Mr Smith Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Whatever their flaws, Aerys' Kinsguard were still sadly superior to what came after. If their crime was looking and doing nothing, that crime was shared by Barristan's and Jaime's KG. Jaime's KG also claim the crime of beating up a young girl in violation of the code of chivalry, and their Lord Commander is the worst of all - a would-be child murderer who had no interest in protecting the royal house and who was ready to see a needless war fought rather than restrain his own desires. Jaime didn't just look the other way, he was actively working against his king and prepared to murder innocents to cover up his treason or just for petty vengeance. IMO, he forfeited any right to claim moral superiority over Aerys' KG when his response to a conflict of oaths was to abandon the idea of even trying to bother with justice or moments of selflessness. Now post-ASOS he's ignoring the need to reform the KG and admit his own role in its current state. He could resign and give a stainless man the chance to rebuild the KG if he truly cared about it. Instead, due to his pride and selfishness, Jaime thinks that he can somehow recover his honour and keep on being LC to his bastard son without that being a taint on the institution. We don't know what Aerys' KG thought about what was going on, yet they're judged as monsters and many posters are very sure not one of them would have chosen King's Landing over Aerys (a crime on an entirely different scale than the king's previous ones), which serves to prop up Jaime even though he too did nothing about Aerys before the wildfire threat. On the other hand, when Ned finds Jaime sitting on the throne, having turned on his king at the very last minute and at a time when his father's men were sacking the city and brutally murdering Rhaegar's family, and Jaime doesn't bother to offer any explanation of his actions, Ned is somehow wronging Jaime in a terrible manner. It's Jaime's own fault. Why didn't he do anything to protect the innocent before that, when he could have killed Aerys at any moment (at the probable cost of his life... well, Brienne defended the innocent even in that situation)? If he cared about the innocent, why didn't he tell about the wildfire? There's no excuse for Jaime endangering the city for the sake of his own hurt pride and sense of disillusionment. The thing I always find is largely discounted in regards to Jaime and his attitude towards Aerys and his Kingsguard is his age. Jaime was seventeen when all this occurred, and thoroughly disillusioned by what to him was the disregard of every value associated with Knighthood. Jaime is still a kid, and incredibly upset by what he is seeing from the men he held up as the shining examples of perfect knighthood. I think your argument that Jaime's actions following the death of Aerys makes him worse than Kingsguard such as the White Bull, Dayne, Selmy etc is kind of redundant; it goes no way to excuse the action, or rather inaction, of Aerys' Kingsguard, which was inexcusable by any standards. They have not only refused to do anything, they have rationalised their own inaction: the White Bull's "you are charged with guarding him, not judging him" is ample proof of that. These are grown men who, whatever else they may be, are knights who, by their very oaths, understand the difference between right and wrong. Jaime, meanwhile, is a boy who is watching every value he has ever held be challenged by the most powerful man in his world. He is a frightened adolescent, struggling to mentally reconcile a situation in which he is vastly out of his depth. His eventual murder of Aerys is in effect the breaking point, where the mental argument has seen the scales tip irrevocably to one side. Can you honestly blame him for slipping into a brooding and vengeful man, disillusioned by the vows he has seen with his own eyes to hold no sway over men he believed much better knights than himself? Jaime suppresses any sense of honour and righteousness he had as a result of the incongruity he experiences in his youth. Fast forward to the end of ASOS, and Jaime has seen for the first time in his life an example of true knightly honour (in Brienne). I don't consider his attempt to regain some honour for himself as selfish or arrogant, but rather the desperate, and indeed very brave attempt to try and repair the psychological damage his past has caused him, and in doing so, free himself from the disillusioned suppression of his sense of right and wrong. While Jaime is far from morally sound, the effect of his youthful experiences go quite a way to explaining the majority of his adult life up to where we first truly meet him in ASOS. But here's a question for you. Jaime is plainly disdainful of Kingsguard members such as the White Bull, and their blind obedience in the face of heinous crimes against the innocent. But why does he not heap the same condemnation on the likes of Ser Arthur Dayne, who he instead praises as the ideal knight? There is serious incongruity here, and whether it is the result of further evidence of Jaime's damaged psyche coming in the form of unreliable narration, or whether Dayne has done something to deserve separation from the rest of Aerys' Kingsguard and their inaction, deserves further discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Golden Wolf Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 ^Mormont thankyou! you stated my thoughts exactly. :bowdown: :bowdown: Also people are acting like Aerys was a mad murderous king for 20 or so years. he was an okay king from 262AL-276AL.Duskendale broke him. and 5 years was the reign of insane Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy the Ruin Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 You should add Jon in your list but I agree. The fishy thing about Arthur I believe that is the fact that he covered up his survival.Thats why I like you JQC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Golden Wolf Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 The thing I always find is largely discounted in regards to Jaime and his attitude towards Aerys and his Kingsguard is his age. Jaime was seventeen when all this occurred, and thoroughly disillusioned by what to him was the disregard of every value associated with Knighthood. Jaime is still a kid, and incredibly upset by what he is seeing from the men he held up as the shining examples of perfect knighthood. I think your argument that Jaime's actions following the death of Aerys makes him worse than Kingsguard such as the White Bull, Dayne, Selmy etc is kind of redundant; it goes no way to excuse the action, or rather inaction, of Aerys' Kingsguard, which was inexcusable by any standards. They have not only refused to do anything, they have rationalised their own inaction: the White Bull's "you are charged with guarding him, not judging him" is ample proof of that. These are grown men who, whatever else they may be, are knights who, by their very oaths, understand the difference between right and wrong. Jaime, meanwhile, is a boy who is watching every value he has ever held be challenged by the most powerful man in his world. He is a frightened adolescent, struggling to mentally reconcile a situation in which he is vastly out of his depth. His eventual murder of Aerys is in effect the breaking point, where the mental argument has seen the scales tip irrevocably to one side. Can you honestly blame him for slipping into a brooding and vengeful man, disillusioned by the vows he has seen with his own eyes to hold no sway over men he believed much better knights than himself? Jaime suppresses any sense of honour and righteousness he had as a result of the incongruity he experiences in his youth. Fast forward to the end of ASOS, and Jaime has seen for the first time in his life an example of true knightly honour (in Brienne). I don't consider his attempt to regain some honour for himself as selfish or arrogant, but rather the desperate, and indeed very brave attempt to try and repair the psychological damage his past has caused him, and in doing so, free himself from the disillusioned suppression of his sense of right and wrong. While Jaime is far from morally sound, the effect of his youthful experiences go quite a way to explaining the majority of his adult life up to where we first truly meet him in ASOS. But here's a question for you. Jaime is plainly disdainful of Kingsguard members such as the White Bull, and their blind obedience in the face of heinous crimes against the innocent. But why does he not heap the same condemnation on the likes of Ser Arthur Dayne, who he instead praises as the ideal knight? There is serious incongruity here, and whether it is the result of further evidence of Jaime's damaged psyche coming in the form of unreliable narration, or whether Dayne has done something to deserve separation from the rest of Aerys' Kingsguard and their inaction, deserves further discussion. I agree that Jaime's young age when being appointed a member of the Kingsguard did lead to some shattering of his preconceived notions of what the institution stood for and was like, but here is the thing Jaime joined for all the wrong reasons. out of all the Kingsguard members we are introduced to we only ever get one's motivations for joining the Kingsguard and that is Jaime. we do not know any of the internal reasons other members of Aerys' Kings guard took up service so we can not say with certainty that it was out of some vainglorious need for recognition and prestige. But who do we know that did join for honor and prestige? Jaime. From the moment Aerys offered him the position Jaime only though of the recognition and prestige it would bring to his name. Why? because it would be something of his own doing and not based upon his father's name and house Lannister. But even then he had his doubts for he clearly recognized that compared to all the other members of Aerys' Kingsguard he had accomplished nothing of note. but still the lure was strong. So what pushed him into that white cloak? Two things contributed to him accepting the cloak. one was the fact that Tywin Explicitly told Jaime that Aerys only offered him the position to spite Tywin by taking his precious heir. this did not sit well with Jaime as he believed that he had been chosen on his own merit and he chafed under Tywin's domineering control of his life. He had been brought up to be the future Lord of House Lannister and being a common knight was beneath him, or so said his father. Ever since Joanna died Tywin only saw his children as tools for the betterment of House Lannister's reputation and their own dreams be damned. So even though he knew deep down in his heart that he did not belong there, that his father was right, he still accepted the offer for his own selfish reasons. The second thing that contributed to Jaime joining the Kingsguard was Cersie. She convinced him that by joining the Kingsguard they would be able to continue their illicit affair in Kingslanding even though she was being supposedly groomed to be the future queen and as a member of the Kingsguard Jaime was sworn to a vow of celibacy. this is triple damning as he was not just breaking of vow of celibacy but also committing incest, and if Cersie had been made queen, he would have been committing adultery with the Queen! unfortunately for Jaime as soon as he accepted the cloak Tywin left the position of Hand of the King and took Cersie back to Casterly Rock with him. So while Jaime boohoos about how being a member of the Kingsguard did not live up to his expectations and people are going around condemning Aerys' Kingsguard as men who only cared about their honor were not true knights, do not forget that Jaime never had honorable intentions in joining the Kingsguard. so do not pity him. Also I still say Ned wanted to Kill Aerys himself with Ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Howell Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 The hypocrisy of a knight's vows has been pointed out a great deal by characters in-universe. I think the general consensus is that very few knights actually keep to the code to the letter. Most regular knights either ignore their vows or pick and choose which ones they follow and which ones they don't. With King's Guard, I'm sure that a decent portion of them strayed from a few vows at one point, but I think the fact that one of their vows--the one to serve and obey the King--kind of has that underlying threat of death if you don't keep it gets pretty much all of them to keep that one. I mean, with the others, no one can do to much to you if you break the vow. King's Guard have had mistresses, visited whore houses, I'm sure a few had daddy-issues, and I would put money on a lot of them not protecting the weak (most likely from the royal family, but still). I don't think any King's Guard has been punished for breaking any of those vows before. But if you disobey the King, especially a cruel or mad one...I think it's pretty much an unspoken rule what would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Hand of the King Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 don't matter everyone still recognized him as one. This is a guy who still attacked a prince of royal blood despite knowing the consequences, hell he went against a man who hired him because it was right. I would not be surprised if dunk went a cut the cord around Brandon throat and tell aerys he wasn't being a good king. I tend to agree with you. Baelor Breakspear also took the "Jaime route", when he fought for Dunk. As the OP quoted Baelor states that Dunk protected the weak as all men must. As far as I'm concerned Dunk and Baelor are two of the better people in the entire ASOIAF series. Its funny that Jaime is considered this horrible person for killing Aerys, when he may have been a better person than the "honorable" KG members such as Hightower, Dayne, Darry, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I don't really think any Kingsguard can be a true knight, when they swear vows to the king they throw away their vows regarding the weak and innocent. My picks for truest knights would be Baelor Breakspear and Duncan the Tall, Davos would be a runner up and Brienne exemplifies much of the code of chivalry, though she is not a knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleFinger Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Lord Beric Dondarrion (zombie version) seems like a pretty close to "true knight." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 As someone above me said, if you're a KG serving a madman like Aerys, do you follow his orders and dishonour yourself, of disobey his orders and dishonour yourself? Aerys' KG were in a lose lose situation, cut them some slack. But in my personal opinion, KG vows > Knightly vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Henry IV and Roger Mortimer and Isabella rapidly came to the conclusion that Richard II and Edward II had to be disposed of ( though Edward possibly escaped). Deposing a king and leaving him alive is like wounding a tiger, without finishing it off.Having read Kathryn Warner's outstanding blog about Edward II, I realise I may have unjustly maligned Isabella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Because feudal obligation trumps general chivalry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I agree with the OP that the KG is a corrupt organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted September 21, 2014 Author Share Posted September 21, 2014 Duncan the Tall, Davos would be a runner up The funny thing is that those two might not be knights after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 The funny thing is that those two might not be knights after all. How? Dunc was a knight, I understand how you might think he wasn't, but he was. But what about Davos? He was knighted by a Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted September 25, 2014 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 How? Dunc was a knight, I understand how you might think he wasn't, but he was. But what about Davos? He was knighted by a Lord. Dunk was most definitely not knighted. I had forgotten that Stannis had knighted Davos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvd10 Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Turns out ser Jaime Lannister was the true knight. He saved 500000 people. He saved the innocent, he choosed their lives above his own honor. Barristan Selmy did not do a thing to end the tyranny of Aerys, his own damn honor was more important to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Turns out ser Jaime Lannister was the true knight. He saved 500000 people. He saved the innocent, he choosed their lives above his own honor. Barristan Selmy did not do a thing to end the tyranny of Aerys, his own damn honor was more important to him. Is that really fair? Barristan, after all, didn't know about the wildfire plot. And up until the final crisis, Jaime didn't do anything to stop Aerys' tyranny either. Now, Jaime was a kid and Barristan an adult, so it's not a like-for-like comparison. But still, this seems to be a 20/20 hindsight assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvd10 Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Is that really fair? Barristan, after all, didn't know about the wildfire plot. And up until the final crisis, Jaime didn't do anything to stop Aerys' tyranny either. Now, Jaime was a kid and Barristan an adult, so it's not a like-for-like comparison. But still, this seems to be a 20/20 hindsight assessment. I have to admit that I am a bit biased (Lannister fanboy :P), but Barristan knew Aerys, he knew he was mad and he probably knew Aerys could potentially do something like burning a whole city. All Barristan did was hiding behind a white cloak. He atleast could have helped Rhaegar in the plot to depose Aerys. He even could have let Aerys die in Duskendale and probably not many people would have blamed him since it was a very risky operation. EDIT: Nevermind about the duskendale part, Aerys reign was OK until Duskendale, but still, 7 years of burning people alive and all those great kingsguard knights kept hiding behind their cloaks and their vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 I have to admit that I am a bit biased (Lannister fanboy :P), but Barristan knew Aerys, he knew he was mad and he probably knew Aerys could potentially do something like burning a whole city. So he's morally culpable for failing to stop the wildfire plot because he probably knew Aerys could potentially do something like that? Come on. That's some weak stuff right there. He atleast could have helped Rhaegar in the plot to depose Aerys. Di he even know about it, at the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Turns out ser Jaime Lannister was the true knight. He saved 500000 people. He saved the innocent, he choosed their lives above his own honor. Barristan Selmy did not do a thing to end the tyranny of Aerys, his own damn honor was more important to him. It wasn't some heroic sacrifice, he saved his own life as well. And it's not as if Jaime and Barry were presented with the same choice - at the critical moment, Jaime was in the capital, while Barry wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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