R + L = J v 69

[Hoyti_Von_Totiy]

Jon's parentage relates to the books' bigger picture themes -- Ice and Fire. That's true whether or not Jon ever actually sits the Iron Throne.

what bigger picture themes ...? if the ASOIAF books are to be re-relised tomorow with "the others" complitley cut out, books would be just fine and no new reader would notice anything significnt is missing.

Thats how "the others" rate in this story.

[Dead Wolf]

It was a plot, and we don't know if it's true. The thing is that the Tourney at Harrenhall was very suspicious, where the timing was involved. Whent and Dayne were two close friends of Rhaegar. Many great lords would be present (though not all, no Lannisters safe Jaime, no Tully's). The entire thing was suspicious, in hind sight. It was Varys who called it a conspiracy, which moved Aerys to join the tourney as a guest, which caused the plot, if it existed (and I truly believe it did), to be thrown away. The fact that Varys knew might have already been enough to stop Rhaegar from going through with his plotting. With Aerys present at Harrenhall it became even more dangerous.

I don't think the plot was thrown away after Harrenhal. Jaime remebers Rhaegar saying he would make changes at court that he should have made beore when he returned from the Trident.

[Whatever]

I think the theory in question is more about fAegon than Jon. GRRM said a mystery that's been around since ACoK would be resolved, but R+L=J is even older than that.

GRRM said it was a theory people 'had figured out as early as 1998', or something like it. He didn't specifically said that it was an ACOK related theory - and, even if he had, there are no other pre-ASOS theories still hanging, except for Aegon being alive (which IMO wasn't fully sormed back then, and pribably is not it) the House of the Undying (which is more a collection of prophecies/visions than a fan theory) and R+L=J.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

what bigger picture themes ...? if the ASOIAF books are to be re-relised tomorow with "the others" complitley cut out, books would be just fine and no new reader would notice anything significnt is missing.

Thats how "the others" rate in this story.

The greatest troll trick GRRM is ever going to play is the sudden realization that the game of thrones was the red herring all along.

[Ygrain]

snip

That's how I think the things went, as well.

what bigger picture themes ...? if the ASOIAF books are to be re-relised tomorow with "the others" complitley cut out, books would be just fine and no new reader would notice anything significnt is missing.

Thats how "the others" rate in this story.

You must possess an entirely different copy.

[Schmendrick]

what bigger picture themes ...? if the ASOIAF books are to be re-relised tomorow with "the others" complitley cut out, books would be just fine and no new reader would notice anything significnt is missing.

Thats how "the others" rate in this story.

Did you ... read the quote from the author that I posted? There's a reason that the book series is called A Song of Ice and Fire and not A Game of Thrones.

[Ser Creighton]

The greatest troll trick GRRM is ever going to play is the sudden realization that the game of thrones was the red herring all along.

Chances are it is not a red herring, but it's jut not important. At no point has he shown that politics or being a ruling power, or your blood making you special, or might makes right is a good thing. It would seem far more the opposite and for all his color, horror, humor, Martin likes to send a much deeper message with his books. He generally leaves his ending partially open to speculation and in large part about introspection.

The large part of the fan base is probably doing just what he wants, picking sides, picking characters, hating other characters. By and large because he wants to flip it on you to add potency to his message. Whatever messages he is sending and it will probably be more than one. As each character is walking different paths, some will probably interconnect while others like Arya and Sansa have a different story and those stories are trying to relay different meanings and messages. While I suspect a large portion of the POV's to interconnect, I expect there stories to relay a different message as part of a greater whole.

It's funny that we see fans constantly arguing over who will take the throne, which is exactly what happens in the books. Can you think of any fans like that, some of us have always been of a mind that this was not the story and some have called the Others red herrings. Even though the Others by and large have the ability to relate a larger message on life, death, existence, and balance or lack there of.

The argument of Jon's blood is probably one of the most misleading focus points of the story. While it is interesting and fun to speculate on his parents. And by and large we know who they are, does it matter? It will be Jon's actions not his blood that decides his fate in the long run. His parents have little to no effect on his upbringing, or who he is. Will it be super special blood that decides a characters fate, or there mind and who they are as a person?

And crap a new Game of Thrones trailer, extended cut it would appear. Later.

[Fred of Ashai]

I think this is exactly it. I might be entirely wrong, but I don't find the "orders" bit of all of this to be particularly confusing or contradictory in the slightest. I think people often make it far more complicated than it needs to be.

Here's a rough sketch of how I think it went down.

Whent and Dayne were Rhaegar's personal detail, "loaned" to him by Aerys. In that capacity, they would follow Rhaegar's orders until Aerys recalled them and/or gave them orders that superseded Rhaegar's. In that capacity, they were with Rhaegar when he "abducted" Lyanna (I think probably from Harrenhal, not immediately after the tournament but from Harrenhal nonetheless).

Whent and Dayne continue to be in Rhaegar's servce when he and Lyanna end up relocating to Dorne and going into hiding. Because Aerys does not know where the two men are, exactly, he can't recall them or give them superseding orders. But as the war goes on, he sends Hightower to get Rhaegar back.

Now this is where it gets critical. Is it a loophole, absolutely. Does it still work as a valid explanation, absolutely.

I think that Aerys's orders to Hightower were probably broad. "We need Rhaegar to lead the army, make sure he gets back here." Something to that effect. Hightower goes off and manages to track down Rhaegar. Rhaegar agrees to go back, but orders Hightower to stay at the Tower. That does not contradict Aerys's order. Hightower can fulfill his order getting Rhaegar back and also fulfill Rhaegar's order to stay at the Tower. Rhaegar goes back and dies, and Aerys still has no way to reach the three men at the Tower. He can't recall them even if he wanted to because he doesn't know where they are. And because Rhaegar gave them a valid order, one Aerys can't override, the men have to stay. They can't "pick and choose" the orders to follow in this instance; they might want to go back and fight, but they can't.

Fast forward. Rhaegar dies at the Trident and soon after, Aerys and Aegon die in the capital. The Kingsguard stay where they are, even though it turns out, from Ned's memory, that they were aware of what had happened. So why are they still there? You would think it could be Rhaegar's orders, but no. Rhaegar is dead, and Viserys, the new king supposedly, is on Dragonstone unprotected. The orders of the dead prince that were in force when he was alive are not valid now that there is a new king and Rhaegar is dead. I also think that if the men had learned about Rhaegar's death before they knew about Aerys's, one or more would have left the Tower to go to Aerys. However, I think they learned about all three deaths at the same time. Meaning, there was never anything they could have done for Aerys or Aegon.

But they're still at the Tower, knowing that Aegon, Aerys and Rhaegar are dead. They are the last loyal members of their Kingsguard. So why aren't they now en route to Viserys? Because Viserys isn't the king now.

The "orders" thing is a matter of timing (the men have to learn about the three deaths at the same time; if they learn about Rhaegar before the Sack, it doesn't work) and loophole exploitation (Rhaegar exploiting that loophole to keep Hightower in Dorne even when he went back), but it still makes perfect sense and more importantly it significantly cuts down on hand-wringing, contradictions and confusion.

I think it's a lot simpler than this. According to Barristan Selmy, King's guard protection can be extended to royal wives, children, mistresses and bastards. Aerys ordered the King's guard to extend protection to Rhaegar. Rhaegar ordered them to extend it to Lyanna. It doesn't matter if she is a wife or a mistress and it doesn't matter if she had a baby. They have to protect her.

[lojzelote]

The greatest troll trick GRRM is ever going to play is the sudden realization that the game of thrones was the red herring all along.

While I think that the Others plot will doubtlessly play a huge part in the fate of Westeros, I wouldn't call the politics, scheming and infighting we have seen so far a red herring; it has taken up the vast majority of text in five books out of the planned seven. If it had no significance, I would call it bad writing. What author writes thousands of pages of something that ultimately doesn't matter at all and leaves much less room for the only important plot?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think it's a lot simpler than this. According to Barristan Selmy, King's guard protection can be extended to royal wives, children, mistresses and bastards. Aerys ordered the King's guard to extend protection to Rhaegar. Rhaegar ordered them to extend it to Lyanna. It doesn't matter if she is a wife or a mistress and it doesn't matter if she had a baby. They have to protect her.

Doesn't explain why they were still there after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon died. That's the crux of it which you apparently missed in my explanation.

[Ygrain]

I think it's a lot simpler than this. According to Barristan Selmy, King's guard protection can be extended to royal wives, children, mistresses and bastards. Aerys ordered the King's guard to extend protection to Rhaegar. Rhaegar ordered them to extend it to Lyanna. It doesn't matter if she is a wife or a mistress and it doesn't matter if she had a baby. They have to protect her.

Either it is their first duty to protect the king, or it is their first duty to obey orders. It can't be both. You claim that obeying orders takes priority, yet, for some reason, Barristan says that the first duty is to protect the king.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

While I think that the Others plot will doubtlessly play a huge part in the fate of Westeros, I wouldn't call the politics, scheming and infighting we have seen so far a red herring; it has taken up the vast majority of text in five books out of the planned seven. If it had no significance, I would call it bad writing. What author writes thousands of pages of something that ultimately doesn't matter at all and leaves much less room for the only important plot?

It obviously does have significance: Most of these idiots are busy squabbling over whose ass sits on a chair while the real threat to humanity is marginalized. That's what I mean when I say that the game is the red herring. People (and the books) devote a large chunk of effort and energy to a cause that's ultimately bankrupt of any real meaning.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Either it is their first duty to protect the king, or it is their first duty to obey orders. It can't be both. You claim that obeying orders takes priority, yet, for some reason, Barristan says that the first duty is to protect the king.

And when push came to shove, Aerys could and probably would have ordered Dayne, Whent and Hightower back into service. That would have been more important to him than that they were guarding Lyanna. That the three men's orders were never overridden by Aerys strongly implies that this was because he couldn't override them (read: he didn't know where they were and had no way to access them), not because he had no reason to.

[Alia of the knife]

The importance of Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, sworn to each other before weirwood, may be something entirely else than sitting an ugly iron chair.

Or Aerys has no way to contact them directly, and hence cannot countermand whatever orders Rhaegar gave.

Which is why it would be good to know just how Hightower found them. He may have been the "contact," but was persuaded otherwise.

[lojzelote]

It obviously does have significance: Most of these idiots are busy squabbling over whose ass sits on a chair while the real threat to humanity is marginalized. That's what I mean when I say that the game is the red herring. People (and the books) devote a large chunk of effort and energy to a cause that's ultimately bankrupt of any real meaning.

Well, you may see it that way. The way I see it, these idiots make for a great story. Anyhow, unless the Others win or, following the war, humankind chooses to live in an absolute anarchy, who's going to rule will be important again. As a reader you may not care who ends up as the King and who as a shepherd, but the people of the Seven Kingdoms will see it differently. The politics and people who make politics shape Westeros as well. ETA: It is important whether the ruler will be a Cersei, a Tywin, a Mace, or a Ned.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well, you may see it that way. The way I see it, these idiots make for a great story. Anyhow, unless the Others win or, following the war, humankind chooses to live in an absolute anarchy, who's going to rule will be important again. As a reader you may not care who ends up as the King and who as a shepherd, but the people of the Seven Kingdoms will see it differently. The politics and people who make politics shape Westeros as well. ETA: It is important whether the ruler will be a Cersei, a Tywin, a Mace, or a Ned.

But again, that's the point. Whoever ends up king will ideally earn it by saving humanity from whatever this existential threat is, not by playing cloak-and-dagger games in back rooms. The "game" is what's pointless.

[lojzelote]

But again, that's the point. Whoever ends up king will ideally earn it by saving humanity from whatever this existential threat is, not by playing cloak-and-dagger games in back rooms. The "game" is what's pointless.

What I'm saying is that who rules is important, after and before the war. It influenced the lives of hundred thousands of people in Westeros. I woudn't say it's not important just because the Others will put a stop to it for a while.

Anyhow, to add something to the topic of this thread; why is it so important if Jon is a bastard or not? It's not like he could prove it either way and being a bastard wouldn't make him an inferior human being or anything.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Anyhow, to add something to the topic of this thread; why is it so important if Jon is a bastard or not? It's not like he could prove it either way and being a bastard wouldn't make him an inferior human being or anything.

I don't think GRRM has anything in the story that he can't also prove or support in the story. So this "Jon can't prove it" stuff, I don't buy it. Just because you haven't thought of the proof doesn't mean GRRM hasn't. If the Rhaegar angle didn't matter at all and would have no role to play, GRRM could've just made Jon Ned's bastard and been done with it. Likewise, nothing much changes if he goes from being Ned's bastard to being Rhaegar's. Throw in all of the little clues and foreshadowing ("Bastards aren't allowed to strike princes" only makes sense as wordplay if Joffrey is a bastard and Jon is legitimate, and it's so obviously wordplay I shouldn't even have to explain it), it's pretty clear that he's not just a bastard.

[Fred of Ashai]

Doesn't explain why they were still there after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon died. That's the crux of it which you apparently missed in my explanation.

Are you referring to your assumption that Rhaegar's order died when he did? I think that is incorrect for two reasons. First, it is contradicted by the quote from Martin. He was asked why they stayed and fought Ned, and he said it was Rhaegar's order. At that point they knew Rhaegar was dead but they still followed his order.

Second, in the Princess and the Queen,

King Viserys gave an order for Otto Hightower to serve as Hand. It says that even after Viserys died, that order would remain in force until a new king was proclaimed.

So until a new king is proclaimed (or a Regent is established) and Rhaegar's order was countermanded, Rhaegar's order would stand.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Are you referring to your assumption that Rhaegar's order died when he did? I think that is incorrect for two reasons. First, it is contradicted by the quote from Martin. He was asked why they stayed and fought Ned, and he said it was Rhaegar's order. At that point they knew Rhaegar was dead but they still followed his order.

They still followed the order because at that point Jon was the king. It's two different things (Rhaegar's order, Jon being king) that yield the same outcome (Kingsguard at the Tower).

I'd also say that this is a very unique situation and not at all like the one in TPatQ. For starters, the new king is a newborn. He has no Hand, no council, no advocates other than the Kingsguard. The goal is to keep him from getting killed, not to engineer a coup.