redtree Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I know many love the Starks or think that they are bland. So let's give score to each of their action.Nobility factor : honorable, smart, kindness, bravery, wise actionStupidity factor : foolish, ill-considered, recklesness, not thinking aheadMax total point of both are 100, i'll start Ned Taking Hand PositionNobility/Stupidity : 80/20Why : He was really motivated because he wanted to solve Jon Arryn's alleged murder so that's good for him.Downside is he's going blind not knowing just rough KL politic world is. It also doesn't look like to me that he wanted to adapt Catelyn Arrested TyrionNobility/Stupidity : 30/70Why : Yes she has valid reason to arrest him but she lacks of strong proof. Moreover she didn't give heads up to Riverrun and other Riverland house so destruction is unavoidable. And does she really have clear goals with this action? Catelyn Took Tyrion to ValeNobility/Stupidity : 60/40Why : Smart move, eyrie is difficult to impregnated. But see above, she forgot the heads up Ned told Cersei that he knowsNobility/Stupidity : 0/100Why : Hey watch out i'm gonna stab you so keep still !! Really ned? This is one dumbass move. It's good that he wants to protect the kids, but HE KNOWS how ruthless the Lannister is but still he push that aside. HE KNOWS than Jon Arryn died because of this and he didn't learn anything from it Cat Gave Tyrion A TrialNobility/Stupidity : 50/50Why : This is not only her but on Lysa too. Tyrion played them and he won Robb Declared King of the North and RiverlandNobility/Stupidity : 80/20Why : I feel like this is exactly what i would do if i were him, grab my own crown when war errupted in every side. Plus the Tyrell were fighting the lannister too so future looks good. Downside, it would be more dutiful to join Stannis Cat Negotiate with Walder FreyNobility/Stupidity : 40/60Why : Its his stronghold so negotiation couldn't be avoided but i blame Cat's shitty negotiation skill. He simply asked for too much and she granted it Robb Married JeyneNobility/Stupidity : 0/100Why : He would dishonor himself either way but in the end he chose his pants. No nobility factor for him Cat released JaimeNobility/Stupidity : 20/80Why : She was severely depressed and desperate so i might spare her a little. From my pov this action is based purely on emotion without much logical calculation. There's absolutely 0% assurance that Jaime will keep his word. I wouldn't trust a Lannister if i were Cat Total : 360/540 What's your take ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Not Appearing Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 This is interesting. I don't think you are offbase but I'm going to copy the situations and cut your ratings then let it sit for awhile so I forget what you had. Then I'll see how closely we align. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Ned Taking Hand PositionNobility/Stupidity : 100/00Why : He took the job for the right reasons and tried to get back to what the King and Hand should do-spread justice. It also increases his family standing among the Kingdoms and strengthens his and Roberts position Catelyn Arrested TyrionNobility/Stupidity : 30/70Why : Agreed Catelyn Took Tyrion to ValeNobility/Stupidity : 70/30Why : Smart move, eyrie should support her in her effort (Lysas just too crazy). Should have alerted more though and kept better control of Tyrion Ned told Cersei that he knowsNobility/Stupidity : 80/20Why : Ya it's stupid but the children (Tommen and Myrcella) are completely innocent. One of Neds defining characterisitcs is his protection of innocent people, especially children. It's about as noble as you get. Not very clever though as he could have done things differently-get his kids out, take Cersei prisoner and protect Tom and Myr etc Cat Gave Tyrion A TrialNobility/Stupidity : 50/50Why : Agreed with OP Robb Declared King of the North and RiverlandNobility/Stupidity : 80/20Why : I agree with the OP but for different reasons. Robb was proclaimed King, so it's very hard to say no without losing support and lowering the morale of your army (not great during a war to the death). Stannis hadn't put himself out there as an alternative so he isn't a factor and Robb couldn't bow to Joff. He negotiated with Renly as King. Slightly stupid as it reduces his power to form alliances Cat Negotiate with Walder FreyNobility/Stupidity : 70/30Why : True Walder got a lot but Robb killed 11000 soldiers by this deal and gained the Riverlands Robb Married JeyneNobility/Stupidity : 30/70Why: Terribly dumb thing to do but Robb was in love and didn't want to father a bastard. He deflowered a girl and stuck by her-pretty noble. Overall: 510/290 I guess this reflects my overall feelings on the Starks. Is Ned as clever as Tywin? Not at all. But how long did Ned last in KL? And how long did Tywin last? Fairly similar. The Starks are full of good intentions and this generation are a noble and honorable bunch mostly, even if the cost of this nobility sometimes leads to stupid actions. Then again I would prefer to be noble and less clever, then clever and a bad person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boar of Gore Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Robb Married Jeyne Nobility/Stupidity : 0/100 Why : He would dishonor himself either way but in the end he chose his pants. No nobility factor for him I feel like the lone voice crying in the wilderness here, but Robb did not choose 'his pants'. He married for love, and to do right by the girl he slept with. Anyone still remember that expression 'do right by her'? 'Do the right thing by her and marry her'? Anyone? Anyone at all? (That's called 'being honourable' by the way). And there was also the matter of falling in love, young and innocent and falling for someone you sleep with. A natural and instinctive thing. Is everybody, even teenagers, nowadays so experienced sexually, they can't relate to this at all? Everybody has disconnected sex from their emotions completely? Everybody?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I feel like the lone voice crying in the wilderness here, but Robb did not choose 'his pants'. He married for love, and to do right by the girl he slept with. Your not alone any more buddy :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Not to spoil fun, but nobility = intelligence, and nobility is not opposite of stupidity... So, these scales, IMO, needs a bit adjustment. You can't say something is done nobly when you argue it is done intelligently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightstar_ Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Well there really isn't a seperation between their "stupid" acts and "noble' acts. Pretty much all of their actions are stupid precisely because they are being too noble . Edit: I should add that of course not ALL of their actions are stupid, I meant the ones that are questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Not Appearing Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 snipYou should add Cat releasing Jaime, btw. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Well there really isn't a seperation between their "stupid" acts and "noble' acts. Pretty much all of their actions are stupid precisely because they are being too noble . :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightstar_ Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 You should add Cat releasing Jaime, btw. Just my opinion.If we follow the OP rules, that wasn't honorable nor was it smart. So it doesn't count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRX1985 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 there is a reason the saying Death before Dishonor is so popular. Ya the Starks may have acted "stupidly" in hindsight, but hindsight is always 20/20. They did everything they did because it was the right thing to do. They paid the ultimate price, sure. But do you think if they could do it over again, they would do anything differently? The only thing that Robb did that was completely stupid and without any bearing was leaving the North. He should of declared himself king and made Tywin go up and get him, especially after he captured Jaime. He could of sat in the North with his base of power (Winterfell) intact and held out at the Neck. This would of gave him more bargaining power as Tywin would have known going up to the North would be suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbunting Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Ned Taking Hand Position Nobility/Stupidity : 90/10 Why : His best friend, basically a brother, who happens to be King is asking him to take the 2nd highest position in the Kingdom. In theory it betters his family’s position long term. The stupid part is only here because he knew something was fishy before leaving, but it’s not like he could have changed his mind.` Catelyn Arrested Tyrion Nobility/Stupidity : 10/90 Why : She wasn’t acting out of nobility she was acting out of rage and anger. (I would have done the same if not more). Catelyn Took Tyrion to Vale Nobility/Stupidity : 50/50 Why : Made sense because she thought her sister would back her, but it also drew her into danger. Ned told Cersei that he knows Nobility/Stupidity : 95/5 Why : It was done so the children would not die, that is the meaning of being noble to me. Stupid because she is treacherous and he had very few people to truly trust at KL Cat Gave Tyrion A Trial Nobility/Stupidity : INVALID Why : Cat did not give the trial. He demanded it and Lysa agreed Robb Declared King of the North and Riverland Nobility/Stupidity : Again, INVALID Why : Robb didn’t say, HEY crown me King! His men decided they wanted him for king. Cat Negotiate with Walder Frey Nobility/Stupidity : 80/20 Why : Noble, well, she did what was needed. Stupid, not in my opinion. They had no choice. Maybe she could have married off Bran or Rickon but Walder wouldn’t have accepted that. He would have said no, and not let them pass. Then sided with Lannisters and Starks are doubly screwed. Robb Married Jeyne Nobility/Stupidity : 50/50 Why : Marrying her was noble, having relations in the first place was where he went wrong. Pretty stupid move. Total : 375/225 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Not Appearing Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 If we follow the OP rules, that wasn't honorable nor was it smart. So it doesn't count.Wouldn't that be 0/100? The OP is just listing actions and assessing. What rule are you thinking of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Catelyn Arrested TyrionNobility/Stupidity : 30/70Why : Yes she has valid reason to arrest him but she lacks of strong proof. Moreover she didn't give heads up to Riverrun and other Riverland house so destruction is unavoidable. And does she really have clear goals with this action? Catelyn Took Tyrion to ValeNobility/Stupidity : 60/40Why : Smart move, eyrie is difficult to impregnated. But see above, she forgot the heads up Considering that the news spread all the way to Casterly Rock, it's virtually guaranteed that they spread through whole Riverlands, as well, including Riverrun. Do you assume only one witness from the inn raced with this piece of incredibly juicy news straight to Tywin, but everyone else for some unfathomable reasons kept their mouths firmly shut? Cat Gave Tyrion A TrialNobility/Stupidity : 50/50Why : This is not only her but on Lysa too. Tyrion played them and he won Not "Lysa too", but "wholly Lysa". Sorry, the decision was simply out of Cat's hands, so I don't get how can you judge Cat here. Robb Declared King of the North and RiverlandNobility/Stupidity : 80/20Why : I feel like this is exactly what i would do if i were him, grab my own crown when war errupted in every side. Plus the Tyrell were fighting the lannister too so future looks good. Downside, it would be more dutiful to join Stannis One, Robb didn't declare himself king, the northmen and the riverlords did. Two, why on Earth would it be "dutiful" for him to join Stannis, if he had no idea about the twincest? Cat Negotiate with Walder FreyNobility/Stupidity : 40/60Why : Its his stronghold so negotiation couldn't be avoided but i blame Cat's shitty negotiation skill. He simply asked for too much and she granted it OK, how do you know what terms Walder would agree on? And is a marriage alliance really that big a price to ask for joining an open rebellion against the Iron Throne, with two Lannister armies already ravaging the Riverlands? Hell, Hoster Tully in a similar situation demanded - and got - two marriage alliances with two Great Houses. Robb Married JeyneNobility/Stupidity : 0/100Why : He would dishonor himself either way but in the end he chose his pants. No nobility factor for him Agreed on this one, at least. I feel like the lone voice crying in the wilderness here, but Robb did not choose 'his pants'. He married for love, and to do right by the girl he slept with. Anyone still remember that expression 'do right by her'? 'Do the right thing by her and marry her'? Anyone? Anyone at all? (That's called 'being honourable' by the way). And there was also the matter of falling in love, young and innocent and falling for someone you sleep with. A natural and instinctive thing. Is everybody, even teenagers, nowadays so experienced sexually, they can't relate to this at all? Everybody has disconnected sex from their emotions completely? Everybody?? Awww, that's so darn cute. And yet I simply don't give a fuck about any of that. Robb was a king, goddammit, and he should act like one. He gave his word. The Freys fought for him, some of them died for him - how about doing right by them?As for your rhetorical question - believe it or not, not everybody is a king leading his country in war. If Robb didn't fancy marrying for political reasons, he should've rejected Walder's terms and stayed on the wrong side of the Trident. A deal is a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtree Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 You should add Cat releasing Jaime, btw. Just my opinion.Good one, just added Not to spoil fun, but nobility = intelligence, and nobility is not opposite of stupidity... So, these scales, IMO, needs a bit adjustment. You can't say something is done nobly when you argue it is done intelligently. I guess what i'm trying to do here is to score their action,which side they're dominantly leaning forward toNobility here could also mean wise action = inteligence, if there's any noble action but not executed in wise way that would be 50/50. Noble and wise at highest would be 100/0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 As regards Robb, we don't know enough about the economy of the North, the taxation between it and KL or any of the other things that go along with it. Since I do not once here any Northerner complaining about taxation without representation or whatever I am going to say this King of the North thing was one of the dumbest things in the series. No thought was given to lining up trade agreements, or allies or anything else before such a decision was made, which was certainly not going to be viewed favourably by whoever got the crown. Really, really, really dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I guess what i'm trying to do here is to score their action,which side they're dominantly leaning forward toNobility here could also mean wise action = inteligence, if there's any noble action but not executed in wise way that would be 50/50. Noble and wise at highest would be 100/0 Well, I could never guess that nobility could be interpreted as intelligence. Since English is not my first language, I am sorry for my mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Well, I could never guess that nobility could be interpreted as intelligence. Since English is not my first language, I am sorry for my mistake. Nobility =/= intelligence at all, your English is fine. Nobility noun 1. the quality of being noble in character, mind, birth, or rank. synonyms: virtue, goodness, honor, decency, integrity; More 2. the group of people belonging to the noble class in a country, esp. those with a hereditary or honorary title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boar of Gore Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Your not alone any more buddy :cheers: Thank you! I...I thought I was the only one. :bawl: Hooray! :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boar of Gore Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 there is a reason the saying Death before Dishonor is so popular. Ya the Starks may have acted "stupidly" in hindsight, but hindsight is always 20/20. They did everything they did because it was the right thing to do. They paid the ultimate price, sure. But do you think if they could do it over again, they would do anything differently? The only thing that Robb did that was completely stupid and without any bearing was leaving the North. He should of declared himself king and made Tywin go up and get him, especially after he captured Jaime. He could of sat in the North with his base of power (Winterfell) intact and held out at the Neck. This would of gave him more bargaining power as Tywin would have known going up to the North would be suicide Not honourable to leave his allies behind to Tywin's tender mercies. He ended up going north anyway, but by then it was clear he had no other choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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