Jaime's Missed Line [Spoilers]

[Clariana]

The entire exchange was really weak. Also, Tywin's apathy towards Jaime's decision was odd, considering Jaime was his only heir.

Jaime is not the only heir, this is Tywin's tragedy, his blindness, Tyrion actually wants Casterly Rock and would make an extremely good successor to Tywin but his father cannot see the man beyond the disability.

[Khal Shaggydog]

The deer gutting scene wasn't invented - it just wasn't Tywin's in the books. That was Randyll Tarly, when he was giving a similar type of "you are my first born son but not as tough as me" type speech to Samwell.

But it did raise the stakes a bit - as Tywin, the lion, was skinning an elk, the Baratheon....

[MarieAntoinette]

in the books isnt tywin basically verbally disowning jaime? i was amongst people and talking but, i didnt get that initial impression. it just seemed like a verbal spat

Didn't Tywin kind of disown him on the show too? He said that A man without family needs all the help he can get. He was more calm and subtle about it but doesn't this imply that he no longer considers him his son.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

It wasn't like the exchange in the books, but the timing is also off with Jaime being in KL before the wedding and all of that - so I'm thinking there will probably be another similar more angry conversation after the PW events go down.

[coatzin]

I actually liked "What you want?", "Supper would be nice."

Supper > Rock.

Just as Tyrion response to Shagga or some other savage... "how do you like to die?"... :P

[GHOSTSTARK]

yea was expecting Tywin to be a little more pissed at Jaime. i liked the way they showed Jaime standing up to Tywin though, besides Tyrion is some situations Jaime is the only person to get his way with Tywin

[JesterX]

yea was expecting Tywin to be a little more pissed at Jaime. i liked the way they showed Jaime standing up to Tywin though, besides Tyrion is some situations Jaime is the only person to get his way with Tywin

I agree. I was saying in another forum that Jaime is the only Tywin kid who neither wants, nor seeks his approval. In some ways, you could say it's the other way around. That Tywin kind of seeks Jaime's approval.

I mean, Tywin is renowned for answering every slight, real or perceived. It would be more than consistent with his character and history to have Joffrey revoke Jaime's Kingsguard status, out of pure spite. I mean think about it, Jaime turned down Casterly Rock to remain in the Kingsguard and suddenly he has neither Casterly Rock NOR the Kingsguard. That's vintage Tywin. Yet not only does he not do that, but he also let's Jaime keep the sword. That reeks of buying Jaime's affection.

['96Buck]

I think the point will be that Tywin currently expects to win this and get his way, in the end, so he's not all that putoff yet. He will be surprised, then, that Jamie's got a little more steel to him now than he had when he set off to pursue the war, and we will see the impact of the travels with Brienne and his psychological adaptation to losing his hand. And THEN he will go off.

Since I suspect we won't see nearly as much of Jamie traipsing about in the Riverlands as in the book, they have to have some means to SHOW, not TELL, his character development.

A different relationship with his father than before is a good way, IMO, to do this.

[Ser Oromus Locke]

"A man without family needs all the help he can get"

That has to hurt

Disowned by your father

Ignored by your lover/sister

Berated by your son

Ouch.. I guess he only has Tyrion to fall back on. Pretty sure that will work out swell.

I think the point will be that Tywin currently expects to win this and get his way, in the end, so he's not all that putoff yet. He will be surprised, then, that Jamie's got a little more steel to him now than he had when he set off to pursue the war, and we will see the impact of the travels with Brienne and his psychological adaptation to losing his hand. And THEN he will go off.

Since I suspect we won't see nearly as much of Jamie traipsing about in the Riverlands as in the book, they have to have some means to SHOW, not TELL, his character development.

A different relationship with his father than before is a good way, IMO, to do this.

The whole thing with Jaime arriving in KL before the royal wedding basically means that they have to partially stretch some scenes that led to another.

[six]

Dudes, first episode. Tywin smashed the Starks by patiently writing letters. Going with the show's interpretation, he has his somewhat wayward golden child back. He's even given him an infinity + 1 sword. He can wear him down...so he thinks. He's annoyed, but for Jaime he has a higher "I've had it with your shit" threshold than with his other kiddos. It's going to escalate for sure.

Yes, agreed. I'm sure this won't be the final exchange they have, because there's so much to come and they'll milk the Lannisters imploding on themselves for the whole season. There will be more, that's why I'm not bothered by that scene.

[greywindsrage]

I actually liked "What you want?", "Supper would be nice."

Supper > Rock.

:agree:

[greywindsrage]

I was definitely expecting a slightly angrier exchange, given that the rift is so important, but having watched the scene several times, I think the quieter approach is actually very clever and there is considerable subtlety in NCW's acting. Sometimes things that are quietly spoken can be just as powerful. Jaime started off just as he did in the book: of course he could fight with his left hand! And the old arrogance - he doesn't have to be up to his previous standard, just better than everyone else. And then Tywin's attempt to bully him into leaving the KG and taking over at Casterly Rock. Tywin has always seen Jaime as his real heir, has always wanted to get him out of the KG, and the last thing he obviously expected was Jaime's very quiet No, repeated the same way. Tywin is just not used to people saying No to him, especially not his children.

Which made me remember the (invented) Season 3 scenes where Tywin bullied Cersei and Tyrion and both of them reacted angrily and bitterly, and in Cersei's case, loudly. Neither of them was able to say No to Daddy. You expected Tyrion to try to stand up to Tywin, and also expected him to fail, but I don't think show-only viewers saw this coming with Jaime, so I thought that both the tone of the scene and the fact that Jaime does say No, were a great contrast. Back in Season 1 Jaime was pretty cowed by Tywin in that (again invented) deer-gutting scene, yet now he has found the strength to stand up to his father. Yes, he wants to stay in KL and be with Cersei, but you also wonder about Brienne's influence on his newfound sense of honour. And an interesting ending: the air of casual bravado as he says that Tywin will obviously want the sword back, Tywin's very cutting remark as he disowns Jaime, and the way Jaime just takes the sword and marches out with a 'couldn't care less' air. Which you know is going to be hiding tremendous hurt.

:agree:

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

It wasn't like the exchange in the books, but the timing is also off with Jaime being in KL before the wedding and all of that - so I'm thinking there will probably be another similar more angry conversation after the PW events go down.

i agree. I think they're playing a "slower game" with the Jamie V. Tywin dynamic and letting it grow organically onscreen for unsullied viewers who may have missed how things have built up to this moment. Book readers have to know that there will be a major event coming that should cause a real shakeup in the family dynamics around Kings Landing.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Dudes, first episode. Tywin smashed the Starks by patiently writing letters. Going with the show's interpretation, he has his somewhat wayward golden child back. He's even given him an infinity + 1 sword. He can wear him down...so he thinks. He's annoyed, but for Jaime he has a higher "I've had it with your shit" threshold than with his other kiddos. It's going to escalate for sure.

ITA, and hope that's the way it goes down. Even in the books, Jaime was sent the sword after the fight. I'm figuring that they'll have the serious showdown sometime after Joff's death. Hell, with all the show differences, especially in Joffrey, it's a good thing for Jaime that he's dying, he'd have been Barristan'd by his own son, for sure.

[Shebara]

in the books isnt tywin basically verbally disowning jaime? i was amongst people and talking but, i didnt get that initial impression. it just seemed like a verbal spat

well he verbally disowned him when telling him...well you can take the sword nonetheless, a man without a family needs every help he can get!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I didn't understand the "man without a family" as a disowning but rather something along the lines "a man with no wife and kids, with no hand, would need all possible help even to wipe his own ass". Or worst "you stay for your woman and children but they aren't yours".

I doubt showTywin will disown him so soon. He's patient and will try to find a way for him to do his will.

[KeeperOfOaths]

I agree. I was saying in another forum that Jaime is the only Tywin kid who neither wants, nor seeks his approval. In some ways, you could say it's the other way around. That Tywin kind of seeks Jaime's approval.

I mean, Tywin is renowned for answering every slight, real or perceived. It would be more than consistent with his character and history to have Joffrey revoke Jaime's Kingsguard status, out of pure spite. I mean think about it, Jaime turned down Casterly Rock to remain in the Kingsguard and suddenly he has neither Casterly Rock NOR the Kingsguard. That's vintage Tywin. Yet not only does he not do that, but he also let's Jaime keep the sword. That reeks of buying Jaime's affection.

I don't think this is correct. I think Jaime does want his father 's approval. I don't know why he manages to say no, though.

Maybe because he does not want the Rock/power, so he needs his father's approval a little less than Cercei and Tyrion who want the Rock/power.

Maybe because he can make a living without Tywin, whereas Cercei and Tyrion not so much!! I don't know. It would be interesting to debate.

I agree, however with everything that Currawong said. I personally loved the scene. All of it. And I think that this is not the final confrontation between these two. I think that Tywin actually thinks that he will convince Jaime at some point. And they will have another confrontation when Tywin realizes this is not true. I don't know what Jaime thinks, though. Does he think that Tywin may come around and accept him just as he is? Very unlikely.

Loved the fact that on the contrary to the stag scene in season 1, Jaime does have a voice here!!

[Janicia]

Tywin takes tremendous pride in his control over each situation. He sees yelling as losing control and as a deep personal failure. The only time I can remember him yelling in the series was when Jaime was captured and his council was being useless "They have my son". Tywin gets quiet angry. He could have kept the sword or thrown out threats or whatever, but that risked coming off as petty and out of control. I agree with the people that Tywin definitely doens't seem Jaime's kingsguard status as settled.

But at the same time, I didn't feel this scene sparkled in the way that most of Tywin's scenes sparkle.

[Tyrion's Third Wife]

The entire exchange was really weak. Also, Tywin's apathy towards Jaime's decision was odd, considering Jaime was his only heir.

Not his only heir ... just his preferred heir.

Back up is Tyrion's children (not Tyrion himself) - which is why he is pressing him to knock up Sansa.

[Envie]

Disowned by your father

Ignored by your lover/sister

Berated by your son

Exactly!

Man Jaime got the bitchslap this entire episode. I really felt sorry for him and I think that's exactly the angle they were going for. It was more spread out in the book and Jaime had a lot more harsh words to say back at his Father (it was definitely an angrier confrontation) in the book too. They condensed it all into one episode to show Jaime's really at an all time low but that this is part of his 'transformation' that many of us love so much from the books.

As for the scene with Tywin, I thought it was really well done. I disagree with others who felt it fell flat or was too restrained. That's exactly how Tywin is defined - restrained and a simmering cauldron. He's not the explosive type. Sure, he raised his voice to Cersei but she's his daughter and he has much less respect for her because she's simply a marriage tool to him which is what she hates the most. Jaime on the other hand (har har) is his supposed heir and the strong, skilled fighting male whose just lost his hand and a lot of dignity from being captured, etc. Tywin's containing a lot there purposely and I think they handled it right. Having him explode just because Jaime said "No" wouldn't really be appropriate in my opinion. He's keeping it in check because he respects Jaime and probably because he may still believe there's a chance Jaime can just be 'dismissed' by the king the way Barristan was. But at the same time the disgrace of that would be even worse for Jaime's esteem so Tywin probably doesn't really want that to happen either and will prevent Joffrey from doing that. He needs Jaime to step down voluntarily and honorably to be heir to Casterly Rock.

Also, I liked a previous comment someone made (don't have the quote up) about Tywin refusing to see beyond Tyrion's disability as the much more suitable heir to Casterly Rock. Tyrion has the brains for it and yeah, actually wants that life for himself as a real Lord and not just a disfigured second son.