R + L = J v 69

[Whatever]

You mean Mance Rayder, origin unknown, who was taken alive as a child by the Nights Watch from a "wildling raiding party"?

As he's described as a man in middle years that would fit with the War of the Ninepenny Kings 40 years back - and he does set some store by his cloak of red and black :cool4:

crackpot:

Mance Ryder is not a blackfire. Three-finger Hobb is B)

/crackpot

Also, ugh, y'all had me hoping for a minute. Instead it's just a guessing game, UGH.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes, and I'm sorry, that was abrupt, (working and lurking on my lunchbreak), yes, both have been theories that have been posited, but more the prior.

I tend to gravitate towards looking through historical and classical prisms, (though this is a work of fiction and the Author will tweak characters and outcomes), when trying to ferret out the direction the story is going.

And while I in no way compare Rhaegar with Henry VIII, (thats more Maegor the Cruel), Rhaegar did take measures to secure what he needed in terms of his heirs, and I don't even think what he did was extraoridnary given his time and his position.

If I had to make a comparison to a historical parallel, it might be more king John, (and again not an exact character match), who put aside his first wife for being barren to marry the king of France's niece, Isabella of Angoulume, whom John did also kidnap.

I've heard about both theories, and I'm just not sure what to think about it. People who believe Elia had switched Aegon prior to the Sack, have a problem with believing that Varys could have swapped Aegon. Both involve a baby swap, and Varys' has the best chance of succeeding, imo.

About Ashara... I don't know what to think. She was dishonered at Harrenhall, which lead many people to believe she got pregnant there. However, Barristan, who was in love with her and is most like to remember every single detail about her, remembers that Ashara had a stillbirth shortly before her death. It would be possible that Ashara got pregnant twice, but that would be too much guessing.

I think there are many parallels between asoiaf and real life events... GRRM has to draw inspiration from something :) But he can change every detail whenever he wants, which makes making predictions so much more difficult :)

It also doesn't help that I'm not very well informed with the War of the Roses and other such instances, :)

Ran said on twitter : There's a special pleasure in having a long-held theory confirmed. #TWoIaF #ASoIaF

This is very cruel of him.. Does anyone know a small list of long-held theories of Ran by any chance? :D

[Ser Creighton]

I've heard about both theories, and I'm just not sure what to think about it. People who believe Elia had switched Aegon prior to the Sack, have a problem with believing that Varys could have swapped Aegon. Both involve a baby swap, and Varys' has the best chance of succeeding, imo.

About Ashara... I don't know what to think. She was dishonered at Harrenhall, which lead many people to believe she got pregnant there. However, Barristan, who was in love with her and is most like to remember every single detail about her, remembers that Ashara had a stillbirth shortly before her death. It would be possible that Ashara got pregnant twice, but that would be too much guessing.

I think there are many parallels between asoiaf and real life events... GRRM has to draw inspiration from something :) But he can change every detail whenever he wants, which makes making predictions so much more difficult :)

It also doesn't help that I'm not very well informed with the War of the Roses and other such instances, :)

This is very cruel of him.. Does anyone know a small list of long-held theories of Ran by any chance? :D

Ran is big on some Dayne Theories, like Dawn is Lightbringer. But so far people are expecting it to be related to world building because the tag was for WoIaF, and Targs having Dragon blood is the most popular choice right now. Ran has been with the books sense the 90's so aa lot of his stuff is long held. It's a tough guess. Daynes as Proto Valyrians, though I thought Martin shot it down. Could be something to do with the Surprising Lannister ancestor. Notice we are getting little hints here and there for the world book? It's part of the publicity, I think, Ran would have had the info for awhile now, and they are going to start pumping up the book more and more as it gets closer to the release date, if there is one.

[Whatever]

This is very cruel of him.. Does anyone know a small list of long-held theories of Ran by any chance? :D

Is a 'logistic detail' that confirms a theory, and it's also to do with the World guide rather than the next book. People are guessing something about Valyrian blood.

ETA: also, this great line

Actually, it would be hysterical if R+L=J was revealed through this supplemental book. I hope that's what happens.

Me, I laughed like a crazy person back when Brandon Sanderson and TeamJordan pulled Asmodean on us so... yep, hilarious. I'd love it.

[Alia of the knife]

Ran is big on some Dayne Theories, like Dawn is Lightbringer. But so far people are expecting it to be related to world building because the tag was for WoIaF, and Targs having Dragon blood is the most popular choice right now. Ran has been with the books sense the 90's so aa lot of his stuff is long held. It's a tough guess. Daynes as Proto Valyrians, though I thought Martin shot it down. Could be something to do with the Surprising Lannister ancestor. Notice we are getting little hints here and there for the world book? It's part of the publicity, I think, Ran would have had the info for awhile now, and they are going to start pumping up the book more and more as it gets closer to the release date, if there is one.

I would really like it if he would get around to the Starks and their backstory.

[J. Stargaryen]

Per the "logistical detail" tweet, I'm reminded that Ran thinks Ned picked Jon up from Starfall, not the ToJ. I'm not sure if that is the type of information we could expect to find in the World book though.

ETA: "It's a logistical detail connected to a popular theory." - @westerosorg

[Ser Creighton]

I would really like it if he would get around to the Starks and their backstory.

Really I would take anything at this point. I don't know any of his theories on the Starks, save for Jon. But they are plot driven and this may be world building and looks that way. But who knows. But it could be Starks have Targ blood. I mean that fits into world building but I don't know if it is a theory he follows. You can go check his page he probably only has 10-20 thousand threads he has posted under.

[Ser Creighton]

Per the "logistical detail" tweet, I'm reminded that Ran thinks Ned picked Jon up from Starfall, not the ToJ. I'm not sure if that is the type of information we could expect to find in the World book though.

ETA: "It's a logistical detail connected to a popular theory." - @westerosorg

It sort of fits a grey area doesn't it? Like it could be a major plot point, but in Westeros it may be common knowledge. Cause in Westeros that is where Jon got picked up from, well at least according to rumor. Now if it's confirmed he is at the Tower that would be huge news. But Starfall is already a plot point. As part of history it could be either and those could be in the World book, but I can't see Martin letting that cat out of the bag for the WoIaF.

[Whatever]

Per the "logistical detail" tweet, I'm reminded that Ran thinks Ned picked Jon up from Starfall, not the ToJ. I'm not sure if that is the type of information we could expect to find in the World book though.

ETA: "It's a logistical detail connected to a popular theory." - @westerosorg

this would be a huge plot point if it were true.

[Alia of the knife]

Now, this is peculiar. He had an infant son who was in the succession line for the throne, i.e. no bastard, but it is not stated whom he married - I doubt his wife was a Blackfyre because it would have been mentioned somewhere by now. However, the wiki states that he may have fathered some bastards in Lys, and who was from Lys? Serra.

Oh, BTW: how do we know that the male Blackfyre line is extinct? We know that the last official descendant was Maelys, but can we be so sure that there were no other, hidden offspring?

Now Serra being his descendent and if she is YG mother, i.e., Septa Lemore, that definitely puts her in the running for "Margaret Beaufort." :cool4:

[Faceless Weirwood]

Well actually they are inherently unwargable, you have to look at the magic. Remember Dragons, the wall, warging, the Others are all magic. So much of the books is around politics and human nature that they forget about the magic to often.

Magic comes in three forms in Westeros. Fire, Ice and Nature. Warging is nature and not inherently compatible with Ice or fire. 3, stars, that 3 colors have been symbolic of this magic. The green star from Dunk and egg, go look at the scene again, look at Dunks sigil. The red star or comet, and the blue star of the celestial bodied dragon. And the balance is off, The children used to dominate Westeros, not a lot of fire or ice. But the first men came killed a lot of them. The balance became off set, nature became week. So ice magic began to overwhelm and the Others came. Then came the long night. Darkness, it's a yin yang concept. But along comes light bringer the natural counter balance to darkness, and was joined with the children and they overwhelmed the Others. So the children had gotten weaker again and the Others had gotten weak, nature and Ice are out of balance now. So the rise fire, Valyria. Then fire starts to take over the world, but something destroys Valyria. Probably the children using the crazy powerful weapon they use. So the children are weak, the others are weak and the Dragons are weak, cause some survived. A sort of balance was struck.

But about 100 years ago the dragons died. The reason they were sick and weak towards the end is because the comet comes and goes.

But it's back, but fire is still weak because it's source is only three young dragons. 3 sources of magic exist but two are weak. The children are dying off, and fire has only three young dragons. Magic gets gets stronger around certain sources, the Dragons, the Wall and the Children. Those are the three sources of magic in the world.

As green magic is nature magic, it is tied to nature. You notice none of the Wargs have warged an Ice creature either. But that doesn't make it impossible, because the 3 colors seek unity. Mel is stronger at the wall she can't do Ice magic, but she can feel the magic. People have stated there magic is greater around the dragons. These are sources of power. What happens when red light, blue light, and green light over lap in balanced amounts? You get white light. But it does something else when red, blue and green are mixed outside of light it creates black.

In order for Jon to warg a dragon, he needs the fire within him or he will burn. In order for Jon to Warg ice he needs the ice within him, and warging is green magic is already part of him. Not on Brans level but it is part of him. A person must become all three in order to bring the light. Martin picked those colors for a reason and symbolized the magic with them. It's not 4 types of magic or 5, it's 3. 3 that make one.

Speculation, I don't think you can warg a dragon till the fire is with in you. It's two different types of magic, and the person has to be connected to them to use it. You know there is a reason that within a person these magics represent different aspects. Green is nature and magic of the mind, Red is fire and magic of the soul or energy notice how it brings people back. Blue magic is Ice the body, hard, frozen. Fire on the inside, ice on the outside. It's not about ice and fire there are 3 magics. The children are called singers, Song of Ice and Fire. Well it's my best guess anyway.

That is some good information. But it seems and this is only speculation, that Jon would be all three, like you say green magic; warg, red magic; blood of dragons, blue magic; he was raised a Stark & only knows ice (and just hasn't tapped into it yet?), it seems that dragons would recognise dragon people, (Targ, Blackfyre whatever) so possibly the dragon would be willing? I don't really know it has been a while since i read the books & it feels like there isn't going to be enough time in the next 2 books to go into Jon warging out all over the place, but it would be sick.

That's all possible, but I think we lack actual textual evidence to know just about anything about the wargability of dragons. The fact that the old Valyrians kept away from Westeros, and that we have never seen dragons being used against First Men armies, means that there's no precedent either way - and I tend to think that's intentional. So far, all we know is that the dragons have the mental capacity of dogs - and that dogs are easily wargable.

Yes they do seem to have a small mental capacity, but was it with Varymyr Sixskins you learn that the more eccentric the creature, the more difficult to warg? I dunno probably won't happen haha.

[Alia of the knife]

Per the "logistical detail" tweet, I'm reminded that Ran thinks Ned picked Jon up from Starfall, not the ToJ. I'm not sure if that is the type of information we could expect to find in the World book though.

ETA: "It's a logistical detail connected to a popular theory." - @westerosorg

For many reasons, I have always leaned towards Jon being at Starfall, not just for health reasons.

Really I would take anything at this point. I don't know any of his theories on the Starks, save for Jon. But they are plot driven and this may be world building and looks that way. But who knows. But it could be Starks have Targ blood. I mean that fits into world building but I don't know if it is a theory he follows. You can go check his page he probably only has 10-20 thousand threads he has posted under.

Well yeah, there are ALOT of missing links in the Stark family tree, particulary the Stark wives and where they came from.

[Ser Creighton]

For many reasons, I have always leaned towards Jon being at Starfall, not just for health reasons.

Well yeah, there are ALOT of missing links in the Stark family tree, particulary the Stark wives and where they came from.

Your leaning towards Jon being at Starfall? That a girl, this will probably drive you to change your opinion, but I like it.

Stark and Dayne family trees go hand in hand in the wtf category. Daynes I can understand so far not having that big of a part of the books. But the Starks? One of the two biggest families in the books and we have a ton of the Targs family tree. Martin has to be keeping it a secret for a reason. I always found the Daynes being odd because we don't even have the names of Edric's parents, neither of them. Lucky for us we may get the WoIaF this year, might.

Either way it fits my own theories, so I am hoping to be happy this year. Starks with Targ blood, Targs with dragon blood, Jon at Starfall.

[J. Stargaryen]

this would be a huge plot point if it were true.

Not necessarily. The big picture would still look the same, as far as I can tell. Some of the details might be different.

[Whatever]

Not necessarily. The big picture would still look the same, as far as I can tell. Some of the details might be different.

How so? I mean, how does Ned having picked up Jon at Starfall fit in with the R+L theory?

[J. Stargaryen]

How so? I mean, how does Ned having picked up Jon at Starfall fit in with the R+L theory?

Ran's theory is that Jon was moved to Starfall because of Lyanna's fever, as a precaution.

[Alia of the knife]

Your leaning towards Jon being at Starfall? That a girl, this will probably drive you to change your opinion, but I like it.

Stark and Dayne family trees go hand in hand in the wtf category. Daynes I can understand so far not having that big of a part of the books. But the Starks? One of the two biggest families in the books and we have a ton of the Targs family tree. Martin has to be keeping it a secret for a reason. I always found the Daynes being odd because we don't even have the names of Edric's parents, neither of them. Lucky for us we may get the WoIaF this year, might.

Either way it fits my own theories, so I am hoping to be happy this year. Starks with Targ blood, Targs with dragon blood, Jon at Starfall.

Yes, I mean I never doubted he was born in the TOJ, but I always questioned if he would have stayed there given Lyannas deteriorating condition.

And in terms of Stark with Targ. blood, it is an interesting dialogue between Ned and Robert about their claims. On the one hand it could have been about conquest, but even then, Robert still had the better claim because he was perceived to be the "winner," even if he was injured during the better part of the of the war and Ned did all the strategizing.

Or, were they talking purely about a blood claim where Ned might have had a little, but Robert had a lot?

(There is a theory out there that perhaps Edwyles wife may have been a Targaryen) :cool4:

Ran's theory is that Jon was moved to Starfall because of Lyanna's fever, as a precaution.

Completely agree with this.

Even if Lyannas infection/fever wasn't contagious, that isn't something they would have known then. And the KG can still be honoring their oath to him as king even as Selmy was trying to honor his oath to Aerys on the battlefield.

[Whatever]

Ran's theory is that Jon was moved to Starfall because of Lyanna's fever, as a precaution.

Can I have a link to it, please?

I actually never happened on it before - how would it work, timeline-wise? Jon was born within a month of the Sack, given or taken, but I'd always thought he was born a month after - it made the most sense, with Lyanna's death being a direct consequence of childbirth; otherwise she must have been sick for weeks before dying, which seems kind of unrealistic - hanging on just until Ned arrived.

Also, how does the theory explain the KS at the tower - all of them? And it seems really odd to move a child that small.

I hope I'm not being annoying with the questions, but it's interesting to find I theory I haven't ever read after years of the same things *me curious*.

[Alia of the knife]

I've heard about both theories, and I'm just not sure what to think about it. People who believe Elia had switched Aegon prior to the Sack, have a problem with believing that Varys could have swapped Aegon. Both involve a baby swap, and Varys' has the best chance of succeeding, imo.

About Ashara... I don't know what to think. She was dishonered at Harrenhall, which lead many people to believe she got pregnant there. However, Barristan, who was in love with her and is most like to remember every single detail about her, remembers that Ashara had a stillbirth shortly before her death. It would be possible that Ashara got pregnant twice, but that would be too much guessing.

I think there are many parallels between asoiaf and real life events... GRRM has to draw inspiration from something :) But he can change every detail whenever he wants, which makes making predictions so much more difficult :)

It also doesn't help that I'm not very well informed with the War of the Roses and other such instances, :)

This is very cruel of him.. Does anyone know a small list of long-held theories of Ran by any chance? :D

True, and if the Author draws upon those historical themes, they will not be exact, but a hybrid of different historical influences.

In terms of baby swaps, I believe less is best and to keep it simple, :dunce: so I'm not necessarily a fan of those theories beyond the two that we have like Jon himself, (which isn't a swap really, but a hidden idenity), and Mances son, which I think is deliberate on the part of Martin so that Jon has a reference point when he finds out about Neds deception.

His swapping Mances son almost screams to me that when Jon finds out, he won't take the news well, and perhaps be angry at Ned hence the need for someone, (Samwell), to point out that he did the same thing for the same reasons.

(Maybe we'll see the same initial degree of stubborn anger that Dany displays when Selmy tries to tell her about Ned trying to save her). ;)

As for the War of the Roses, and similar themes in aSoIaF:

From Shakespeares Richard III:

"We will unite the white rose and the red.

Smile heaven upon this fair conjunction, That long have frown'd upon their enmity!

What traitor hears me, and says not amen?

England hath long been mad, and scarr'd herself;

The brother blindly shed the brother's blood,

The father rashly slaughter'd his own son,

The son, compell'd, been butcher to the sire:

All this divided York and Lancaster,

Divided in their dire division,

O, now, let Richmond and Elizabeth,

The true succeeders of each royal house,

By God's fair ordinance conjoin together!

And let their heirs, God, if thy will be so.

Enrich the time to come with smooth-faced peace, With smiling plenty and fair prosperous days!

Abate the edge of traitors, gracious Lord, That would reduce these bloody days again,

And make poor England weep in streams of blood! Let them not live to taste this land's increase That would with treason wound this fair land's peace!

Now civil wounds are stopp'd, peace lives again:

That she may long live here, God say amen!" - Shakespeare

[Ser Creighton]

Yes, I mean I never doubted he was born in the TOJ, but I always questioned if he would have stayed there given Lyannas deteriorating condition.

And in terms of Stark with Targ. blood, it is an interesting dialogue between Ned and Robert about their claims. On the one hand it could have been about conquest, but even then, Robert still had the better claim because he was perceived to be the "winner," even if he was injured during the better part of the of the war and Ned did all the strategizing.

Or, were they talking purely about a blood claim where Ned might have had a little, but Robert had a lot?

(There is a theory out there that perhaps Edwyles wife may have been a Targaryen) :cool4:

Completely agree with this.

Even if Lyannas infection/fever wasn't contagious, that isn't something they would have known then. And the KG can still be honoring their oath to him as king even as Selmy was trying to honor his oath to Aerys on the battlefield.

Yeah I know about the Stark with Targ blood theory, and the thing is it is the easiest thing in the world for the author to introduce as none of the trees are set. I am just kind of surprised it is being passed around again. Last time I tried to talk about people got all kinds of upset about it. I always thought it made perfect sense. I think who the Stark and Targ were doesn't matter much, just rather it happened. Though I don't recall an Edwyles theory, then again I could of written an Edwyles theory and I probably wouldn't remember it these days. You got the basics or link to the theory?