The Brightfyre theory

[Veltigar]

I would disagree. If Tywin were looking for a legitimate Brightflame descendant, he probably meant to "remove" her from Cersei's path or wed her to Jamie. If he'd found a boy...

I believe he went to Lys while Joanna was still alive. She would have made short work of Tywin's desires to wed Cersei to Rhaegar. The idea probably only found it's way to Tywin after he was unsuccesful in acquiring a Brightlame bride for the Rhae-man

I'm quite convinced she's the Mad Maid and Lord Hightower is in on the fAegon conspiracy.

I doubt it. The mad maid actually existed before all this. You can't just fake an adult trueborn daughter.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I believe he went to Lys while Joanna was still alive. She would have made short work of Tywin's desires to wed Cersei to Rhaegar. The idea probably only found it's way to Tywin after he was unsuccesful in acquiring a Brightlame bride for the Rhae-man

I doubt it. The mad maid actually existed before all this. You can't just fake an adult trueborn daughter.

Why wouldn't Johanna want her daughter to be queen? The Mad Maid disappeared ten years ago.

[J. Stargaryen]

No Webber heritage was involved. Apart from the fact that there doesn't seem to be any available Webber women, there is the fact that the Webbers are way to low on the ladder to get a Targ match.

It's more that their conflict over water symbolizes the struggle between Blackfyre's and Targs for the IT. They then resolved this struggle by marrying one another, that way they would both get the biggest advantages instead of their domain falling to a cousin branch or the IT respectively.

They resolved their conflict by marrying one another. Just like Blackfyre and the Targ descended Briightflames did.

This, plus the "water" they were fighting over symbolizes the Daenerys that Daemon Blackfyre loved, or her marriage to the Dornish prince. The straw that broke the camels back in the Targ-Blackfyre feud, according to GRRM, was when Daeron II married that Daenerys to the Prince of Dorne, Maron Martell. The latter built the water gardens to mark the occasion.

The reason that House Webber signifies the Brightflame line is that their sigil is a spider, and in TSS the head of their House is a lady; i.e., a female spider. Which we take to represent the sister of our contemporary spider, Varys. Cue the Serra is Varys' sister theories.

The Osgreys represent the Blackfyres for more obvious reasons; i.e., that Ser Eustace Osgrey and his sons sided with the Black Dragon in the first Blackfyre Rebellion.

[Veltigar]

Why wouldn't Johanna want her daughter to be queen? The Mad Maid disappeared ten years ago.

Johanna obviously had her sights set on Oberyn and Elia. And she didn't want her daughter to be exposed to Targaryen madness or Aerys as a father-in-law.

The MM disappeared only 10 years ago. Ashara Dayne has been gone for longer than 10 years. And the MM is an actual existing person, who chose to retreat to the Hightower 10 years ago. She didn't just appear out of thin air. She was one of Lord Hightowers trueborn children. You can't just make up a trueborn adult daughter out of thin air and expect people not to ask questions. What a disguise would that be.

[Rust Cohle]

Is old Nan connected to this theory at all?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Johanna obviously had her sights set on Oberyn and Elia. And she didn't want her daughter to be exposed to Targaryen madness or Aerys as a father-in-law.

The MM disappeared only 10 years ago. Ashara Dayne has been gone for longer than 10 years. And the MM is an actual existing person, who chose to retreat to the Hightower 10 years ago. She didn't just appear out of thin air. She was one of Lord Hightowers trueborn children. You can't just make up a trueborn adult daughter out of thin air and expect people not to ask questions. What a disguise would that be.

You could be right about the Martel twins. I think Melara Hightower got recruited to help Aegon ten years ago and the cover was she was locked away in the tower.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Is old Nan connected to this theory at all?

I don't see how she would be...

[oursisthefury69]

Awesome thread, Havent been able to look through every single comment, so forgive me if its been brought up

Does anybody else think the Tattered Prince could be Aerions true-born exiled son? With him being the father of Varys and Serra; His age could definitely be on par with Aerions son,(and being the father of Varys) and there's clearly some significance to the story GRRM Is building up for the Tattered Prince. The Tattered Prince also has a percuiar interest in taking control over Pentos, where Illryio is the current big dog. Perhaps Tatters is trying to find someone to help him conquer Pentos to seek revenge on Illyrio, the man who impregnated his daughter who's now dead?

I also think Serra is the woman Aerys sent Steffon Baratheon to find in the Free Cities, after the knowledge of her lineage was provided by the recently appointed master of whispers Varys. ( its an under-discussed topic on what Varys intentions were when he first arrived in Westeros, I believe Aerys only first heard of the mysterious foreign talents of Varys when Varys was ready for him to learn about him) It seems more than suspicious that Steffon was incapable of finding any women of high Valyrian birth for Rhaegar to wed, but it'd make a lot more sense if it was one specific woman he couldn't find. Perhaps Illyrio went against the initial plan and fell for Serra himself

[J. Stargaryen]

Awesome thread, Havent been able to look through every single comment, so forgive me if its been brought up

Does anybody else think the Tattered Prince could be Aerions true-born exiled son? With him being the father of Varys and Serra; His age could definitely be on par with Aerions son,(and being the father of Varys) and there's clearly some significance to the story GRRM Is building up for the Tattered Prince. The Tattered Prince also has a percuiar interest in taking control over Pentos, where Illryio is the current big dog. Perhaps Tatters is trying to find someone to help him conquer Pentos to seek revenge on Illyrio, the man who impregnated his daughter who's now dead?

I also think Serra is the woman Aerys sent Steffon Baratheon to find in the Free Cities, after the knowledge of her lineage was provided by the recently appointed master of whispers Varys. ( its an under-discussed topic on what Varys intentions were when he first arrived in Westeros, I believe Aerys only first heard of the mysterious foreign talents of Varys when Varys was ready for him to learn about him) It seems more than suspicious that Steffon was incapable of finding any women of high Valyrian birth for Rhaegar to wed, but it'd make a lot more sense if it was one specific woman he couldn't find. Perhaps Illyrio went against the initial plan and fell for Serra himself

This is an interesting line of thought.

[Alia of the knife]

I to believe that Lemore is not Ashara. If Ashara is still alive she's chilling in the Neck with HR.

I believe that if Lemore is anyone worthy of note she's simply Serra. She would be the right age, has some interesting physical traits (birthmarks, her eyes are never described IIRC and her beauty), she's comfortable with nudity (a result of her unhappy childhood) and she's loyal to Aegon.

Her death would simply be a cover story to allow her to be closer to her son without arousing suspicion. It would also be a suitable hint to Faegon's unimportance in the grand skeme of things. All our very important protagonists have a deceased mother in common.

I would love Ashara and HR to be together, and it certainly would be unexpected. :)

Also, was not Tywin preparing Cersei for Rhaegar since she was a child? I thought that was Cersei and Tywins "special" secret.

[Frey family reunion]

This, plus the "water" they were fighting over symbolizes the Daenerys that Daemon Blackfyre loved, or her marriage to the Dornish prince. The straw that broke the camels back in the Targ-Blackfyre feud, according to GRRM, was when Daeron II married that Daenerys to the Prince of Dorne, Maron Martell. The latter built the water gardens to mark the occasion.

The reason that House Webber signifies the Brightflame line is that their sigil is a spider, and in TSS the head of their House is a lady; i.e., a female spider. Which we take to represent the sister of our contemporary spider, Varys. Cue the Serra is Varys' sister theories.

The Osgreys represent the Blackfyres for more obvious reasons; i.e., that Ser Eustace Osgrey and his sons sided with the Black Dragon in the first Blackfyre Rebellion.

So Illyrio is the Chequy lion?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Awesome thread, Havent been able to look through every single comment, so forgive me if its been brought up

Does anybody else think the Tattered Prince could be Aerions true-born exiled son? With him being the father of Varys and Serra; His age could definitely be on par with Aerions son,(and being the father of Varys) and there's clearly some significance to the story GRRM Is building up for the Tattered Prince. The Tattered Prince also has a percuiar interest in taking control over Pentos, where Illryio is the current big dog. Perhaps Tatters is trying to find someone to help him conquer Pentos to seek revenge on Illyrio, the man who impregnated his daughter who's now dead?

I also think Serra is the woman Aerys sent Steffon Baratheon to find in the Free Cities, after the knowledge of her lineage was provided by the recently appointed master of whispers Varys. ( its an under-discussed topic on what Varys intentions were when he first arrived in Westeros, I believe Aerys only first heard of the mysterious foreign talents of Varys when Varys was ready for him to learn about him) It seems more than suspicious that Steffon was incapable of finding any women of high Valyrian birth for Rhaegar to wed, but it'd make a lot more sense if it was one specific woman he couldn't find. Perhaps Illyrio went against the initial plan and fell for Serra himself

This is an interesting line of thought.

Yes very interesting. And I agree that it is hard to tell and underdiscussed about Varys when Aerys first hired him. The WOIAF app says this.

On Varys;

"He Flees to Pentos and would have died there had he not met an impoverished young bravo, Illyrio, who becomes his protector and ally. Together the two develop an impressive criminal partnership, developing a system of 'little mice'--children trained to thievery, who steal wealth, and eventually secrets, from the powerful and wealthy. On the back of these efforts, Illyrio rises to become a magister of the city, while Varys comes to the attention of King Aerys II in Westeros, who has come to fear his own vassals as his potential enemies. In later days it is claimed that the rot in Aerys's realm truly began with Varys's entry into the realm as master of whisperers because of the Spider's ability to discover plots and foes that the already-paranoid king had never imagined. Varys serves with apparent loyalty for the rest of Aerys's (short) reign, even as the king becomes increasingly erratic. After word arrives of Rhaegar's death ont he Trident, varys claims to have spoken against opening the gates of KL to allow Tywin's host to enter. But he is overruled, and so hides himself until the worst of the violence of the sack is over."

I never knew the bolded part before. Sounds to me like Varys and Illyrio planned to bring down the Targs and put a BF on the throne from the beginning. They probably heard about how crazy Aerys had become, saw a weakness in the royal family and exploited it slowly....If you ask me :)

On Illyrio:

"When Young, Illyrio is a beautiful, slender bravo in soiled silks, living by his blade in Pentos. But his fortunes change when he becomes protector to a fugitive thief--a eunuch named varys who has been driven from Myr. Forming a partnership, Varys robs other theives of their takings while Illyrio offers to recover the stolen goods for a fee. Eventually their activities grow more ambitious, and they move from stealing goods to stealing secrets from the homes of the rich and pwerful. With their stolen wealth and secrets, Illyrio rises to become a magister of Pentos and is even wed to the maiden daughter of a cousin of the city's prince--although his true passion is for Serra, a concubine he finds in a Lynesse pillow house who later dies when the plague known as the grey death sweeps through the city."

I never knew that bolded part either, sounds a little bit like what is happening with Aegon being 'returned' to Westeros.

One other thing at the end of Illyrio's page;

"Although Varys professes that Aegon has been raised to be the best of all possible kings, Illyrio suggests only that his aid to Varys is predicated on a bond of friendship and affection--a suggestion Tyrion doubts."

So the app is clearly telling us that either Varys or Illyrio (or both) are lying about their intentions and interest in Aegon. IMO it is Varys lying. they are absolutely helping each other and Aegon due to friendship and family affection.

Loving this APP :)

Discuss

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Awesome thread, Havent been able to look through every single comment, so forgive me if its been brought up

Does anybody else think the Tattered Prince could be Aerions true-born exiled son? With him being the father of Varys and Serra; His age could definitely be on par with Aerions son,(and being the father of Varys) and there's clearly some significance to the story GRRM Is building up for the Tattered Prince. The Tattered Prince also has a percuiar interest in taking control over Pentos, where Illryio is the current big dog. Perhaps Tatters is trying to find someone to help him conquer Pentos to seek revenge on Illyrio, the man who impregnated his daughter who's now dead?

I also think Serra is the woman Aerys sent Steffon Baratheon to find in the Free Cities, after the knowledge of her lineage was provided by the recently appointed master of whispers Varys. ( its an under-discussed topic on what Varys intentions were when he first arrived in Westeros, I believe Aerys only first heard of the mysterious foreign talents of Varys when Varys was ready for him to learn about him) It seems more than suspicious that Steffon was incapable of finding any women of high Valyrian birth for Rhaegar to wed, but it'd make a lot more sense if it was one specific woman he couldn't find. Perhaps Illyrio went against the initial plan and fell for Serra himself

Mulling this over....

Aerion's son is Tattered Prince. Tatters Fathers Varys and Serra in Lys. Varys makes his way to KL and becomes king's whisperer, meets Illryio along the way. Serra lives in pillow house. Varys whipsers of Aerion's granddaughter in Lys as potential bride for crown prince. King dispatches Lord of Storms End to retrieve her. Illyrio takes her to Pentos...hmmm....why? So she is not found? Becomes smitten, whelps kid. Serra dies as victim of grey death. Steffens is a fool.....I mean is fooled....I mean finds a fool. He dies.

I like it. The part that hangs me is why Illryio taking her from Lys if Varys via Aerys sent Steff there to bring her to KL. If Illyrio had strayed, would he still trust him in an alliance? There doesn't seem to be animosity between them. Kind of a big plot to foil. Varys would be slightly POed, no?

[J. Stargaryen]

Hm, you know, this whole scenario reminds me a little bit of the situation that led to the first Blackfyre Rebellion, but with some of the players moved around.

Daemon Blackfyre loved that era's Daenerys Targaryen. Yet she was married to a Dornish Prince.

Illyrio Blackfyre loved Serra "Brightflame" Targaryen, yet she was maybe supposed to marry Rhaegar, according this line of thinking. When that failed, he married a Dornish Princess. Of course there is also the "water" theme popping up again, which we see in TSS and with the water gardens.

Perhaps Illyrio decided to right some wrongs by marrying a Targaryen bride, as the first Blackfyre wanted to do. Dunno if there's anything to it, but just something that came to mind.

[Alia of the knife]

The other thing too is if she had lived in a pillow house, Aerys may have been forced to reject her because of those improprieties once he found out about them, despite her bloodline.

I also get the feeing they wanted their own operation, eliminating the Targaryens altogether for the sake of vendetta and justice for being passed over- twice.

And I also speculate that Varys sayng Aegon would be a better ruler stemmed not just from his training, but because he is also not really a Targaryen, therefore weak, having their own sense of blood superiority.

Nonetheless, its on the right track as far as the motivation for Aerys searching the free cities rather than looking first to Westeros.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

So who then would Illryio be? A schemer Varys met, or still a blackfyre? If Serra and Varys were Aerion's and Illryio a Blackfyre, and Illryio screwed it all up, would Varys have taken that with even more heat?

[Mithras]

The fat man grew pensive. “Daenerys was half a child when she came to me, yet fairer even than my second wife, so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself. Such a fearful, furtive thing, however, I knew I should get no joy from coupling with her. Instead I summoned a bedwarmer and fucked her vigorously until the madness passed.”

I think it is possible that the original plan was to marry Serra to Rhaegar and once they were married, apply the strategy of Cersei. They were going to pass their own Blackfyre child as Rhaegar’s legitimate heir.

However, Illyrio was much younger by that time. Out of impatience or jealousy or whatever else, he claimed Serra for himself, similar to how he thought of claiming Dany for himself later.

[Alia of the knife]

So who then would Illryio be? A schemer Varys met, or still a blackfyre? If Serra and Varys were Aerion's and Illryio a Blackfyre, and Illryio screwed it all up, would Varys have taken that with even more heat?

A Blackfyre who has a son with Serra to cut the Targaryens out altogether by putting their own son on the throne.

I suspect they would feel he has the better claim than Rhaegar, because wouldn't Rhaegar be descended from the brother that came AFTER Aerion? Not to mention being also descended from Daemon whom some considered at the time to be stronger than his trueborn brother.

They just had to figure out how to bring them down, hence Varys role.

[Aetta]

Mulling this over....

Aerion's son is Tattered Prince. Tatters Fathers Varys and Serra in Lys. Varys makes his way to KL and becomes king's whisperer, meets Illryio along the way. Serra lives in pillow house. Varys whipsers of Aerion's granddaughter in Lys as potential bride for crown prince. King dispatches Lord of Storms End to retrieve her. Illyrio takes her to Pentos...hmmm....why? So she is not found? Becomes smitten, whelps kid. Serra dies as victim of grey death. Steffens is a fool.....I mean is fooled....I mean finds a fool. He dies.

I like it. The part that hangs me is why Illryio taking her from Lys if Varys via Aerys sent Steff there to bring her to KL. If Illyrio had strayed, would he still trust him in an alliance? There doesn't seem to be animosity between them. Kind of a big plot to foil. Varys would be slightly POed, no?

It wouldn't be the first time we're getting mixed signals from Varys when it comes to urging his king to seek out a woman over the Narrow Sea-after helping said woman to hide. Is there something Varys is hiding from Illyrio? Noodling the angles...

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

A Blackfyre who has a son with Serra to cut the Targaryens out altogether by putting their own son on the throne.

I suspect they would feel he has the better claim than Rhaegar, because wouldn't Rhaegar be descended from the brother that came AFTER Aerion?

They just had to figure out how to bring them down, hence Varys role.

It also makes a bit of sense then that Illryio would marry Dany to the horse lords hoping she and Viserys would not survive long, or at least be farther removed from the picture. The last remaining of the Targaryens.