The guy from the Vale Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 The KG hanging around Starfall, because otherwise he can't ensure the protection of the prince in case the Daynes or one of their servants spills the beans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 The KG hanging around Starfall, because otherwise he can't ensure the protection of the prince in case the Daynes or one of their servants spills the beans. And if they know that Ned et co. are coming to ToJ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Even then. Imagine Ned coming, all three losing - Jon would be without KG protection afterwards. If they move Jon, they have to send one KG with him to ensure his future protection, not just his current one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Look at it this way: which is the essential part - a KG hanging around Starfall just in case, or staying at ToJ preventing anyone from finding out that Lyanna had given birth? No contest. The Kingsguard duty is to protect the King. They can be sent off on various other duties and tasked with protecting other members of the royal family, but one of them must always be with the King. If Jon is the legitimate heir then at least one of the Kingsgard must be with him. This is made very explicit when Jaime chairs his first meeting as Lord Commander. His opening line is "who guards the King?" to which one of them responds that his brother is doing it while they are at the meeting - in the same castle. A temporary local arrangement is fine, but otherwise somebody must be with the King. That therefore comes back to the simple proposition which has been argued on this thread all along that the Kingsguard are at the Tower because Jon is their King. If on the other hand Jon is at Starfall and they are all at the Tower then plainly he is not their King because not even one of them is protecting him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WiDMNDBAMMD Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Nothing new to report unfortunately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Wait a sec there. Someone just asked me about why I feel Jon Snow was at Starfall. They did not ask me in connection to what I tweeted earlier. Maybe they were asking because they're speculating that's what my tweet was about... but I can say quite firmly that my original tweet does not concern Jon's presence or lack of presence at Starfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Thanks Jory. I'm quite relieved about that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Even then. Imagine Ned coming, all three losing - Jon would be without KG protection afterwards. If they move Jon, they have to send one KG with him to ensure his future protection, not just his current one. All three losing is an option, two of them losing is practically a certainty. Mind you, I don't really think that Jon was at Starfall, I just think that interpreting the vow as being always in the king's presence might be too narrow-minded, and that there might occur a situation which would require not being in the king's presence to protect him. My scenario changes nothing about Jon's legitimacy; if he wasn't legitimate, keeping Lyanna's condition secret wouldn't be a must. No contest. The Kingsguard duty is to protect the King. They can be sent off on various other duties and tasked with protecting other members of the royal family, but one of them must always be with the King. If Jon is the legitimate heir then at least one of the Kingsgard must be with him. This is made very explicit when Jaime chairs his first meeting as Lord Commander. His opening line is "who guards the King?" to which one of them responds that his brother is doing it while they are at the meeting - in the same castle. A temporary local arrangement is fine, but otherwise somebody must be with the King. That therefore comes back to the simple proposition which has been argued on this thread all along that the Kingsguard are at the Tower because Jon is their King. If on the other hand Jon is at Starfall and they are all at the Tower then plainly he is not their King because not even one of them is protecting him Did you read my example with the KG and the lever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I agree with you that sometimes being with the king might not be possible, but from all that we've seen (Jaime holding the meeting, Barristan organizing the search), these situations are kept at the absolutely minimal time possible, always with the objective of getting a KG back to the king (or queen, in Selmy's case) as soon as possible. I can't see week- or month-long absence of any KG protection with being in line with the KG vow. A few hours, perhaps, if there is no other option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 What I said lol No WoIaF material will get too close to the ToJ ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 What I said lol No WoIaF material will get too close to the ToJ ;) That was my belief too, but the current "Jon was at Starfall"-mania has me worried somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I agree with you that sometimes being with the king might not be possible, but from all that we've seen (Jaime holding the meeting, Barristan organizing the search), these situations are kept at the absolutely minimal time possible, always with the objective of getting a KG back to the king (or queen, in Selmy's case) as soon as possible. I can't see week- or month-long absence of any KG protection with being in line with the KG vow. A few hours, perhaps, if there is no other option. I think this is particularly reinforced by the ritual formality of Jaime's question and the response. There must always be someone with the King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 That was my belief too, but the current "Jon was at Starfall"-mania has me worried somehow. I don't think "worried" is quite the right word. I can see a certain logic to the argument but I'm not sure that those embracing it have grasped the implication of Jon being in one place and the Kingsguard being somewhere else entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 That was my belief too, but the current "Jon was at Starfall"-mania has me worried somehow.Indeed lol Imho no major plot (twist) points will be touched by the world book. Valyrian dragon blood is my top guess. Or some intriguing details about ancestry and family lines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I think this is particularly reinforced by the ritual formality of Jaime's question and the response. There must always be someone with the King. The primary vow is to protect the king. That supersedes all other vows, rules or regulations in the event of a conflict. If Jaime and company can make an exception to have a meeting, then Hightower, Dayne and Whent can make an exception to protect the newborn king's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I agree with you that sometimes being with the king might not be possible, but from all that we've seen (Jaime holding the meeting, Barristan organizing the search), these situations are kept at the absolutely minimal time possible, always with the objective of getting a KG back to the king (or queen, in Selmy's case) as soon as possible. I can't see week- or month-long absence of any KG protection with being in line with the KG vow. A few hours, perhaps, if there is no other option. Jaime's staff meeting means that the KG are currently not doing their KG duty, and Barristan is unable to because he doesn't know where Dany is. I'm talking about an entirely different and very specific (and also theoretical) instance of KG duty to protect the king interfering with the usual requirement to do so by being in the king's presence. I believe that in such an instance, the KG would be required to leave the king to perform his duty. - Basically, I'm only extending the situation that worries Black Crow: all three KG left the king's immediate presence to take a stand outside the tower. If the protection of the king at Starfall requires that they take a stand at ToJ to prevent anyone finding out about his very existence, then this is what they must do. I don't think "worried" is quite the right word. I can see a certain logic to the argument but I'm not sure that those embracing it have grasped the implication of Jon being in one place and the Kingsguard being somewhere else entirely. The KG and the lever - you still haven't answered what you think the KG should do, or have I missed your answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I don't think "worried" is quite the right word. I can see a certain logic to the argument but I'm not sure that those embracing it have grasped the implication of Jon being in one place and the Kingsguard being somewhere else entirely. I think we agree... and I think Jon was at the ToJ when Ned arrived; there's quite a bit of evidence for it (the crown of blue winter roses, which probably is Ned's dream stand-in for Jon...) Indeed lol Imho no major plot (twist) points will be touched by the world book. Valyrian dragon blood is my top guess. Or some intriguing details about ancestry and family lines... From all I understand about what TWoIaF is supposed to contain, I would have guessed the same. That's why I'm so startled by this entire Starfall thing. ETA@Ygrain: I think we have covered that the KG can leave the king if they can absolutely keep that time to a minimum. Running to the lever and running back on the shortest path would probably be just about in the scope of the vow. Setting up camp somewhere totally else is much more problematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I think we agree... and I think Jon was at the ToJ when Ned arrived; there's quite a bit of evidence for it (the crown of blue winter roses, which probably is Ned's dream stand-in for Jon...) From all I understand about what TWoIaF is supposed to contain, I would have guessed the same. That's why I'm so startled by this entire Starfall thing. ETA@Ygrain: I think we have covered that the KG can leave the king if they can absolutely keep that time to a minimum. Running to the lever and running back on the shortest path would probably be just about in the scope of the vow. Setting up camp somewhere totally else is much more problematic. No it isn't. Not if they thought it was their best chance to protect the king. Also, is there any reason to assume the hypothetical separation of Jon from his KG was anything other than temporary? Ran speculates that Jon was sent to Starfall because of Lyanna's illness. Perhaps the KG received word that a group of rebels was headed for the tower and they sent Jon away as a precaution. If you hear that baby-killing rebels are headed for your location, it might make sense to send the newborn king somewhere else. Why stay with at the tower with Lyanna? Because of what she knew; i.e., that Jon existed in the first place, that he is legitimate, and she probably knew his location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 ETA@Ygrain: I think we have covered that the KG can leave the king if they can absolutely keep that time to a minimum. Running to the lever and running back on the shortest path would probably be just about in the scope of the vow. Setting up camp somewhere totally else is much more problematic. Absolutely, its a very different set of circumstances. And on the wider note I too remained puzzled as to why so much excitement - or rather why the assumption that it's Ran's theory of the Starfall conection which has been picked up. World Books aside I'm sure he has other theories... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 No it isn't. Not if they thought it was their best chance to protect the king. Also, is there any reason to assume the hypothetical separation of Jon from his KG was anything other than temporary? Ran speculates that Jon was sent to Starfall because of Lyanna's illness. Perhaps the KG received word that a group of rebels was headed for the tower and they sent Jon away as a precaution. If you hear that baby-killing rebels are headed for your location, it might make sense to send the newborn king somewhere else. Why stay with at the tower with Lyanna? Because of what she knew; i.e., that Jon existed in the first place, that he is legitimate, and she probably knew his location. The problem with the latter is that staying that far away from the king means they can't react to any unforeseen threats to his safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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