The Brightfyre theory

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Hmmm, I don't know what you mean?

The Blackfyre's are descended from the female line because Maelys the Monstrous died without any sons. His daughter/sister/niece than gave birth to Illyrio, who is therefore a decendant of the female line. If Illyrio wants he can take the BF name, just like family names in Westeros don't die out if a daughter becomes heir (think HtH who will probably take the name of the Arryns).

I don't think the FM or any other organization are actually hunting male Blackfyre's. To much trouble.

I never thought about the connection between illyrio and maelys.....They are both described as being huge. I have to wonder if Barristan and Dany have had conversations off-screen about the history of the blackfyre rebellions? Since barristan killed Maelys I would think he would at least have told Dany about it. Also it is making me wonder if Barristan is going to repeat history and kill Illyrio or Aegon to stop the Blackfyre uprising again?

(for a while I was thinking Barristan may die in the Slaver's Bay battle, but now I see that he just has waaaay to much untold info to die yet.)

[J. Stargaryen]

But if Illyrio/Aegon are the last Blackfyre/brightflame males then why would Illyrio say the male line is died out, You think he means just that the line of males is broken and has passed through females??

Yes. After all, Aegon is a boy who is at least partially Blackfyre.

[Lost Melnibonean]

But if Illyrio/Aegon are the last Blackfyre/brightflame males then why would Illyrio say the male line is died out, You think he means just that the line of males is broken and has passed through females??

All it means is that Illyrio is the descendant of a daughter of House Blackfyre. That woman could have been Daemon's daughter, granddaughter, or great granddaughter, and Illyrio could've her son, grandson, or great grandson, respectively. She most likely would have been Maelys's aunt, sister, or cousin.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

All it means is that Illyrio is the descendant of a daughter of House Blackfyre. That woman could have been Daemon's daughter, granddaughter, or great granddaughter, and Illyrio could've her son, grandson, or great grandson, respectively. She most likely would have been Maelys's aunt, sister, or cousin.

Wait I am confused......The theory is that Maelys had a sister or daughter who is the mother of Illyrio (which is why Illyrio said the blackfyres are extinct in the male line). But is there any evidence of a sister or daughter that was with Maelys in Tyrosh or anywhere he was in Essos?

Edit: Ohhhh I see, the fact that fAegon said he had a Tyroshi mother........She probably wasn't his mother but his grandmother or aunt.....ok ok that makes sense. At the very least Aegon definitely knows some woman in Tyrosh, so that definitely fits here.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Wait I am confused......The theory is that Maelys had a sister or daughter who is the mother of Illyrio (which is why Illyrio said the blackfyres are extinct in the male line). But is there any evidence of a sister or daughter that was with Maelys in Tyrosh or anywhere he was in Essos?

Edit: Ohhhh I see, the fact that fAegon said he had a Tyroshi mother........She probably wasn't his mother but his grandmother or aunt.....ok ok that makes sense. At the very least Aegon definitely knows some woman in Tyrosh, so that definitely fits here.

I think you're taking what Aegon says about his mum too literally and I think you need to consider what descended along the female line means. First, Aegon says he dyes his hair to honor his dead Tyroshi mum. That's complete B.S. no matter whether you believe Aegon is Rhaegar's son or Illyrio's son. It's only possible if you believe he's some random Targaryen look alike or if Griff is his pa and he is Young Griff, which we know to be false. I think Veltigar and some others see a hint from the author in Aegon's story about his blue-haired Tyroshi mum, but I shouldn't put words into their mouths. As far as matrilineal descent is concerned, consider this. Daemon Blackfyre was of an age with Maekar. So his sons and two daughters would have been of Egg's generation. Given that the WOT9PK was about 40 years before our story unfolds, Maelys was likely of an age with Aerys, who was Egg's grandson. Given certain clues about Illyrio, we suspect he's in his late forties. So he would be of an age with Rhaegar, Egg's great grandson. So most likely there are two generations between Daemon Blackfyre and Maelys Blackfyre and three generations between Daemon Blackfyre and Illyrio. Daemon's patrilineal line died when Maelys died. But Illyrio suggests to Tyrion that Daemon's matrilineal line lives. That would descend from one of Daemon's two daughters, a granddaughter, or a great granddaughter. That woman could have been Maelys's cousin, sister, or aunt, or grandmother.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think you're taking what Aegon says about his mum too literally and I think you need to consider what descended along the female line means. First, Aegon says he dyes his hair to honor his dead Tyroshi mum. That's complete B.S. no matter whether you believe Aegon is Rhaegar's son or Illyrio's son. It's only possible if you believe he's some random Targaryen look alike or if Griff is his pa and he is Young Griff, which we know to be false. I think Veltigar and some others see a hint from the author in Aegon's story about his blue-haired Tyroshi mum, but I shouldn't put words into their mouths. As far as matrilineal descent is concerned, consider this. Daemon Blackfyre was of an age with Maekar. So his sons and two daughters would have been of Egg's generation. Given that the WOT9PK was about 40 years before our story unfolds, Maelys was likely of an age with Aerys, who was Egg's grandson. Given certain clues about Illyrio, we suspect he's in his late forties. So he would be of an age with Rhaegar, Egg's great grandson. So most likely there are two generations between Daemon Blackfyre and Maelys Blackfyre and three generations between Daemon Blackfyre and Illyrio. Daemon's patrilineal line died when Maelys died. But Illyrio suggests to Tyrion that Daemon's matrilineal line lives. That would descend from one of Daemon's two daughters, a granddaughter, or a great granddaughter. That woman could have been Maelys's cousin, sister, or aunt, or grandmother.

Right I see now, thank you for clarifying :)

[Little and Less]

I really like Vetigar's theory - if only because I can understand some of Vary's motives better. Reminds me of the saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman (or effeminate Varys) scorned. If you were from a line of Targaryen's that had been disinherited/made paupers/slaves by other BLOOD relatives, you might cast a pretty long grudge too, enough to play the long game and want to watch those members of that part of the family, epically fail (which would be all the more sweeter if you had a part to play in it too).

If anything, this idea of Targaryen vs. Targaryen is not new - GRRM just showed us that Targaryens don't seem to mind killing each other and their dragons in his Princess and Queen story about the Dance of Dragons.

[Little and Less]

I just noticed this post in Wiki about Varys:

IN AFFC, in KL there is a popular puppet show that depicts a kingdom being "ruled by a pride of Lions that had grown arrogant and began to devour its own subjects....At the end of the show a Dragon is hatched from an egg and devours all the lions..."

In the Wiki account it says that many readers believe that Vary is the mastermind behind this puppet show.

Hmm....A Dragon (notice it only mentions one Dragon) is hatched from an egg.....sounds like Aegon (Dragon) and Varys (more egg symbolism) who is hatching a plan to put Aegon on the IT

It also foreshadowed Varys killing Kevin too (given he is part of the Lion pride)

[Little and Less]

Also, my post above reminds me that in the Dunk and Egg stories, Aerion Targaryen is enraged when the puppet show shows the Dragon losing because Dragons are not suppose to lose..

Varys uses a puppet show where the ending is the Dragon wins....that is very Aerion Targaryen of him...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Also, my post above reminds me that in the Dunk and Egg stories, Aerion Targaryen is enraged when the puppet show shows the Dragon losing because Dragons are not suppose to lose..

Varys uses a puppet show where the ending is the Dragon wins....that is very Aerion Targaryen of him...

they are both technically treason when they are happening

good find :)

[Alia of the knife]

Also, my post above reminds me that in the Dunk and Egg stories, Aerion Targaryen is enraged when the puppet show shows the Dragon losing because Dragons are not suppose to lose..

Varys uses a puppet show where the ending is the Dragon wins....that is very Aerion Targaryen of him...

Great catch!

[Veltigar]

Also, my post above reminds me that in the Dunk and Egg stories, Aerion Targaryen is enraged when the puppet show shows the Dragon losing because Dragons are not suppose to lose..

Varys uses a puppet show where the ending is the Dragon wins....that is very Aerion Targaryen of him...

I had totally forgotten About that puppet show. Indeed a Nice catch.

I really like Vetigar's theory - if only because I can understand some of Vary's motives better. Reminds me of the saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman (or effeminate Varys) scorned. If you were from a line of Targaryen's that had been disinherited/made paupers/slaves by other BLOOD relatives, you might cast a pretty long grudge too, enough to play the long game and want to watch those members of that part of the family, epically fail (which would be all the more sweeter if you had a part to play in it too).

If anything, this idea of Targaryen vs. Targaryen is not new - GRRM just showed us that Targaryens don't seem to mind killing each other and their dragons in his Princess and Queen story about the Dance of Dragons.

Exactly, it is just so much more in tune with the feeling and themes in these novels

[Veltigar]

I'm assuming everone read the new twow sample chapter on GRRM's site? I think there are two important things to take away from this chapter.

1) The Black Pearl has a brown skin and black hair. Not exactly a full Targ look. Chances that she (or better her mother) is Faegon's mother is close to 0%. So, anyone who believed that crackpot should change his mind ;)

2) Tywin went to Lys. This is the second important member of Aerys II government (after his nephew Steffon Baratheon) that went there. They most likely went there to look for a bride with Targ blood for Rhaegar (Tywin probably didn't put his heart in it though).

Since Aerion has the strongest Lys connection, they were most likely searching for a Brightflame descendant.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm assuming everone read the new twow sample chapter on GRRM's site? I think there are two important things to take away from this chapter.

1) The Black Pearl has a brown skin and black hair. Not exactly a full Targ look. Chances that she (or better her mother) is Faegon's mother is close to 0%. So, anyone who believed that crackpot should change his mind ;)

2) Tywin went to Lys. This is the second important member of Aerys II government (after his nephew Steffon Baratheon) that went there. They most likely went there to look for a bride with Targ blood for Rhaegar (Tywin probably didn't put his heart in it though).

Since Aerion has the strongest Lys connection, they were most likely searching for a Brightflame descendant.

Very interesting.

Tywin probably would have a mind to sabatage any candidate, but looking for a brightflame makes sense.

My other question, (and I may need a re-read), was it not the Black Pearl that the Kindly Man offered to send Arya to, and was she the one who bought a fish from Arya?

[Frey family reunion]

I'm assuming everone read the new twow sample chapter on GRRM's site? I think there are two important things to take away from this chapter.

1) The Black Pearl has a brown skin and black hair. Not exactly a full Targ look. Chances that she (or better her mother) is Faegon's mother is close to 0%. So, anyone who believed that crackpot should change his mind ;)

2) Tywin went to Lys. This is the second important member of Aerys II government (after his nephew Steffon Baratheon) that went there. They most likely went there to look for a bride with Targ blood for Rhaegar (Tywin probably didn't put his heart in it though).

Since Aerion has the strongest Lys connection, they were most likely searching for a Brightflame descendant.

Yea, that kind of kills the only alternative I can think of for Aegon's mother other than Serra. Not so much because of the appearance of the current Black Pearl, because that could have been as a result of her father, but the fact that the initial Black Pearl was apparently a Summer Islander. (Of course this creates an entirely new theory, could Sarella's mother have been the previous Black Pearl? How long ago was Oberyn in Braavos?)

So I'll concede Aegon's mother is Serra, and with that concession, I assume that Serra is of Blackfyre descent. Now I'm still not convinced that this means Varys (who I do think is a Brightflame) is also related to Serra. Nor do I think it necessarily means that Aegon is Illyrio's son. After all it is possible she left the Pleasure House with a child in tow, or in the oven. In fact it may have been the real reason that Illyio chose to bring her to Pentos.

[Alia of the knife]

I've always thought that the potential historical parallels between Serra and the mother of Henry VII, Margaret Beaufort, are compelling

Of course the individuals are vastly different with Beaufort fanatically devout and Serra coming from a pillow house, which I could see Martin playing into that irony.

Both women descended from a bastard line, hide their true selves, (Serra as Septa Lemore and Beaufort a Yorkist convert), who feel it is their destiny to see their son on the throne.

[Ygrain]

Could someone link those chapters, please? For some reason, I have problems accessing the site.

[Veltigar]

Could someone link those chapters, please? For some reason, I have problems accessing the site.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

Only one chapter sadly ;)

[Veltigar]

Very interesting.

Tywin probably would have a mind to sabatage any candidate, but looking for a brightflame makes sense.

My other question, (and I may need a re-read), was it not the Black Pearl that the Kindly Man offered to send Arya to, and was she the one who bought a fish from Arya?

It was just a courtesan, not specified I think.

I can't recall who bought a fish (or was it clams?) Arya. It was either the Black Pearl or the Veiled Lady

[Veltigar]

Yea, that kind of kills the only alternative I can think of for Aegon's mother other than Serra. Not so much because of the appearance of the current Black Pearl, because that could have been as a result of her father, but the fact that the initial Black Pearl was apparently a Summer Islander. (Of course this creates an entirely new theory, could Sarella's mother have been the previous Black Pearl? How long ago was Oberyn in Braavos?)

So I'll concede Aegon's mother is Serra, and with that concession, I assume that Serra is of Blackfyre descent. Now I'm still not convinced that this means Varys (who I do think is a Brightflame) is also related to Serra. Nor do I think it necessarily means that Aegon is Illyrio's son. After all it is possible she left the Pleasure House with a child in tow, or in the oven. In fact it may have been the real reason that Illyio chose to bring her to Pentos.

Oberyn was in Braavos 9-14 years ago. daenerys was still very young. So Sarella is to old. Also, the books state that her mother was a captain from the summer isles, not a Braavosi courtesan.