The Walking Dead season 4 ( NO COMIC SPOILERS)

[Tears of Lys]

I've been thinking about the TWD phenomenon for a while now. And this thread is pretty much confirming my belief that there's a subset of TWD fans that are actually pissed that the show is so popular now. They liked it better when it was a hip, niche program - but now that it's mainstream, only want to bitch and moan about it.

That hipster mindset is so lame.

True. And then bitch about how the effects are so lame, mostly due to a low budget, and round and round.

[Azzanadra]

I've been thinking about the TWD phenomenon for a while now. And this thread is pretty much confirming my belief that there's a subset of TWD fans that are actually pissed that the show is so popular now. They liked it better when it was a hip, niche program - but now that it's mainstream, only want to bitch and moan about it.

That hipster mindset is so lame.

That's what happened with Breaking Bad in its final season as well.

Anyways, this was a great episode. Probably my favourite of season 4. I'm surprised they managed to even get away with this on a channel like AMC.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Carol horribly murdered two sick people to 'stop the infection spreading and save the group'. Did she know for sure they were going to die? Is she now a qualified medical doctor as well as a special forces ninja? No she didn't, and the writers, through Rick, make that perfectly clear. What's worse killing those two people did precisely fuck all to stop the disease spreading through the prison, and as they were being kept isolated anyway there was no call to kill them, apart from the fact Carol is a sick psycho.

Carol then goes out of her way to teach the children not just means to defend themselves in a dangerous environment, but also her fucked up credo of kill or be killed. Has this seen the kids in good stead? Well a lot of them are now dead, one of them at her hands, so no. It's cleat in tWD that being a part of a group and maintaining some semblance of moral decency is the best way to survive. If everyone followed Carol's fucked up Darwinism they'd be dead in days.

She saw that Lizzie was seriously messed up, however far from being concerned she viewed this as a 'strength'. Mika was 'weak', Lizzie was a bit misguided when it came to walkers but otherwise she was Carol's star pupil. Everything Carol has touched has turned to shit, she kills, and messes everything up yet people apologise for her. Hate her character and hopefully she dies soon.

(I did not make any apologies for Carol in my post that you quoted and I did not even mention anything concerning Carol killing Karen and David ... personally I disagree with her doing so and I would like to think that I would never choose to do that in a similar situation but I will explain why I see it as belonging more in a grey area instead of black and white in a moment when I comment on your second post I quoted below.)

I initially took issue with you sanctifying the suffering Tyreese and vilifying the wicked Carol over the Lizzie and Mika situation, and I suppose to some extent I also take issue with you making apologies for Tyreese and doing so in comparison with Carol.

The "suffering" comment alone seemed too ridiculous to believe you were serious - "Tyreese can't be blamed [for what happened with Lizzie], he's so unhinged and damaged that we couldn't expect him to have much insight" I mean truly? Can you please expound on what Tyreese's "suffering" is and why Carol is not?

Carol has been an unhinged and damaged character pre-apocalypse from being a survivor of an abusive husband. Then Carol loses her only child, a defenseless child in a zombie filled world, and once Carol begins to accept, to some degree, that she must give up hope of ever recovering her daughter they find out she has become a zombie - and even though Carol would not want to leave her daughter in that state Carol must witness her trusted group leader shoot her daughter in the head - not fun for any parent for any reason - but Carol survives this too.

But let's look at what Carol has done for the good of the group....

Carol soldiers on trying to be strong for her group as she makes them her family, what she cares about and what she lives for. Carol wants to protect them, essentially "mother" them but does so in a tougher more pragmatic way more suited to this new world order... but at least she is invested and connected. Carol spends time learning from Hershel how to care for the sick and injured, Carol takes a seat on the council when Rick snaps and becomes a farmer, Carol was the one who rightfully told Andrea to slit the Governor's throat in his sleep to save the group - Andrea included, Carol takes responsibility with the children and she even adopts two orphans to care for as she would her own.

Where or what was going on with Tyreese during this time? He met a woman he liked and he spent his time trying to get laid.... Then he acts like a complete lunatic trying to beat Daryl and Rick to death after someone killed this woman, that he only knew for a few weeks, because she was dying from a contagious disease. Was that a horrible situation? Absolutely

I agree it was a great episode. It would have been perfect that in the second to last scene Tyreese blew Carols brains out after telling her he forgave her, but I guess that's just me.

This is exactly why I find Carol killing Karen and David in the grey area. I do not agree with Carol's choice but she does accept responsibility and judgment for what she did and I personally find that admirable. When Rick flat out asked Carol if she killed them she did not even flinch and said "yes, I did".

Then the very moment Carol did not have the responsibility to care for those young girls anymore what does she do? Carol slides the gun over to Tyreese, showing she accepts and understands his judgment completely, then confesses - even though it will cost Carol her life. I respect people who take ownership of their actions.

[red snow]

That's what happened with Breaking Bad in its final season as well.

Anyways, this was a great episode. Probably my favourite of season 4. I'm surprised they managed to even get away with this on a channel like AMC.

Well, Breaking Bad sort of went there too and got away with it. It's all down to what they show and whether it's adult on kid or kid on kid violence.

True. And then bitch about how the effects are so lame, mostly due to a low budget, and round and round.

It's always gonna happen. Some of the biggest moaners probably didn't start watching until season 2!

I do think the show is open to ridicule most of the time though (no worse than, say "true blood"). I'd say 80% of it is mindless entertainment but they do occasionally throw out above average episodes and character moments. This week being a good example.

I still think this season has been the most consistent (even with the post prison episodes) so it's slowly getting better on average. The thing is, outside of the pilot, the show has never been in the league of Breaking Bad and the Wire (I don't even think they intend it to be) so I'm happy enough with it as long as it doesn't become utterly idiotic.

[MisterOJ]

That's true. For the most part, TWD is just a fun zombie show that sometimes has a serious moment or two thrown in.

That's why I don't get these folks that seem to think the show tries to be a serious drama. Where do they get that idea? Have they never watched Talking Dead? For the most part, the creators treat this as a fun zombie show first and as a sserious drama second.

[kairparavel]

I find the debate over suspension of disbelief in a show about the zombie apocalypse amusing, always. Just like the complaints about the stupid things people do in the show. I had this conversation with a coworker and I asked why the ZA would suddenly create a nation of MENSA candidates. Smart people in this world aren't necessarily the best at surviving in the new world.

As for leaving the kids alone, I wondered aloud about that too to MC but clearly it was meant to be a vehicle to set the murder. which as pointed out in an earlier post, could have happened in the house with everybody there but say, sleeping.

I feel Carol is going to die by season's end. In another discussion with another coworker, he felt she's come full circle, admitted her act, was forgiven and now has an essentially a clean slate (ie no more story to tell really). I also feel that her death will come at the hands of Darryl and his new companions. And I feel this, coupled with losing Beth, and all the other trauma will send him over the edge to perhaps rogue/ruthless. I think that would be interesting though I don't know how it would all fit in with the greater narrative.

[Baitac]

MM kept referring to "seeing a change in Carol" on TD. I have no idea what to expect from that. I remember when Laurie Holden was on TD she kept looking like she was holding back tears and in hindsight it was a giveaway that Andrea was going to die.

I very much hope they keep MM on the show. I love that she keeps her hair gray (unlike Daryl that has some interesting hair coloring going on now) and she is over 40. I think she's beautiful. I've enjoyed Carol's character journey. Despite their issues I like her opposite Rick.

That is what I thought as well. When they kept joking about Carol and Daryl, she wasn't laughing. I thought Oh oh, maybe she is like Laurie. That was so hard to watch (both Laurie and Carol). I really hope they don't kill her. :(

[dooog]

I wouldn't call it a non-starter. You just did a crappy job of making your point. Instead of saying "an awful lot of people gave up on it in season 2" what you should have said was, "me and my hipster pals decided to start bitching about how the show was no longer cool once everyone got on the bandwagon." If you'd just said what you meant from the beginning, I would have had no reason to call you out on it.

Do you always get so bitchy when people make you look the fool :p

Hipster eh. Hmmm, not entirely sure what that even means. Something about shopping for clothes in thrift shops, taking selfies and wearing tight jeans I thought?

As for The Walking Dead and being on the bandwagon you've got it arseways, again. I only started watching it when Season 3 began airing, so I guess i'm part of the "everyone" getting on that bandwagon.

Got any more theoretical nuggets of wisdom for me?

[Lady Olenna]

That is what I thought as well. When they kept joking about Carol and Daryl, she wasn't laughing. I thought Oh oh, maybe she is like Laurie. That was so hard to watch (both Laurie and Carol). I really hope they don't kill her. :(

It just didn't sit well, did it. It's been bothering me since.

Carol, in the beginning, was hated on because all she did was clean and do chores. But that's a huge part of making a home and community and it's important work :tantrum:

Then she starts to get tough, so to speak, and learns how to fight and shoot. People still hated. Even back then I was Team Carol. Now she is pretty much a one woman army and still a bunch of haters! I don't get it :(

Was it Carol that took Andrea aside and told her to Buck up and take the Gov out in his sleep? See, if Andrea had done what needed to be done, well, our one-legged friend would still be with us.

[Alia of the knife]

It just didn't sit well, did it. It's been bothering me since.

Carol, in the beginning, was hated on because all she did was clean and do chores. But that's a huge part of making a home and community and it's important work :tantrum:

Then she starts to get tough, so to speak, and learns how to fight and shoot. People still hated. Even back then I was Team Carol. Now she is pretty much a one woman army and still a bunch of haters! I don't get it :(

Was it Carol that took Andrea aside and told her to Buck up and take the Gov out in his sleep? See, if Andrea had done what needed to be done, well, our one-legged friend would still be with us.

Well said. :)

[Battle Kitten]

I want more of these slow and boring episodes. You don't need to one up yourself every season with a higher body count or more CGI if you spend time making people give a shit about the characters and make the story compelling.

I sure hope they don't kill Carol. Carol is the one person willing to take a risk and admit a mistake and take responsibility for her actions. I feel her story arc is very much like Daryl's in that these are two people who in their previous lives were "useless" to those around them and came out of it finding their own place in the world. I didn't sit well with me either that she shied away from the Daryl questions. I think the Daryl + Beth ship is a bit creepy.

[Baitac]

It just didn't sit well, did it. It's been bothering me since.

Carol, in the beginning, was hated on because all she did was clean and do chores. But that's a huge part of making a home and community and it's important work :tantrum:

Then she starts to get tough, so to speak, and learns how to fight and shoot. People still hated. Even back then I was Team Carol. Now she is pretty much a one woman army and still a bunch of haters! I don't get it :(

Was it Carol that took Andrea aside and told her to Buck up and take the Gov out in his sleep? See, if Andrea had done what needed to be done, well, our one-legged friend would still be with us.

Hi sweet Lady O! I don't know why she was so hated. She cooked and she tended house because she was an abused woman. We forget how shy and quiet she was, not wanting to call much attention to herself or her family.

Carol had to lose everything before she could become the woman she is now. The old Carol would have followed her husband to zombie town if he'd wanted her to. Now she is self-sufficient, outspoken, and a leader. She isn't perfect, but no one is. I hope she was upset because of the theme of the episode and not because she knows she's off the show. :(

[Jackson5tributeband]

(I did not make any apologies for Carol in my post that you quoted and I did not even mention anything concerning Carol killing Karen and David ... personally I disagree with her doing so and I would like to think that I would never choose to do that in a similar situation but I will explain why I see it as belonging more in a grey area instead of black and white in a moment when I comment on your second post I quoted below.)

I initially took issue with you sanctifying the suffering Tyreese and vilifying the wicked Carol over the Lizzie and Mika situation, and I suppose to some extent I also take issue with you making apologies for Tyreese and doing so in comparison with Carol.

The "suffering" comment alone seemed too ridiculous to believe you were serious - "Tyreese can't be blamed [for what happened with Lizzie], he's so unhinged and damaged that we couldn't expect him to have much insight" I mean truly? Can you please expound on what Tyreese's "suffering" is and why Carol is not?

Carol has been an unhinged and damaged character pre-apocalypse from being a survivor of an abusive husband. Then Carol loses her only child, a defenseless child in a zombie filled world, and once Carol begins to accept, to some degree, that she must give up hope of ever recovering her daughter they find out she has become a zombie - and even though Carol would not want to leave her daughter in that state Carol must witness her trusted group leader shoot her daughter in the head - not fun for any parent for any reason - but Carol survives this too.

But let's look at what Carol has done for the good of the group....

Carol soldiers on trying to be strong for her group as she makes them her family, what she cares about and what she lives for. Carol wants to protect them, essentially "mother" them but does so in a tougher more pragmatic way more suited to this new world order... but at least she is invested and connected. Carol spends time learning from Hershel how to care for the sick and injured, Carol takes a seat on the council when Rick snaps and becomes a farmer, Carol was the one who rightfully told Andrea to slit the Governor's throat in his sleep to save the group - Andrea included, Carol takes responsibility with the children and she even adopts two orphans to care for as she would her own.

Where or what was going on with Tyreese during this time? He met a woman he liked and he spent his time trying to get laid.... Then he acts like a complete lunatic trying to beat Daryl and Rick to death after someone killed this woman, that he only knew for a few weeks, because she was dying from a contagious disease. Was that a horrible situation? Absolutely

This is exactly why I find Carol killing Karen and David in the grey area. I do not agree with Carol's choice but she does accept responsibility and judgment for what she did and I personally find that admirable. When Rick flat out asked Carol if she killed them she did not even flinch and said "yes, I did".

Then the very moment Carol did not have the responsibility to care for those young girls anymore what does she do? Carol slides the gun over to Tyreese, showing she accepts and understands his judgment completely, then confesses - even though it will cost Carol her life. I respect people who take ownership of their actions.

Just because a lot of bad shit happened to her doesn't make her a good person. Bad shit does happen to bad people after all. As for your argument that Carol's suffering somehow explains her actions...hello? Who hasn't gone through terrible suffering on this show? Rick has had to kill his best friend and watch his wife die in childbirth...and you know the rest. Daryl has lost his brother. And so on and so on. These people have, as a rule, not turned into amoral psychopaths with a God complex. I can only put the apologetica for Carol down to the fact she's an older woman, an Earth mom in appearance. She killed two innocent, defenseless people for no good reason. She taught small impressionable children on the importance of being ruthless killers. What's worse is that all her fucked up crap has made things worse for the group and led to the death of innocent people needlessly. She saw what Lizzie was, but rather than do something about it she encouraged her worse traits as she viewed them as a positive in zombieland. Was she right to do that? According to you yes.

My point regarding Tyreese was not that he's suffered more loss than other people but that he's taken it way harder, some people are not as strong as others. He's very recently lost the woman he loved, not just someone he was banging, by murder. He hasn't been able to handle it, he's very damaged and in not capable of rational organised thinking. I do not hold him as accountable as Carol for that reason.

I find the debate over suspension of disbelief in a show about the zombie apocalypse amusing, always. Just like the complaints about the stupid things people do in the show. I had this conversation with a coworker and I asked why the ZA would suddenly create a nation of MENSA candidates. Smart people in this world aren't necessarily the best at surviving in the new world.

As for leaving the kids alone, I wondered aloud about that too to MC but clearly it was meant to be a vehicle to set the murder. which as pointed out in an earlier post, could have happened in the house with everybody there but say, sleeping.

I feel Carol is going to die by season's end. In another discussion with another coworker, he felt she's come full circle, admitted her act, was forgiven and now has an essentially a clean slate (ie no more story to tell really). I also feel that her death will come at the hands of Darryl and his new companions. And I feel this, coupled with losing Beth, and all the other trauma will send him over the edge to perhaps rogue/ruthless. I think that would be interesting though I don't know how it would all fit in with the greater narrative.

It would have been the perfect end to her story arc if Tyreese had just shot her (after he forgave her). A form of much deserved justice for those who have suffered at her hands. However it would have been inconsistent with the previous conversation between the two when Tyreese made clear he wouldn't make it with Little Ass Kicker without her. Shooting Carol would have effectively meant killing the baby, and clearly they wouldn't do that to Tyreese's character. Of course Carol was well aware of that when she handed the gun to Tyreese.

[red snow]

It would have been the perfect end to her story arc if Tyreese had just shot her (after he forgave her). A form of much deserved justice for those who have suffered at her hands. However it would have been inconsistent with the previous conversation between the two when Tyreese made clear he wouldn't make it with Little Ass Kicker without her. Shooting Carol would have effectively meant killing the baby, and clearly they wouldn't do that to Tyreese's character. Of course Carol was well aware of that when she handed the gun to Tyreese.

Would you be happy if he turns around and blows her brains out (shown in glorious slo-mo HD - so we can appreciate the violence) as they pass trough the gates to Terminus and says "told you I ain't forgetting (add expletive as desired)"?

I think Rick will have as much of an issue with Carol being back among them. Thing is it might not be their call when they arrive at Terminus.

[awesome possum]

She saw what Lizzie was

No she didn't. She saw that Lizzie had a hard time accepting that zombies were dead. What possible logical leap could she have made that meant having a hard time accepting that zombies are dead means she is going to start murdering people?

You're trying too hard and are still failing to make any cogent point on this. Your Carol-hate is silly.

My point regarding Tyreese was not that he's suffered more loss than other people but that he's taken it way harder, some people are not as strong as others. He's very recently lost the woman he loved, not just someone he was banging, by murder. He hasn't been able to handle it, he's very damaged and in not capable of rational organised thinking. I do not hold him as accountable as Carol for that reason.

Oh, the man lost his girlfriend of a couple months and he's very damaged and not capable of rational thinking. Let's pity him. The woman lost her husband, her daughter, and several of her close friends... she's just a murderous bitch who deserves to die.

It's almost like this thread has a huge sign on it out front that says, "Wacko opinions! Bring your wacko opinions, right here! Step right up!"

[Gertrude]

It would have been the perfect end to her story arc if Tyreese had just shot her (after he forgave her). A form of much deserved justice for those who have suffered at her hands.

If Tyreese did this, wouldn't he become what he is condemning Carol for? If Tyreese were to shoot her out of vengeance (and let's be clear, it would be vengeance and not justice) I see that as a much worse action than Carol killing for what she thought was essentially self-defense.

Or would he get a pass because he's still distraught?

[Jackson5tributeband]

No she didn't. She saw that Lizzie had a hard time accepting that zombies were dead. What possible logical leap could she have made that meant having a hard time accepting that zombies are dead means she is going to start murdering people?

You're trying too hard and are still failing to make any cogent point on this. Your Carol-hate is silly.

Oh, the man lost his girlfriend of a couple months and he's very damaged and not capable of rational thinking. Let's pity him. The woman lost her husband, her daughter, and several of her close friends... she's just a murderous bitch who deserves to die.

It's almost like this thread has a huge sign on it out front that says, "Wacko opinions! Bring your wacko opinions, right here! Step right up!"

How many innocent people has Tyreese killed? Remind me of the time he walked into an isolated room and murdered two defenseless, sick people because he perceived them as a 'threat'. Tyreese was in love, very deeply. You might think that implausible but that's the way it was written in the script so your opinion on that is worthless. People react to grief in different ways, in the case of Tyreese it's put him into a dis associative state. That's also the way his character has been written so again your opinion on the degree of his suffering is worth ten kinds of nothing. Lastly she as sure as fuck knew Lizzie wasn't right. Put yourself in her place, you've seen a girl, very recently, play tag with a flesh eating monster, feed captured mice to another one so 'she can make friends' and finally say a a ton of weird ass shit whilst you were chatting. So straight after that you decide to go off for a stroll and leave her in charge of two smaller children....yeah K. Am I saying Carol knew that Lizzie was capable of murdering her own sister, no but she for damn sure knew that Lizzie had a severe problem and rather than try and help her she encouraged her worse traits as a 'survival tool'.

Would you be happy if he turns around and blows her brains out (shown in glorious slo-mo HD - so we can appreciate the violence) as they pass trough the gates to Terminus and says "told you I ain't forgetting (add expletive as desired)"?

I think Rick will have as much of an issue with Carol being back among them. Thing is it might not be their call when they arrive at Terminus.

Nothing personal, I liked her character in season 1 when others were hating on her. I've found her growth into a warrior princess a bit cliched, but I get it's appeal. However her all round craziness and self justifying sociopathic bullshit is becoming wearing. Her character arc is complete, her passive aggressive manipulative BS reached it's natural conclusion when she shot Lizzie in the head. However the writers have decided to keep her around, I suspect so she can cause even more mayhem. I doubt Tyreese will kill her, it would be contradict his personality as written. Far more likely to be Rick.

[Jackson5tributeband]

If Tyreese did this, wouldn't he become what he is condemning Carol for? If Tyreese were to shoot her out of vengeance (and let's be clear, it would be vengeance and not justice) I see that as a much worse action than Carol killing for what she thought was essentially self-defense.

Or would he get a pass because he's still distraught?

Not at all, the whole point would be Tyreese forgiving her. He forgives but nonetheless justice is served. Carol put down innocents for no good reason, on any level she deserves to die. I think it's a shame the writers chose not to let Tyreese do it, I think it would have been a satisfactory end to her character arc.

[Alia of the knife]

I see this scenario as a device that allows Tyreese to forgive Carol. He agreed on what needed to happen, but its unlikely he would have been able to do it.

Martin does the same thing with Jon and Gillys baby.

[awesome possum]

How many innocent people has Tyreese killed? Remind me of the time he walked into an isolated room and murdered two defenseless, sick people because he perceived them as a 'threat'. Tyreese was in love, very deeply. You might think that implausible but that's the way it was written in the script so your opinion on that is worthless. People react to grief in different ways, in the case of Tyreese it's put him into a dis associative state. That's also the way his character has been written so again your opinion on the degree of his suffering is worth ten kinds of nothing. Lastly she as sure as fuck knew Lizzie wasn't right. Put yourself in her place, you've seen a girl, very recently, play tag with a flesh eating monster, feed captured mice to another one so 'she can make friends' and finally say a a ton of weird ass shit whilst you were chatting. So straight after that you decide to go off for a stroll and leave her in charge of two smaller children....yeah K. Am I saying Carol knew that Lizzie was capable of murdering her own sister, no but she for damn sure knew that Lizzie had a severe problem and rather than try and help her she encouraged her worse traits as a 'survival tool'.

You know, I was going to go through your points one by one but I don't think I'm going to bother. I will address one part, putting myself in Carol's place as you said.

I'm in Carol's place. I saw a girl, very recently, play tag with a zombie. I never saw that girl feeding mice to one so she can make friends. They didn't discover that until after Mika was dead, so let's strike that one off your list. Finally, I watch her say a ton of weird ass shit while I was chatting with her... and by weird ass shit I mean she says she understands what she has to do after I ask her if she understands that zombies aren't people. She understands what she has to do now, a couple hours after she stepped in to help kill the crispy zombie swarm.

I am curious, what "worse" traits did Carol encourage?

So let's see, delusional about zombies and says weird ass shit (that only seems weird to the audience because we have much more knowledge of the situation). Yep, she surely must be planning on murdering her beloved little sister and the baby she helped save from death just days before. :rolleyes:

In conclusion, I'm going to repeat your words back to you. Take them to heart:

You might think that implausible but that's the way it was written in the script so your opinion on that is worthless.