tooks some vows about serving her. Its sort of never explained why Dany would not ask that of him as an expectation for being a member of the Queensguard.

Also just one thing. I just had a weird thought. From the end of ADWD, it looks like Dany might forgive Jorah. But, she would still want him to remember that he had done wrong and that he wasn't let off the hook because that would make her look weak. I think she might brand him like the slavers did with the demon mask but with her sigil. You have to admit that would be a WTF moment. He'd certainly never forget he betrayed the Targs if he has the dragon burned onto his chest.

[Atroksia]

Jorah being attracted to 14yo Dany is nothing really bad imo, because as stated on several pages in the book, being 14yo means almost being an adult, like grown up and mature and stuff, like 17yo nowadays. Might not make it any better, but whatever.

Like comicbookgirl19 said (and I agree, at least as for the TV series-Jorah, and I'm not ashamed to state that here, heh), Jorah is "a hot piece of old man ass".

And about everything he probably has made wrong/going bad/worse, I can only say: no one is perfect and Jorah is only human like all of us, and humans make mistakes.

Plus, Dany wouldn't be where she is without Jorah, all betrayal and stuff aside.

... my PoV.