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[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

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Not if they keep to the seasonal timeline in the books.

Is it winter in Kings Landing as of Dance with Dragons? I must have forgotten that... I know it's snowing furiously in the North but I guess I missed that it had come to KL.

Edited: yep, there it is, right there in the epilogue. I have no attention to detail.

Edited by DebL66

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What happened to make Cersei hate Pycelle so much anyway? Has she always been like that, or did I miss something?

I think they are just trying to set her up as ultra-mean bitch for the show. They did stuff early in series (imaginary black-haired child who died, etc.) to make her more sympathetic and now they have to compensate for that. As far as I can tell, the only thing that Pycelle ever did to her was try to keep Jaime out of the delivery room when she was giving birth to Joffrey. He's the one who told her about Myrcella going to Dorne, so she should be grateful to him.

Of course, she could just think he's a dirty old man who enjoyed examining young women (including herself) far too much.

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This is absolutely not the case. After Joffrey drinks the wine that Tyrion pours him, the pie comes and Joffrey gives his goblet to Margery so he can grab his sword and cut the pigeon pie. Margery puts the goblet on the table in front of Queen of Thorns. That's where the goblet is when Joffrey cuts the pie. The next time he drinks from the goblet he dies.

See here: http://imgur.com/a/2DtPH

Yeah different table.... 10 feet away from QoT and in front of a knight....

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I think they are just trying to set her up as ultra-mean bitch for the show. They did stuff early in series (imaginary black-haired child who died, etc.) to make her more sympathetic and now they have to compensate for that. As far as I can tell, the only thing that Pycelle ever did to her was try to keep Jaime out of the delivery room when she was giving birth to Joffrey. He's the one who told her about Myrcella going to Dorne, so she should be grateful to him.

Of course, she could just think he's a dirty old man who enjoyed examining young women (including herself) far too much.

It seems like Qyburn all ready has some influence over her, he and Pycelle hate each other, so maybe he has had an effect on how she views Pycelle.

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It seems like Qyburn all ready has some influence over her, he and Pycelle hate each other, so maybe he has had an effect on how she views Pycelle.

That's plausible. Also Show!Pycelle is a super creeper, so it could be that.

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Having just watched the episode on a slightly bigger screen I'm certain that Marg puts the cup on the edge of her and Joff's table and it only looks like it is in front of Olenna because of the camera angle. If Olenna was the one to put the poison in she would of had to get up and walked over to the table. I am starting to believe, again, that we may get a second reveal about this murder on top of the LF/QOT plot.

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I was thinking that too! But the "plink" seems to be when she's in front of Marg, and Joff dumps his wine out on Tyrion's head afterwards. It's possible it's slower moving poison (a deviation from the book), but I think it's likelier the poison goes in the cup around the time of the cake cutting. So Marg could have just done it with some good slight-of-hand, or maybe Olenna does it when the camera isn't focused on her (when he slashes the sword).

It's also possible we're completely overanalyzing...maybe there's a different shot or angle that didn't make the final edits. But yeah, just thought I'd add that screenshot to muddy the waters ;)

EDIT:

You can see Marg's hands with the goblet (as she's placing it down) are blocked by Joff for a few frames here: http://i.imgur.com/XxwPm9B.png?1

And then Marg is the one pointing Tyrion towards the cup after the cake cutting, here: http://i.imgur.com/uKhSTQs.png?1

Interesting screen shots. Yeah, I tried to get a closer look when I re-watched the episode. Olenna takes the gem from the necklace almost 20 minutes before he actually dies. No wonder the unsullied have no idea what is going on....my husband thinks they poisoned the pie. I know what happens and still I don't see anything definitive that points to them poisoning the wine. It must happen off camera.

Edited by TheRatCook

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Because Sansa was a normal girl who thought Joffery was cute when the show started......... Nothing wrong with that.

Not only Sansa. Everybody thought the King was ok.

Then, he proved them all wrong in the same episode.

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Interesting screen shots. Yeah, I tried to get a closer look when I re-watched the episode. Olenna takes the gem from the necklace almost 20 minutes before he actually dies. No wonder the unsullied have no idea what is going on....my husband thinks they poisoned the pie. I know what happens and still I don't see anything definitive that points to them poisoning the wine. It must happen off camera.

That's my thought too. But interesting note on this subject...after Olenna "plinks" it in front of Margery, the next shot is Margery leaning her elbow on the table looking "bored" at the singers (she's too calculating to ever do that without reason), and then when she tells Joff to "make the announcement," one of her hands is below the table. My guess is that's when she swept the gem out of sight.

Unless the QoT and Marg decide to give us a play-by-play recap next episode, we may never know, but the framing is fascinating and I now can't get through that scene without watching Tyrell hands.

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Man can't keep up I'm heading to page 21; any way some people think the blond Miranda and Ramsey are chasing is the same girl with Miranda and Theon, she's not, in the Theon castration Miranda tells Theon that they came of there own will and it's just him Miranda and Violet ( the Blond) Tansy is the hunted girl in 4-2 episode.


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Having just watched the episode on a slightly bigger screen I'm certain that Marg puts the cup on the edge of her and Joff's table and it only looks like it is in front of Olenna because of the camera angle. If Olenna was the one to put the poison in she would of had to get up and walked over to the table. I am starting to believe, again, that we may get a second reveal about this murder on top of the LF/QOT plot.

That's were Marg places it, yet when Tyrion picks it up , from the camera angle it seems closer to Olenna than where it was put down.

That might be a continuity error.

Or maybe in the pigeon hooha it got moved.

I notice oddly that before Sansa hands the cup to Tyrion her left hand passes over the top of the cup.

Then Marg handles the cup and we really can't see where her hands are all the time.

(Now I don't think Sansa dropped the crystal in the cup, but it's odd.)

Just saying.

Edited by boojam

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There's too much clinking of plates and forks to hear a clink MHO. Now if someone heard a ploink...

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There's too much clinking of plates and forks to hear a clink MHO. Now if someone heard a ploink...

One funny thing that I may not have understood, was that you don't need even a very small crystal of the Strangler... at least that what I remember.

You only need like a milligram, the stuff is so potent.

So that's a puzzle too.

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That's were Marg places it, yet when Tyrion picks it up , from the camera angle it seems closer to Olenna than where it was put down.

That might be a continuity error.

Or maybe in the pigeon hooha it got moved.

I notice oddly that before Sansa hands the cup to Tyrion her left hand passes over the top of the cup.

Then Marg handles the cup and we really can't see where her hands are all the time.

(Now I don't think Sansa dropped the crystal in the cup, but it's odd.)

Just saying.

But how the hell did Olenna give the poison to Marg in the first place? That "plink" sound is would be from Joffrey's chalice. And how would Joffrey not see it? The drop off from Olenna to Marg I mean.

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The more I think it about it the more it seems Margery had to at least know. Would Olenna really risk her beloved granddaughter drinking/eating from the same tainted object?? I think not. However, if Margery acts completely surprised tomorrow I'm going to be very confused.

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The more I think it about it the more it seems Margery had to at least know. Would Olenna really risk her beloved granddaughter drinking/eating from the same tainted object?? I think not. However, if Margery acts completely surprised tomorrow I'm going to be very confused.

If Margaery didn't know that would just be.. stupid. They've both been planning this for a while, and like you said, Olenna would never risk poisoning the wine without Margaery knowing. I think she's just pissed that it's taking so long for her to get her crown.

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It's never confirmed in the books though is it? When I read it I didn't really consider if she knew or not because I wasn't reanalyzing what I had just read for enjoyment (until I found Westeros), but I believe we just have confirmations about QOT and Littlefinger.

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About if Margaery knew or not, In the preview for 4x03 she says "but I would have been the Queen!" which seems to imply that she has no idea of Olenna's plotting. But maybe that's just weird out of context


Edited by Obebb

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couple things

1. joffers died like a bitch :))))))

2. i feel so bad for theon by now. and yes. theon. i refuse to call him that other name. the shaving scene was aweful to watch. and "yes master" so sad. im curious to see what my show watcher only friends say about him.

3. whats up with shae? and whats up with bronn? is he turning on tyrion? if so, i dont like it. its one thing to not want to die for him, but openly betraying him would be much worse.

Bronn always describes himself as a "sell-sword." It's obvious that a mercenary will sell his "loyalty" to the highest bidder. Tywin Lannister is the richest manin the Seven Kingdoms. Surely it was only a matter of time before Bronn sold out Tyrion to Tywin?

The only question for me is how soon will we learn Shae's fate (our really, how soon in the season will Tyrion learn Shae's fate and thus learn how Bronn has deserted him.)

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