R + L = J v 69

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah I know about the Stark with Targ blood theory, and the thing is it is the easiest thing in the world for the author to introduce as none of the trees are set. I am just kind of surprised it is being passed around again. Last time I tried to talk about people got all kinds of upset about it. I always thought it made perfect sense. I think who the Stark and Targ were doesn't matter much, just rather it happened. Though I don't recall an Edwyles theory, then again I could of written an Edwyles theory and I probably wouldn't remember it these days. You got the basics or link to the theory?

People get upset for the strangest things sometimes, but it's not like the Starks are an insignificant family, and if a generation of Targaryens came along who were allowed to marry for love, or had not enough siblings, then they would have to marry someone highborn enough for them, and the Starks themselves likely have more royal blood than do the Targaryens.

Not only do we see the Targs. marrying Martells and Berantheons, but Hightowers etc. In fact, they don't actually practice incest all that much if you look at their family tree.

But, the gaping holes in the Stark family tree on who the mothers were beg to be questioned.

As for the link, I'm going to have dig way back, but I will see what I can find.

[J. Stargaryen]

Can I have a link to it, please?

I actually never happened on it before - how would it work, timeline-wise? Jon was born within a month of the Sack, given or taken, but I'd always thought he was born a month after - it made the most sense, with Lyanna's death being a direct consequence of childbirth; otherwise she must have been sick for weeks before dying, which seems kind of unrealistic - hanging on just until Ned arrived.

Also, how does the theory explain the KS at the tower - all of them? And it seems really odd to move a child that small.

I hope I'm not being annoying with the questions, but it's interesting to find I theory I haven't ever read after years of the same things *me curious*.

Sorry to say, but I don't know any more details. It was something that I recall Ran mentioning several months ago. Tbh, I'm not sure if the theory needs to be more specific than what has already been stated though.

Assuming Jon was at Starfall, the KG stayed at the ToJ either because they were fulfilling their duty as Rhaegar had laid it out, and/or they felt that staying with Lyanna was the best way to keep Jon safe because Lyanna knew all kinds of vital info. Such as Jon's location, his likely legitimate birth, etc. Not to mention, but Starfall is a castle with access to the sea, as opposed to an old, landlocked tower.

[Schmendrick]

Per the "logistical detail" tweet, I'm reminded that Ran thinks Ned picked Jon up from Starfall, not the ToJ. I'm not sure if that is the type of information we could expect to find in the World book though.

ETA: "It's a logistical detail connected to a popular theory." - @westerosorg

Really?! I hadn't heard about Ran's theory, but I have a theory on the back burner that assumes the same thing (the one related to your catch about the Ned/Cersei dreams). Any idea where I can read more about Ran's theory? If you don't know off the top of your head, no worries. I'll find it later.

Edit: You responded above while I was posting. Never mind. :)

[Ser Creighton]

You know something I have been wondering is about Lyanna, and not anything to do with the mystery.

But somehow, someway Martin has managed to kill this woman twice in two different series. Twice she has broken the heart of a guy named Rob/Robb, twice she seems to have felt misunderstood and twice he has killed her in a book. Now I am not saying the guy has a problem letting things go. But really? Twice? How much can you care about someone and kill them twice? I mean really let it go. I really wonder about her part in the series.

[Ser Creighton]

People get upset for the strangest things sometimes, but it's not like the Starks are an insignificant family, and if a generation of Targaryens came along who were allowed to marry for love, or had not enough siblings, then they would have to marry someone highborn enough for them, and the Starks themselves likely have more royal blood than do the Targaryens.

Not only do we see the Targs. marrying Martells and Berantheons, but Hightowers etc. In fact, they don't actually practice incest all that much if you look at their family tree.

But, the gaping holes in the Stark family tree on who the mothers were beg to be questioned.

As for the link, I'm going to have dig way back, but I will see what I can find.

Oh don't worry about a link, I can find it on my own, but thanks anyway, don't want you wasting your time on something a I can and should do myself.

[Alia of the knife]

Oh don't worry about a link, I can find it on my own, but thanks anyway, don't want you wasting your time on something a I can and should do myself.

Okay, but no trouble. :)

[Whatever]

You know something I have been wondering is about Lyanna, and not anything to do with the mystery.

But somehow, someway Martin has managed to kill this woman twice in two different series. Twice she has broken the heart of a guy named Rob/Robb, twice she seems to have felt misunderstood and twice he has killed her in a book. Now I am not saying the guy has a problem letting things go. But really? Twice? How much can you care about someone and kill them twice? I mean really let it go. I really wonder about her part in the series.

He probably just likes the name ;)

I read A song for Lya after reading ASOIAF, so I was kinda expecting it

[Ser Creighton]

He probably just likes the name ;)

I read A song for Lya after reading ASOIAF, so I was kinda expecting it

I think like might a bit of a strong word here. I also read it after the series. As soon as I saw the title I was like she is not finishing the book.

[Fire Eater]

Well actually they are inherently unwargable, you have to look at the magic. Remember Dragons, the wall, warging, the Others are all magic. So much of the books is around politics and human nature that they forget about the magic to often.

Magic comes in three forms in Westeros. Fire, Ice and Nature. Warging is nature and not inherently compatible with Ice or fire. 3, stars, that 3 colors have been symbolic of this magic. The green star from Dunk and egg, go look at the scene again, look at Dunks sigil. The red star or comet, and the blue star of the celestial bodied dragon.

Actually I think the green and nature magic fits in the category of Ice magic. The Valyrians' magic was rooted in fire and blood, while the greenseer's powers are rooted in ice/water and greenery/trees.

In order for Jon to warg a dragon, he needs the fire within him or he will burn. In order for Jon to Warg ice he needs the ice within him, and warging is green magic is already part of him. Not on Brans level but it is part of him. A person must become all three in order to bring the light. Martin picked those colors for a reason and symbolized the magic with them. It's not 4 types of magic or 5, it's 3. 3 that make one.

I think Jon having blood of the dragon might aid him in warging a dragon, providing something for the fire magic in the dragon to connect to.

[Lyse Stark]

I think Jon having blood of the dragon might aid him in warging a dragon, providing something for the fire magic in the dragon to connect to.

And his warging abilities can enhance the Dragonbond and vice versa. And I have a really weird question.

Jon's direwolf, Ghost is used to arctic climates, while Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion are desert/tropical creatures. So if Jon's warg/Dragonbond goes both way, is it possible that Ghost can lend the dragon some cold resistance, and the dragon some heat tolerance for Ghost, using Jon as a conduit?

[Ygrain]

Can I have a link to it, please?

I actually never happened on it before - how would it work, timeline-wise? Jon was born within a month of the Sack, given or taken, but I'd always thought he was born a month after - it made the most sense, with Lyanna's death being a direct consequence of childbirth; otherwise she must have been sick for weeks before dying, which seems kind of unrealistic - hanging on just until Ned arrived.

Also, how does the theory explain the KS at the tower - all of them? And it seems really odd to move a child that small.

I hope I'm not being annoying with the questions, but it's interesting to find I theory I haven't ever read after years of the same things *me curious*.

Actually, it might be a twist that I proposed once - the KG are protecting the king by 1) not letting anyone find out that he was born (which is why no-one may be allowed near Lyanna), and 2) not being with him and thus not drawing attention by their easily recognisable presence. They are stil keeping the spirit of their vows by staying at ToJ.

It is well possible that the Starfall scenario actually mirrored what Ned later did himself (perhaps he took inspiration there?) - Wylla, probably a relation of someone at Starfall, arrived with a kid which she claimed for hers, and Jon was to be raised at Starfall in ignorance of his heritage and perfectly safe from the world because no-one would give a shit about some servant's brat. However, then Lord Stark arrived and claimed the bastard for his own, and took him away, and again, no-one gave a second thought to that except thinking that it was nice of him to act on his responsibility.

As I think of it, perhaps Jon was relocated immediately after he was born - as has been pointed out, ToJ hardly had facilities to attend to the needs of a newborn properly, and it was reasonable to assume that the location might have been compromised (depending on who their contact was, who informed Ned and if Ned was sent for or not). The original plan might have included relocating Lyanna, as well, but as her state didn't allow it, the KG had to stay as a decoy.

[Varmyr]

Jon's direwolf, Ghost is used to arctic climates, while Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion are desert/tropical creatures. So if Jon's warg/Dragonbond goes both way, is it possible that Ghost can lend the dragon some cold resistance, and the dragon some heat tolerance for Ghost, using Jon as a conduit?

Not a chance - There is no precedence in the series for anything like this. GRRM would have at least had to have discussed or introduced the concept of 'heat tolerance' / 'cold resistance' to his audience by book 5 if we were going to see anything of this nature.

GRRM is very subtle with regards to magic because it broadens his readership & allows him to make more money.

[Black Crow]

Actually, it might be a twist that I proposed once - the KG are protecting the king by 1) not letting anyone find out that he was born (which is why no-one may be allowed near Lyanna), and 2) not being with him and thus not drawing attention by their easily recognisable presence. They are stil keeping the spirit of their vows by staying at ToJ.

It is well possible that the Starfall scenario actually mirrored what Ned later did himself (perhaps he took inspiration there?) - Wylla, probably a relation of someone at Starfall, arrived with a kid which she claimed for hers, and Jon was to be raised at Starfall in ignorance of his heritage and perfectly safe from the world because no-one would give a shit about some servant's brat. However, then Lord Stark arrived and claimed the bastard for his own, and took him away, and again, no-one gave a second thought to that except thinking that it was nice of him to act on his responsibility.

As I think of it, perhaps Jon was relocated immediately after he was born - as has been pointed out, ToJ hardly had facilities to attend to the needs of a newborn properly, and it was reasonable to assume that the location might have been compromised (depending on who their contact was, who informed Ned and if Ned was sent for or not). The original plan might have included relocating Lyanna, as well, but as her state didn't allow it, the KG had to stay as a decoy.

I really can't go with this one at all. GRRM was asked why the Kingsguard were at the Tower and he responded that it was because they were ordered to be there. I don't recall the precise wording but basically they had to obey Rhaegar on account of him being the Prince and second only to Aerys in the pecking order. That's fair enough and covers all eventualities, but one.

If we accept for the sake of argument that Jon is the uncrowned heir to the Targaryen throne then it is the Kingsguard's duty to protect him and we know that means at least one member in close attendance day and night. Yet at the Tower we find all three standing outside. OK there is an argument I'm not in agreement with that the circumstances demanded it - if Jon was inside, but surely surely if Jon was taken to Starfall for safety at least one of them must have gone with him.

[FrozenFire3]

I could be wrong but I don't think Ran's teaser is in any way related to R+L=J. TWoIaF is supposed to be a scholarly recount of the ASoIaF world's history, heraldry and lore presented as a book given to Robert the day he ascends to the throne. I can hardly imagine how any 'logistical detail' connected to the whole ToJ/Starfall/Jon scenario could be included in such a format :dunno:

My bet is on the blood magic/tampering the Valyrians implemented to 'bind' dragons. My old crackpot (and reprise) uncracking LOL

[Ygrain]

I really can't go with this one at all. GRRM was asked why the Kingsguard were at the Tower and he responded that it was because they were ordered to be there. I don't recall the precise wording but basically they had to obey Rhaegar on account of him being the Prince and second only to Aerys in the pecking order. That's fair enough and covers all eventualities, but one.

Yes, GRRM confirmed that if Rhaegar ordered them to stay back, they would obey. The question he answered did not enquire into the situation when Rhaegar was dead, so were Aerys and Aegon and Viserys was supposedly the next in the succession line, and they still stayed at ToJ. That last part is the one I was elaborating on.

If we accept for the sake of argument that Jon is the uncrowned heir to the Targaryen throne then it is the Kingsguard's duty to protect him and we know that means at least one member in close attendance day and night. Yet at the Tower we find all three standing outside. OK there is an argument I'm not in agreement with that the circumstances demanded it - if Jon was inside, but surely surely if Jon was taken to Starfall for safety at least one of them must have gone with him.

Can you show me the part of the vow that says so? Yes, that's the way it is usually done, but it is not the only way that they can protect the king.

Imagine this scenario: the king is protected by a single KG, in a tower with the only access via the bridge. There is a lever which can disconnect the bridge when the enemies are amass on it and send them into an abyss, but pulling the lever requires the KG to leave the king's presence. Would you argue that it is the KG's duty not to leave the king's side to go and get rid of the enemies?

As for the requirement that one of the KG would have to go with Jon to Starfall, I believe I have mentioned that briefly in the original post but perhaps I should elaborate.

Dayne, Whent and Hightower are notorious figures all around Westeros. If one of them turns up at Starfall, there is no way he would avoid detection, and as we know from Arianne, someone always tells. So, once the news reaches the wrong ears, the inevitable question arises: what is he doing there? At Starfall, he cannot pledge ignorance of Viserys' condition, and as a known paragon of honour, breaking the KG vow is not an option, either, and on top of it, he arrived in the company of a newborn. The guy who had been stashed away with Rhaegar's mistress...

Do I need to continue to show that the KG presence with Jon at Starfall would actually put him at risk instead of protecting him?

[The guy from the Vale]

I really can't go with this one at all. GRRM was asked why the Kingsguard were at the Tower and he responded that it was because they were ordered to be there. I don't recall the precise wording but basically they had to obey Rhaegar on account of him being the Prince and second only to Aerys in the pecking order. That's fair enough and covers all eventualities, but one.

If we accept for the sake of argument that Jon is the uncrowned heir to the Targaryen throne then it is the Kingsguard's duty to protect him and we know that means at least one member in close attendance day and night. Yet at the Tower we find all three standing outside. OK there is an argument I'm not in agreement with that the circumstances demanded it - if Jon was inside, but surely surely if Jon was taken to Starfall for safety at least one of them must have gone with him.

I agree with you on the Starfall part. JOn was in the tower; otherwise, there would not have been all three KG there,

And no, that was not GRRM's answer. But please let's not go there, I've had that particular discussion half a million times on this board. Let me just reaffirm that the GRRM quote in question never addresses the case of orders conflicting with the sworn duty of the KG, and that three KG at the ToJ means they could have split up to follow the orders and protect Viserys if they absolutely had to. They didn't, so apparently there was no need to have even one KG with Viserys... which can only be if Viserys was not the king.

[Ygrain]

I could be wrong but I don't think Ran's teaser is in any way related to R+L=J. TWoIaF is supposed to be a scholarly recount of the ASoIaF world's history, heraldry and lore presented as a book given to Robert the day he ascends to the throne. I can hardly imagine how any 'logistical detail' connected to the whole ToJ/Starfall/Jon scenario could be included in such a format :dunno:

My bet is on the blood magic/tampering the Valyrians implemented to 'bind' dragons. My old crackpot (and reprise) uncracking LOL

Hm... such a scholarly account might yield some missing pieces, though - recently, who was Aerion's wife and what happened with his son, the indentity of Lady Stark, Olenna Tyrell's Targaryen prince, some information about the events of Summerhall...

[Black Crow]

I agree with you on the Starfall part. JOn was in the tower; otherwise, there would not have been all three KG there,

That surely is the point. I don't for a moment for any reason to doubt that R+L=J is true, but it has always been argued that the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower is proof of Jon's legitimacy. Send him off to Starfall or anywhere else leaving all three Kingsgard at the Tower and that particular "proof" evaporates.

[The guy from the Vale]

That surely is the point. I don't for a moment for any reason to doubt that R+L=J is true, but it has always been argued that the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower is proof of Jon's legitimacy. Send him off to Starfall or anywhere else leaving all three Kingsgard at the Tower and that particular "proof" evaporates.

Agreed. I can even see the point for the KG to not enter Starfall (although he would absolutely need to be sure they wouldn't betray him, and Arthur at least could give other reasons besides his duty for appearing at his family's ancestral holdfast). But if that was the case, the KG in question still would need to be as close to Starfall as possible so in any kind of emergency, he'd be available immediately. I don't think the ToJ is quite close enough for that to be true.

[Ygrain]

Agreed. I can even see the point for the KG to not enter Starfall (although he would absolutely need to be sure they wouldn't betray him, and Arthur at least could give other reasons besides his duty for appearing at his family's ancestral holdfast). But if that was the case, the KG in question still would need to be as close to Starfall as possible so in any kind of emergency, he'd be available immediately. I don't think the ToJ is quite close enough for that to be true.

Look at it this way: which is the essential part - a KG hanging around Starfall just in case, or staying at ToJ preventing anyone from finding out that Lyanna had given birth?