Princess and the Queen confirms......spoliers

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jorah, in his ignorance, heard that Mirri knew the birthing songs of the Jogos Nhai so he went to her seeking help. Too much of this is beyond Mirri's control for it to be premeditated, which leaves two options: Mirri lied, as you posit above and disposed of the baby (or it was simply stillborn), or Rhaego's exposure to the ritual led to unforeseen results.

Remind me, did Jorah see the baby? I know MMD is the one who told Dany what he looked like, but it seems like Jorah was trying to soften the blow when he told her Rhaego "never lived." I have a hard time seeing Jorah not demanding to see the baby's body to verify what had happened.

[Sevumar]

Remind me, did Jorah see the baby? I know MMD is the one who told Dany what he looked like, but it seems like Jorah was trying to soften the blow when he told her Rhaego "never lived." I have a hard time seeing Jorah not demanding to see the baby's body to verify what had happened.

His information seems secondhand since his description starts with, "the women say..." and then he can't even finish it. Mirri chimes in and provides the details when he falters. I think Jorah may have passed out, but I'm not sure. The book doesn't seem clear. The most we get about his experience inside the tent is he says he only saw Mirri alone dancing with shadows.

[Sansa_Stark]

I think what happened to Rhaego was an accident, and Dany is just telling herself that Mirri intended to murdered him, despite acknowledging earlier that Jorah killed him.

[intheswamp]

Like Bran gaining super powers by eating that Children paste, maybe, long gone Targs ingested large quantities of dragon paste, which continues to play an element on their descendants.

[Schmendrick]

It might be useful to have the two relevant passages side by side for comparison (omissions marked with ellipses):

“He never lived, my princess. The women say …” He faltered, and Dany saw how the flesh hung loose on him, and the way he limped when he moved.

“Tell me. Tell me what the women say.” He turned his face away. His eyes were haunted. “They say the child was …”

....

“Monstrous,” Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. ... “Twisted. ... He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years.”

.... “My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent,” she said. “I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born.”

“That may be as it may be,” answered Mirri Maz Duur, “yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said. Death was in that tent, Khaleesi.”

.... screams echoed through the halls and stairwells of Sea Dragon Tower, down from the queen’s apartments where Rhaenyra Targaryen strained and shuddered in her third day of labor. The child had not been due for another turn of the moon, but the tidings from King’s Landing had driven the princess into a black fury, and her rage seemed to bring on the birth, as if the babe inside her were angry too, and fighting to get out. The princess shrieked curses all through her labor, calling down the wroth of the gods upon her half brothers and their mother the queen, and detailing the torments she would inflict upon them before she would let them die. She cursed the child inside her too. “Get out,” she screamed, clawing at her swollen belly as her maester and her midwife tried to restrain her. “Monster, monster, get out, get out, GET OUT!”

When the babe at last came forth, she proved indeed a monster: a stillborn girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been and a stubby, scaled tail. The dead girl had been named Visenya, Princess Rhaenyra announced the next day, when milk of the poppy had blunted the edge of her pain. “She was my only daughter, and they killed her. They stole my crown and murdered my daughter, and they shall answer for it.”

I already posted my best guess for a related magical cause of the stillbirths, if there is a related magical cause. I keep going back and forth about how likely I think that is.

Whether or not the other deformities were caused by MMD's sorcery, Rhaego's flesh coming off of his bones, the graveworms and the smell of corruption likely were (assuming those weren't cruel lies/exaggerations). Those are the parts related to being "dead for years," so it stands to reason that they would have been caused by MMD's blood/death magic.

As to the rest? The description of Rhaenyra's baby is vague and second (third?) hand, but it's hard to imagine a detail like bat wings would be missed. Still, there are similarities. Both babies are described as having scales (to different degrees). Both have a tail stub. Both are described as monsters (though we don't know whether they were similarly monstrous). Both are described as "twisted" (though we don't know whether they were similarly twisted).

[Florina Laufeyson]

No way they were actually mating with Dragons :dunce:

If true, this genetic connection would be the result of some type of blood/fire sorcery

I wonder how much Rhaenyra's fate foreshadows Dany's. Both are Queens who go to war to press their claim to the throne, both have deformed monster babies, and GRRM has apparently said there will be a "second Dance" in the series

Bolded, i wonder too. I just got done reading PatQ. Rhaenyra mirrors Dany in a lot of ways. All the betrayals really get to her and the birth of stillborn Visenya is what really begins the whole mess of madness. The difference is that Dany does not have other Targs to fall back on. Things will get interesting. Dance 2.0 will happen or ill eat my hat.

Yes, this is what I'm saying. One deformity is due to a blood magic ritual, the other is due to fetal development and an early delivery. Neither seems due to magical Targaryen dragon blood.

One thing is certain. Absolutely certain. Both births happened during times of great stress on both women. While theres nothing really magical about what happened with baby Visenya, Rhaenyra was most definitely really fucking stressed out which caused premature labor. Something similar happened with Dany. The stress of Drogo falling and Mirri's magic caused something to happen. While i do believe that Rhaego's stillbirth had a much more magical bend to it, i think the stress played a factor as well. Rhaego was said to be even more twisted than Visenya. Visenya had a hole where her heart should be and a scaly stubby tail. Rhaego was full of grave worms and had leathery wing-like limbs. I do think Mirri's blood magic had something to do with that.

[Schmendrick]

... the tidings from King’s Landing had driven the princess into a black fury, and her rage seemed to bring on the birth, as if the babe inside her were angry too, and fighting to get out. The princess shrieked curses all through her labor, calling down the wroth of the gods upon her half brothers and their mother the queen, and detailing the torments she would inflict upon them before she would let them die. She cursed the child inside her too.

The bolded parts above could be interpreted as suggesting that Rhaenyra unwittingly invoked some sort of blood magic curse, here. Basically, a play on the fantasy trope of saying the wrong words while the wrong (supernatural) ears are listening.

I don't think that's what actually happened, but it's interesting to consider whether Martin intends for that to be one possible interpretation. Come to think of it, the first Green Council meeting ended with a creepy blood oath (suggested by creepy Larys Strong). Blood magic for everyone!

[Florina Laufeyson]

The bolded parts above could be interpreted as suggesting that Rhaenyra unwittingly invoked some sort of blood magic curse, here. Basically, a play on the fantasy trope of saying the wrong words while the wrong (supernatural) ears are listening.

I don't think that's what actually happened, but it's interesting to consider whether Martin intends for that to be one possible interpretation. Come to think of it, the first Green Council meeting ended with a creepy blood oath (suggested by creepy Larys Strong). Blood magic for everyone!

Thats a bit crackpot. (btw your username makes me smiley happy!) Rhaenyra does start going cray with the whole "GET OUT!" business though.

[Schmendrick]

Thats a bit crackpot. (btw your username makes me smiley happy!) Rhaenyra does start going cray with the whole "GET OUT!" business though.

Oh, I agree! It's very crackpot. I'm just wondering if this particular crackpot is one George is intentionally planting the seeds for. We know how much he likes his writing to support multiple interpretations.

And I'm glad you like my username! Speaking of multiple interpretations, it describes me (sometimes) and it's the name of one of my favorite fantasy characters. :p

[Dagon]

Was anyone else incredibly dismayed at all the beautiful dragons ripping each other to shreds? Such a shame...

[CassBlackfyre]

If it happens once it's a crazy birth defect, if it happens twice in the same way, it is proven. I have seen this written down in the laws of the forum pages. That is the only reason I would make such thread to begin with, because now it has been proven. I stand by it, and I DO NOT think there was any ever dragon/human intercourse, that doesn't make sense at all, there is some other explanation and that is what we should be trying to figure out. Reptiles and mammals can't have offspring, so I think we can rule out bestiality. Obviously in this world of serious magic there is always some mythical explanation of these types of things. Plus Ran agrees with me, so that is another form of proof in my book.

no, the nature of genetic defects is that they're.....genetic. the Targaryens are all inbred, so genetic defects like

Harlequin-type ichthyosis, which is what Rhaego had IMO, are rare but can happen, especially amongst inbred families. there could be a magical explanation though, at the ene dof the day. but two genetic defects appearing in a super inbred family isnt proof or confirmation for me of dragon blood

[C0bR]

One would expect, that to have an actual dragonblood in the lineage, there would have to be an actual living and healthy dragonbaby/dragon!Targ sometime in the past - the missing link. As long as there isn't any, I'll remain skeptical.

[Barty]

All the TPatQ confirms is dragons are not WMDs(at least not until they are like a hundred years old) and that the Targs apparently were crazy douchebags even back in the day.

[Maia]

I am seriously perplexed by insistence that Dany and Rhaenyra are alike. I mean, they are both female and both have tempers, but I really see no other resemblance.

I really don't see Dany making most of Rhaenyra's problematic decisions. She would have made some herself, of course, but they would have been very different.

Yes, Dany wonders about betrayal, but I'd argue that any ruler needs a little healthy paranoia. The key is to keep it healthy and that's the balance that all historical rulers had to grapple with, and even the greatest of them succombed occasionaly. Dany didn't decide that all sellswords needed to be killed after one company betrayed her or anything along these lines.

For that matter, Dany wouldn't have even needed the dragonseeds in Rhaenyra's situation, as she would have taken an active role herself and encouraged Rhaena to bond one of the older dragons.

IMHO, Dany would have been more likely to do something rash and get killed in battle, like Princess Rhaenys.

Nor would Dany have tried to stop inhabitants of KL from leaving, in fact she would have encouraged them to leave in order to limit civilian casualities in the case of an attack.

Nor would she have sat on her ass during he mob's attack on Dragonpit.

Dany's indecision in Meeren was about trying to protect the people in an impossible situation, not reluctance to take action on her own behalf! And anyway, it seems to me that it was supposed to be a "lesson learned" event.

I also think that to the extent that the new "Dance" is going to happen, Aegon is going to mirror Rhaenyra. I.e. he will triumphantly take KL, start with promise, have his brief "high summer" and then fall apart under the onslaught of difficulties. Lannister/Tyrells seem to mirror Aegon II. Dany's role is somewhat unclear, IMHO, but then, we don't know what happened during the last half-year of the Dance.

I am really not seeing any kind of protracted struggle between Dany and Aegon, because she still has a lot on her plate before she'd be able to even reach Westeros. I mean, Barristan now contractually obligated her to attack Pentos, of all places!

So, maybe something else will happen to make one of Aegon's likely opponents, who, beyond the western-southern alliance are likely to inlude Stannis, Riverland movement with Gendry as a figurehead, somebody or other with Edric Storm as a figurehead, etc. to count as a "dragon" too.

Nor do the actual dragons need to be involved on both sides. As Apple Martini likes to remind us, the dragons in most visions turn out to refer to people with Targaryen ancestry, rather than actual animals ;).

[Khal Pod]

If there is going to be a second dance, do people think that it will be dragon vs dragon? If so do you think it would be Dany's dragons against one another, or that there will be more dragons. I personally don't want her dragons to fight one another, nor do I want to wait for some other dragons to mature. Of course GRRM doesn't care what I want, but I think it's more likely to be as @Maia just said, Targaryens rather than the actual animals.

[Lyse Stark]

no, the nature of genetic defects is that they're.....genetic. the Targaryens are all inbred, so genetic defects like

Harlequin-type ichthyosis, which is what Rhaego had IMO, are rare but can happen, especially amongst inbred families. there could be a magical explanation though, at the ene dof the day. but two genetic defects appearing in a super inbred family isnt proof or confirmation for me of dragon blood

And I've been reading about a girl named Brenna Westlake who was born with this condition. Here's the link.

http://www.blessedbybrenna.com/

Yes inbreeding make for more genetic disorders, that's why incest is a near-universal taboo.

Jon Snow would have married outside the family because he realized that the incest gave Aerys a higher risk of mental illness, and he follows the Old Gods. They forbade incest because inbreeding makes sickly offspring, and Jon doesn't want a repeat of the Mad King.

[Maia]

Well, Rhaego was the opposite of inbred, since I doubt that there have been any Dothraki in Dany's family tree ever. So to the extent that there were any real similarities between him and Visenya, they weren't due to inbreeding.

[Chacho88]

wasnt tyrion said to have been born all deformed as well but then he wasn't, dont remember the exact passage from the red viper

[jet199]

Well, Rhaego was the opposite of inbred, since I doubt that there have been any Dothraki in Dany's family tree ever. So to the extent that there were any real similarities between him and Visenya, they weren't due to inbreeding.

Well the dothraki appeared after the doom of valyria so Dany and Drogo may have been somewhat related depended on where the dothraki actually came from.

[Annara Snow]

LOL at people seriously entertaining the idea that Targaryens actually mated with dragons. They have "blood of the dragon" as much as the Starks have wolf blood in them. There's symbolism and probably some magic that gave Targaryens their special bonds with dragons. I'm not sure if fucking a dragon is even physically possible, and anyone who tried it would probably end up dead anyway, but even if these strange interspecies sexy times had happened, the idea that two such different species could produce and offspring is hilariously absurd. I know that GRRM takes some liberties with the rules of genetics and biology, but to that level? C'mon.

Anyway, humans are sometimes born with a tail; it's a rare genetic defect that does exist in real life. http://listverse.com/2010/09/08/top-10-bizarre-birth-defects/

Coccyx[edit]

The coccyx, or tailbone, is the remnant of a lost tail. All mammals have a tail at one point in their development; in humans, it is present for a period of 4 weeks, during stages 14 to 22 ofhuman embryogenesis.^[14] This tail is most prominent in human embryos 31–35 days old.^[15] The tailbone, located at the end of the spine, has lost its original function in assisting balance and mobility, though it still serves some secondary functions, such as being an attachment point for muscles, which explains why it has not degraded further.

In rare cases congenital defect results in a short tail-like structure being present at birth. Twenty-three cases of human babies born with such a structure have been reported in the medical literature since 1884.^[16][17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_vestigiality

And about 1% of babies are born with some heart defect. "A hole where her heart should be" may be an exaggeration of one of the realistic congenital heart defects.