The Walking Dead season 4 ( NO COMIC SPOILERS)

[paddington]

I think if tyrese shot carol over the dinner table, it would have been totally out of character. I got the impression that the disscussion before carol went to kill lizze was about tyrese trying to find a different path to killing. I don't see tyrese as a person that can kill like that.

[Jackson5tributeband]

I see this scenario as a device that allows Tyreese to forgive Carol. He agreed on what needed to happen, but its unlikely he would have been able to do it.

Martin does the same thing with Jon and Gillys baby.

The comic books are amazing in that respect. Remorseless and soul rending, particular regarding the fate of children. Lets not get into spoilers but for anyone to call what AMC did to MIka 'brave' has obviously never read the comics (which lets remember is what the TV show is based upon). I'm not sure if I could handle that in a TV show, which is probably why the writers won't go there.

[Jackson5tributeband]

You know, I was going to go through your points one by one but I don't think I'm going to bother. I will address one part, putting myself in Carol's place as you said.

I'm in Carol's place. I saw a girl, very recently, play tag with a zombie. I never saw that girl feeding mice to one so she can make friends. They didn't discover that until after Mika was dead, so let's strike that one off your list. Finally, I watch her say a ton of weird ass shit while I was chatting with her... and by weird ass shit I mean she says she understands what she has to do after I ask her if she understands that zombies aren't people. She understands what she has to do now, a couple hours after she stepped in to help kill the crispy zombie swarm.

I am curious, what "worse" traits did Carol encourage?

So let's see, delusional about zombies and says weird ass shit (that only seems weird to the audience because we have much more knowledge of the situation). Yep, she surely must be planning on murdering her beloved little sister and the baby she helped save from death just days before. :rolleyes:

In conclusion, I'm going to repeat your words back to you. Take them to heart:

You might think that implausible but that's the way it was written in the script so your opinion on that is worthless.

She spent weeks..months? Teaching a psychologically disturbed child the importance of kill or be killed (zombies or humans). She encouraged her at every opportunity to 'be strong' i.e to kill shit. When the child goes full crazy her response was to shoot her in the head as she would be a burden and couldn't be trusted near the baby. It took her all of five minutes to decide that. No 'lets leave her with some food so she can take her chances' or 'lets keep her restrained and maybe think up a more creative solution in the morning'. Nope it was out with the revolver and bam@! What a gal! Oh and lets not forget her murdering two completely defenseless sick people for no good reason, because you and all the other Carol fans sure seem to.

[awesome possum]

She spent weeks..months? Teaching a psychologically disturbed child the importance of kill or be killed (zombies or humans). She encouraged her at every opportunity to 'be strong' i.e to kill shit. When the child goes full crazy her response was to shoot her in the head as she would be a burden and couldn't be trusted near the baby. It took her all of five minutes to decide that. No 'lets leave her with some food so she can take her chances' or 'lets keep her restrained and maybe think up a more creative solution in the morning'. Nope it was out with the revolver and bam@! What a gal! Oh and lets not forget her murdering two completely defenseless sick people for no good reason, because you and all the other Carol fans sure seem to.

You might think that implausible but that's the way it was written in the script so your opinion on that is worthless.

[Jackson5tributeband]

You might think that implausible but that's the way it was written in the script so your opinion on that is worthless.

What does that even mean? You know it's cool being a smart arse but you need to put some thought into it.

Do you want to justify Carol murdering in the prison or do we just accept I'm right?

[LFiori]

I share the thought that what happened to Mika is Carol's fault. She knew Lizzie was not to be trust, and still she left her alone with Mika and the baby. When she stares at the deer and cries it is clear to me that she feels guilty. And she should.

I don't read the comics, but in the tv show Tyreese is a complete dumbass. He is clearly a character no one would miss, and I bet he will die soon.

[Mark Antony]

Yeah I mean she literally had just seen Lizzie dancing with a walker lol next logical step is to obviously leave her with the baby unsupervised :D

[Jackson5tributeband]

Remember when Lizzie was telling Carol about how she had to shoot people in the head during the Governors attack on the prison? What would your reaction be if a 12 year old told you that? What was 'Earth Mom" Carols?

I share the thought that what happened to Mika is Carol's fault. She knew Lizzie was not to be trust, and still she left her alone with Mika and the baby. When she stares at the deer and cries it is clear to me that she feels guilty. And she should.

I don't read the comics, but in the tv show Tyreese is a complete dumbass. He is clearly a character no one would miss, and I bet he will die soon.

Tyreese is 12 kinds of awesome for me, mainly because he still clings on to his humanity. A decent honest soul in a world of shit. I think he's been deeply affected by the death of the two children, and the plot will develop along the lines of his overwhelming guilt at going along with Carols execution of Lizzie. He did it to protect Little Ass Kicker, but once Rick finds out there will be blood.

[awesome possum]

What does that even mean? You know it's cool being a smart arse but you need to put some thought into it.

You tell me, you wrote it. Is your memory that bad?

Do you want to justify Carol murdering in the prison or do we just accept I'm right?

Carol didn't murder anyone as those two people were as good as dead. No one who had the sickness as early as they did survived it so they were absolutely going to die. It's like saying, "this person on life support is going to die a painful death in two days and you can't stop it but if you pull the plug they will die peacefully right now." Is that murder?

[Mark Antony]

Carol didn't murder anyone as those two people were as good as dead. No one who had the sickness as early as they did survived it so they were absolutely going to die. It's like saying, "this person on life support is going to die a painful death in two days and you can't stop it but if you pull the plug they will die peacefully right now." Is that murder?

But Carol has no right to make the decision on her own though, You think if it was Glenn and Maggie instead of Karen and David that she would of done the same thing?

[awesome possum]

But Carol has no right to make the decision on her own though, You think if it was Glenn and Maggie instead of Karen and David that she would of done the same thing?

Yes, I think she would have. She killed her adopted (insane) daughter because she was a threat.

As for having no right to make the decision on her own, you're right, but she did it anyway.

[Baitac]

You tell me, you wrote it. Is your memory that bad?

Carol didn't murder anyone as those two people were as good as dead. No one who had the sickness as early as they did survived it so they were absolutely going to die. It's like saying, "this person on life support is going to die a painful death in two days and you can't stop it but if you pull the plug they will die peacefully right now." Is that murder?

Not only that, but she totally exposed herself to the contagion when she made the decision to kill them for the betterment of the group. Carol doesn't take killing lightly. You see it in her face. I think both Tyreese and Carol should have kept Lizzie at one or the other's side all the time. However, I don't think that either of them (or I) thought that she would herself kill her only family member, a younger sister at that.

[red snow]

I think Carol has a lot to answer for in killing the two sick folk as she could have waited for them to die and then burn them. The killing of the psycho girl was a far more grey matter in the sense she was attached to the girl in question (so wasn't the stone cold killing of the infected folks) so it wasn't like she was copping out. If anything it means she probably would have killed the regular cast if they had been infected.

I still think in the world they are in, leaving the kid on her own would have been a crueler death than shooting her. I side with her judgement on Tyreese and the baby's life (including her own) were more important than risking to rehabilitate the girl.

We also need to remember that Carol most likely discussed this with Tyreese. Just because he didn't pull the trigger does not mean he didn't ok the killing.In fact he must have or he'd have lost his shit when he saw it go down.

[fuseprime]

We also need to remember that Carol most likely discussed this with Tyreese. Just because he didn't pull the trigger does not mean he didn't ok the killing.In fact he must have or he'd have lost his shit when he saw it go down.

I would imagine he knew, and condoned, Carol putting down Lizzie. I mean...he knew to walk to THAT window to watch, and had a look of guilt on his face. I supported their decision regarding Lizzie.

I also supported Carol's decision at the prison. If she had gone to the council, she would have been immediately turned down. She knew that, that's why she went ahead and killed the people at the prsion.

[Baitac]

I think Carol has a lot to answer for in killing the two sick folk as she could have waited for them to die and then burn them. The killing of the psycho girl was a far more grey matter in the sense she was attached to the girl in question (so wasn't the stone cold killing of the infected folks) so it wasn't like she was copping out. If anything it means she probably would have killed the regular cast if they had been infected.

I still think in the world they are in, leaving the kid on her own would have been a crueler death than shooting her. I side with her judgement on Tyreese and the baby's life (including her own) were more important than risking to rehabilitate the girl.

We also need to remember that Carol most likely discussed this with Tyreese. Just because he didn't pull the trigger does not mean he didn't ok the killing.In fact he must have or he'd have lost his shit when he saw it go down.

I agree. I just don't see how you can rehabilitate a child who is so disturbed under these circumstances. There are no psychotropic drugs, no psychoanalysis, only zombies. When Lizzie became a killer, she would have been interned in a psychiatric hospital, probably forever. :(

[MisterOJ]

Regarding what to do with Lizzie.

I've had this conversation with a couple different people. I think what Carol did was probably the most humane thing. Because just leaving her to fend for herself would have likely been worse. But, I think that's what I would have done. I think I could have justified in my mind that there was a chance - however slim - that she could survive and thrive on her own.

[paddington]

Nah the first thing she would have done is get bitten. The whole understanding them thing, playing with them, feeding them. You leave her she gets bitten, you keep her and one day shes opening the door to let zombies into play and have a snack. Or trying to fix you. leaving her is probably less humane.

[Underfoot]

Nah the first thing she would have done is get bitten. The whole understanding them thing, playing with them, feeding them. You leave her she gets bitten, you keep her and one day shes opening the door to let zombies into play and have a snack. Or trying to fix you. leaving her is probably less humane.

Plus, what if Lizzie gets picked up by another group, which wouldn't know that she's pyscho? That'd be endangering them as well.

I think Carol and Tyreese's decision to shoot her was probably the best choice in a really tough situation. Doesn't mean it wasn't hard to watch or that I would do the same thing, but there you have it.

[Tears of Lys]

Regarding what to do with Lizzie.

I've had this conversation with a couple different people. I think what Carol did was probably the most humane thing. Because just leaving her to fend for herself would have likely been worse. But, I think that's what I would have done. I think I could have justified in my mind that there was a chance - however slim - that she could survive and thrive on her own.

Leaving a little girl on her own, even if the ZA is not going on, would be pretty cruel. She still didn't understand what she did wrong. Now everyone pushes her away and leaves her to fend for herself? You KNOW she's going to follow you, hiding in the woods, crying.

It was a DAMN HARD CHOICE Carol made, but ultimately the right one.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Just because a lot of bad shit happened to her doesn't make her a good person. Bad shit does happen to bad people after all. As for your argument that Carol's suffering somehow explains her actions...hello? Who hasn't gone through terrible suffering on this show? Rick has had to kill his best friend and watch his wife die in childbirth...and you know the rest. Daryl has lost his brother. And so on and so on. These people have, as a rule, not turned into amoral psychopaths with a God complex. I can only put the apologetica for Carol down to the fact she's an older woman, an Earth mom in appearance. She killed two innocent, defenseless people for no good reason. She taught small impressionable children on the importance of being ruthless killers. What's worse is that all her fucked up crap has made things worse for the group and led to the death of innocent people needlessly. She saw what Lizzie was, but rather than do something about it she encouraged her worse traits as she viewed them as a positive in zombieland. Was she right to do that? According to you yes.

My point regarding Tyreese was not that he's suffered more loss than other people but that he's taken it way harder, some people are not as strong as others. He's very recently lost the woman he loved, not just someone he was banging, by murder. He hasn't been able to handle it, he's very damaged and in not capable of rational organised thinking. I do not hold him as accountable as Carol for that reason.

It would have been the perfect end to her story arc if Tyreese had just shot her (after he forgave her). A form of much deserved justice for those who have suffered at her hands. However it would have been inconsistent with the previous conversation between the two when Tyreese made clear he wouldn't make it with Little Ass Kicker without her. Shooting Carol would have effectively meant killing the baby, and clearly they wouldn't do that to Tyreese's character. Of course Carol was well aware of that when she handed the gun to Tyreese.

Jackson5tributeband,

Could you do me one huge favor and refrain from countering these imaginary points that you yourself have invented on my behalf? It really is exhausting to continually have my points ignored and to have to repeat myself - but I accept that maybe I have not been expressing myself clearly so I will attempt to do so one last time. However if you refuse to debate the points I have raised, where I took issue with the nonsense you keep spouting, then you must understand I strive to never ever argue with someone who needs to "move the goalposts" as they are unable to maintain a productive discourse. I do apologize if I have misunderstood your intent but this is my current impression of our attempt at having a conversation on this subject - that we are not even talking about the same thing at all whatsoever.

Moving on... you say;

"As for your argument that Carol's suffering somehow explains her actions...hello?"

No, I never made any excuses in this fashion. I merely pointed out that Tyreese is not the only one who may be "unhinged and damaged", as you put it, and I was curious why you felt it was an excuse for Tyreese? Do you see what happened here? I was the one asking you why you felt Tyreese's suffering somehow explains his non actions but you became confused and flipped it around on me instead.... so forgetting Carol - can you explain to me why a grown man has no responsibility towards the children around him during extremely dangerous times because he is "suffering"?

Next you say;

"She saw what Lizzie was, but rather than do something about it she encouraged her worse traits as she viewed them as a positive in zombieland. Was she right to do that? According to you yes."

Can you please point out to me where I have made such a statement so I can see where your confusion comes from? This is not any point I attempted to argue in any way. My point, though I admit was not made very clear, is why is Tyreese off the hook for not accepting any responsibility towards any of the children at the prison? What was Tyreese doing for their community that took so much of his time that he could not invest anything to these feral orphans? Or even Farmer Rick for that matter? My side point was, right or wrong, Carol at least tried... who else can say that? I never once commented on my view of whether I felt Carol did well or not.

Then you say;

"He hasn't been able to handle it, he's very damaged and in not capable of rational organised thinking. I do not hold him as accountable as Carol for that reason."

This is the same nonsense I have referred to in the past so I will really attempt to be clear here for you but I will warn you that means that you will likely feel offended by my bluntness. Let me start by saying that I am NOT being "apologetic for Carol" and I am only referring to her because you are contrasting her with Tyreese.

How can you feel that Tyreese should not be held as accountable as Carol since he is so damaged - but then you go on to claim just how much more damaged and irrational Carol is, and yet, you do hold her as the one accountable? Are you seriously claiming the one character that you hate because she is an "amoral psychopath with a God complex" should hold all blame? Well, I would think, that is the last person that should be blamed because a person like that should be held in the care of mental health professionals - where someone going through what you have described with Tyreese, I feel, needs to suck it up and take care of the children and the psychos since they can not properly take care of themselves under the best of circumstances. Why do you feel the murdering psycho is responsible instead of the one who has not murdered? How is that in any way logical?

Since the start you have cast them as the wicked woman causing havoc against the romantic male hero and it's sickening. "Tyreese can't be blamed, he's so unhinged and damaged that we couldn't expect him to have much insight... ...the writers highlight the depths of depravity Carol has fallen into"

My point is when you make such comparisons you sound like one of the worst types of male chauvinistic pigs I have ever heard and I wanted to give you the benefit of doubt, instead of outright slandering you, and give you the opportunity to further explain your thought process... but at this time, I'm sorry to say, you have only dug your hole deeper, imho, and I feel it's probably pointless to continue our discourse on this subject if my initial concerns have been correct, sorry, but that is what I have been truly trying to ascertain here all along.

Yeah I mean she literally had just seen Lizzie dancing with a walker lol next logical step is to obviously leave her with the baby unsupervised :D

Two points - Tyreese saw this as well and Tyreese is the one responsible for Judith's care, not Carol. :dunno: