Thoughts on bonding with and taming dragons

[MoIaF]

We are going to have to agree to disagree cause I dont believe in theories where characters futures are based off previous characters that have lived a different life and died.

It's like what Tyrion said “It all goes back and back," Tyrion thought, "to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance in our steads.”

We are shown past events and we are given the novellas so that we may understand how current events have came to past. The current characters (in ASOIAF) are now dealing with he consequences of the acts of those that came before them, how our current characters deal with those consequences is much more dependent on their current circumstances and their experiences.

Yeah. To clarify it's Rhaenys "The Queen Who Never Was" not Aegon's sister who died in Drone.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Ygrain]

Yeah. To clarify it's Rhaenys "The Queen Who Never Was" not Aegon's sister who died in Drone.

Ah. Thanks for both :-)

Yet another non-fireproof Targ, right?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It's like what Tyrion said “It all goes back and back," Tyrion thought, "to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance in our steads.”

We are shown past events and we are given the novellas so that we may understand how current events have came to past. The current characters (in ASOIAF) are now dealing with he consequences of the acts of those that came before them, how our current characters deal with those consequences is much more dependent on their current circumstances and their experiences.

Thanks for clarifying.

Exactly

It even cheapens the work for the author to just repeat storylines of the past into the future.

Stannis was in a similar situation to Rhaenyra but his storyline played out completely differently.

The same can be said of Cersei aswell.

And also for all the comparisons people are making of Dany and Rhaenyra, Dany didn't go mad after her husband, child and brother died.

As you stated situations could be similar but the outcome is always different.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It's like Arianne thinks in the WoW sample chapter (paraphrasing, can't look for the actual quote right now):

A hundred years ago, a Daenerys Targaryen came to Dorne to make peace, now another one comes to make war

Also showing that even though there are many parallells in history, the outcome will most likely be different.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Ah. Thanks for both :-)

Yet another non-fireproof Targ, right?

None of them are fireproof. SSM; 'some of the Targaryens have a higher-tolerance to heat than ordinary people', Dany is definitely one of them, Egg is as well, based on Dunk's comments about him. But none are fireproof, please I dont want to turn this into a discussion about that.

[Ygrain]

None of them are fireproof. SSM; 'some of the Targaryens have a higher-tolerance to heat than ordinary people', Dany is definitely one of them, Egg is as well, based on Dunk's comments about him. But none are fireproof, please I dont want to turn this into a discussion about that.

I'm sorry, I just remembered some heated claims of fireproof Dany and couldn't resist :-)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'm sorry, I just remembered some heated claims of fireproof Dany and couldn't resist :-)

Yes when I first read the books I did think she was, but then I got on the forum and had everything explained to me and I have admitted to being wrong about that, she has more tolerance than ordinary people, but is not immune. I realized I was wrong about that like over a year ago.

[Ygrain]

Yes when I first read the books I did think she was, but then I got on the forum and had everything explained to me and I have admitted to being wrong about that, she has more tolerance than ordinary people, but is not immune. I realized I was wrong about that like over a year ago.

Just to make things clear between us: I didn't mean you.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Just to make things clear between us: I didn't mean you.

Haha oh ok

[Suzanna Stormborn]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107636-book-spoilers-rlj-and-other-theories-on-hbo/page-2

Everyone please come discuss the HBO show on this thread, any theories or anything we regularly discuss on the book forum that is backed up by the show can be discussed there :) I want to have good discussion about the show as it pertains to the books. (whispers)--but that will only happen if you guys are there :)

[Parwan]

Two matters that I believe are worthy of consideration:

1. The dragons reach out to Dany. This, as far as I can tell, makes her case different from that of other potential and would-be dragonlords. Her initial problem is not "How do I get, tame, and control a dragon?" It is "What is happening?" and "How do I respond?" This is another way in which her experience is similar to Bran's. He has not been brought up with any sort of "How do Starks handle the warg business?" orientation.

Indeed, Dany initially distances herself from "the dragon." In her first POV, we get Viserys going off on one of his tirades.

"The dragon remembers."

And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not.

Later, her first "dragon dream" is a nightmare. So, a good part of Dany's challenge is handling herself, trying to figure out what she is and what she is supposed to do. Her relationship to her three "children" has to be seen in this light.

2. The whole business with the horn and the Iron Islanders is excessively weird. Honestly, you sail half way around the world with this strange instrument which you do not understand. It has writing on it which you cannot read. It killed the one guy who blew it, and he died horribly. Not only have you never seen the thing used in the presence of a dragon, you have never even seen a dragon. What was your "plan" here? Was it, "Don't worry. We'll pull this creepy red priest out of the drink, and he'll explain everything to us"? Now, lots of people in ASoIaF do stupid stuff, but your "plan" takes the cake. Ned Stark looks like a prize student of Machiavelli next to you.

My read on the issue: I don't think that the warlocks are out of the game. I started a thread once suggesting that the warlocks have Euron. They aren't the slaves at all; they are the masters. I don't insist on this interpretation. There could be some kind of alliance or an uneasy agreement between the two parties. I doubt, however, that Pree and co. are just slaves. It definitely seems to me that, in terms of magic, the real players on the Iron Fleet aren't Ironmen. Victarion has a great ability to fight, and some skill as a tactician. But I think the more important struggle will be between Moqorro and the dusky woman (maybe a warlock herself, or an agent or a tool of the warlocks). I don't believe that either of them has full knowledge of how to use the horn, but both of them know a great deal more than the captain of the fleet. When it gets to crunch time, neither of them will have a motive to help Victarion, except in as far as such help may be a matter of using him as a tool.

[Fire Eater]

I think if any thing Dany's bond with Drogon is subtle, if thats your reasoning that means Bran's bond with summer will break? Cause thats the strongest bond in the book confirmed by grrm.

I wouldn't call it subtle. He comes back to Meereen, and she rides him. He is also with her, and saves her when she goes back into the HotU.

And actually all the examples of impressions you gave aren't "gotcha" moments. GRRM leaves clues before he does something to shock the readers he doesn't do "gotcha" moments, he even stated this in an interview. Jon being Ned's son isnt an impression as there are clues available for the reader to know he is not. Also if you are thinking like that then that means Bran will also lose his dire wolf cause his bond is unbreakable and so will Jon and I doubt that will happen.

I have yet to seen any clues that point towards Jon warging Drogon away from Dany..

He does do gotcha moments, the clues point one way, but impressions the other. Nothing explicitly states Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's, and everyone states how much he looks like Ned along with Jon referring to that often, so being Ned's son is the impression. R+L=J is only the impression if you studied the text closely with plenty of readers not having puzzled out R+L=J for themselves.

"Snow."

Sam glanced up at the sound. Lord Commander Mormont's raven was circling the fire, beating the air with wide black wings.

Drogon's wide black wings beat the air.

Lord Mormont's raven goes to Jon.

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him [Drogon], smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands.

Once a man had said the words his blood was black.

In the cold night air the [Jon's] wound was smoking.

The way Jon and Drogon were attacked have similar descriptions. They were both stabbed in the back in similar locations with their wounds described as smoking. Drogon was stabbed during Dany's attempted assassination, and Jon was stabbed during his. Besides, as Jon said, black was always his color. He shares a few references to black dragons in ASoS and AFfC.

I am going to have to agree with the others that I really dont see Jon warging or riding Drogon. As for the other 2 dragons...maybe, but he has Ghost, how many awesomely magical animals does one character get?

Three for Dany. Is three dragons for Dany okay, but one dragon and one direwolf for Jon, two animals, too much?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I wouldn't call it subtle. He comes back to Meereen, and she rides him. He is also with her, and saves her when she goes back into the HotU.

He does do gotcha moments, the clues point one way, but impressions the other. Nothing explicitly states Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's, and everyone states how much he looks like Ned along with Jon referring to that often, so being Ned's son is the impression. R+L=J is only the impression if you studied the text closely with plenty of readers not having puzzled out R+L=J for themselves.

"Snow."

Sam glanced up at the sound. Lord Commander Mormont's raven was circling the fire, beating the air with wide black wings.

Drogon's wide black wings beat the air.

Lord Mormont's raven goes to Jon.

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him [Drogon], smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands.

Once a man had said the words his blood was black.

In the cold night air the [Jon's] wound was smoking.

The way Jon and Drogon were attacked have similar descriptions. They were both stabbed in the back in similar locations with their wounds described as smoking. Drogon was stabbed during Dany's attempted assassination, and Jon was stabbed during his. Besides, as Jon said, black was always his color. He shares a few references to black dragons in ASoS and AFfC.

Three for Dany. Is three dragons for Dany okay, but one dragon and one direwolf for Jon, two animals, too much?

Its subtle because Dany has no dragonlore or someone like Jojen that told Bran about his bond to Summer

He said in an interview that he doesnt do gotcha moments though, he said he believes in leaving clues and there are clearly clues for Jon's parentage.

I still don't see how that is a clue for Jon warging Drogon. Jon's smoking wounds are just due to him being in cold weather and Drogon has hot blood.

And I dont see how the wings connect, how else was GRRM supposed to write it? I'm sure I can find other examples like that in the book that arent foreshadowing.

If anything Bran is the only character that there are clues of him warging a dragon, because hes the most powerful warg amongst the stark children and has been promised that he will fly.

Dany may have 3 dragons but she didnt get them on a silver platter, she sacrificed her husband and son, and sacrificed MMD. So there is a difference between how Dany got her dragons compared to Jon just warging one and taking it, GRRM doesnt make things that easy, and even if its that easy there is a price to pay.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Two matters that I believe are worthy of consideration:

1. The dragons reach out to Dany. This, as far as I can tell, makes her case different from that of other potential and would-be dragonlords. Her initial problem is not "How do I get, tame, and control a dragon?" It is "What is happening?" and "How do I respond?" This is another way in which her experience is similar to Bran's. He has not been brought up with any sort of "How do Starks handle the warg business?" orientation.

Indeed, Dany initially distances herself from "the dragon." In her first POV, we get Viserys going off on one of his tirades.

Later, her first "dragon dream" is a nightmare. So, a good part of Dany's challenge is handling herself, trying to figure out what she is and what she is supposed to do. Her relationship to her three "children" has to be seen in this light.

2. The whole business with the horn and the Iron Islanders is excessively weird. Honestly, you sail half way around the world with this strange instrument which you do not understand. It has writing on it which you cannot read. It killed the one guy who blew it, and he died horribly. Not only have you never seen the thing used in the presence of a dragon, you have never even seen a dragon. What was your "plan" here? Was it, "Don't worry. We'll pull this creepy red priest out of the drink, and he'll explain everything to us"? Now, lots of people in ASoIaF do stupid stuff, but your "plan" takes the cake. Ned Stark looks like a prize student of Machiavelli next to you.

My read on the issue: I don't think that the warlocks are out of the game. I started a thread once suggesting that the warlocks have Euron. They aren't the slaves at all; they are the masters. I don't insist on this interpretation. There could be some kind of alliance or an uneasy agreement between the two parties. I doubt, however, that Pree and co. are just slaves. It definitely seems to me that, in terms of magic, the real players on the Iron Fleet aren't Ironmen. Victarion has a great ability to fight, and some skill as a tactician. But I think the more important struggle will be between Moqorro and the dusky woman (maybe a warlock herself, or an agent or a tool of the warlocks). I don't believe that either of them has full knowledge of how to use the horn, but both of them know a great deal more than the captain of the fleet. When it gets to crunch time, neither of them will have a motive to help Victarion, except in as far as such help may be a matter of using him as a tool.

I completely agree. To me, the horn seems like a very loose cannon, and I can basically guarantee it is not going to work as perfectly as Euron thinks it will. I agree the Dusky woman is working for the warlocks, i dont think the warlocks are slaves either. I think they have planned the entire ironborn scenario and are pulling the strings on Victarion via Euron.

And about Dany, I agree again, she inherently is figuring out what to do with the dragons, same way she figured out how to make them hatch. It was just a natural instinct she had, no one taught her anything at all. In fact all the info she had received about her family and dragons from Viserys was pretty much wrong. So not only did she have to accept the fact that the only link to her family history was totally full of shit, but she then had to make up her own mind (without discussion with anyone else) about how to move forward with everything.

I wouldn't call it subtle. He comes back to Meereen, and she rides him. He is also with her, and saves her when she goes back into the HotU.

He does do gotcha moments, the clues point one way, but impressions the other. Nothing explicitly states Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's, and everyone states how much he looks like Ned along with Jon referring to that often, so being Ned's son is the impression. R+L=J is only the impression if you studied the text closely with plenty of readers not having puzzled out R+L=J for themselves.

"Snow."

Sam glanced up at the sound. Lord Commander Mormont's raven was circling the fire, beating the air with wide black wings.

Drogon's wide black wings beat the air.

Lord Mormont's raven goes to Jon.

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him [Drogon], smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands.

Once a man had said the words his blood was black.

In the cold night air the [Jon's] wound was smoking.

The way Jon and Drogon were attacked have similar descriptions. They were both stabbed in the back in similar locations with their wounds described as smoking. Drogon was stabbed during Dany's attempted assassination, and Jon was stabbed during his. Besides, as Jon said, black was always his color. He shares a few references to black dragons in ASoS and AFfC.

Three for Dany. Is three dragons for Dany okay, but one dragon and one direwolf for Jon, two animals, too much?

Well she had 3 when they hatched, but she doesnt really 'have' all 3 at the end of DwD. I assume 2 more people will tame or ride the other 2. Dany really only has Drogon, they are bonded. So I am fine with Jon getting either of the other 2 dragons, just dont think he will get Drogon specifically. I see the similarities you have posted between Jon and Drogon. maybe that is just foreshadowing that Dany and Drogon will eventually run into Jon and they will all be involved.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

well.. i guess, a dragons personality (with the input of previous riders) can play a part when said dragon is riderless.. but if this dragon is tamed by a new rider, he will be bound to his new master´s will..

So, Victarion, if able to tame (through sorcery) Rhaegal, then he could be able to hurt dany.. the dragon will hate him (just like the bear with Varamyr) but he will do his bidding.

the loves and hates of dragons seem to play a part when the dragon is riderless. Tessarion for instance, apparently, saved Seasmoke, from Vermithor.

Even though Prince Daeron and Hugh Hammer were on the "same side" of the dance of dragons at that time, Prince Daeron hated hugh hammer for his ambitions to crown himself. Does It makes sense that Daeron´s dragon would attack Hugh´s one in defense of Seasmoke? From the side of the hates and loves of former riders... i think it does.

The thing is, Targaryens could have initially got their firsts dragons with sorcery... as implied earlier, dragons can be inherited. Dragons seem to have a preference for riders that are descendants or blood relatives of their previous riders. So, a dragon horn in the Targaryen house, would only be relevant during the times of Old Valyria.. Once the Targaryens escaped the doom and went to Dragonstone with only a couple of dragons, then by keeping the blood pure they can somewhat maintain the monopoly...

My theory is that the Valyrians got their first dragons the same way Nettles did with sheepstealer,. They were a peaceful sheep-herding folk (sounds like a hint) that lived around the Valyrian peninsula, until they found dragons in the fourteen fires and tamed them with magic, according to the official story. Are we supposed to believe they were such powerful sorcerers in the first place? If so, why were they such a minor civilization?

I think, that they initially bonded with dragons the same way nettles did with sheepstealer. The rational way, gain their trust by giving them food. In time they will get used to humans and slowly they will start to trust them.

Magic and sorcery comes later. The Valyrians settled in that volcanic formation. Dragons started to proliferate (in the hands of the few families brave enough or successful in taming wild dragons ) and so did magic, since magic is rooted also in blood and fire. In such a society those with dragons would have power, and those without won´t. Dragon Horn sounds like the instrument with which a new dragonlord appear by stealing a dragon of another house/family. We have confirmation that there were civil wars in Valyria where dragons warred against other dragons. Somehow the number of dragon lords went up to 40 or so, the Targaryens being one of the lesser dragonlords.

If dragons have a preference for blood relatives of the previous rider, will the egg of this dragon also have the same preference? If so, then it is easy to understand the incest thing the Valyians had (and the Targaryens as well). It´s a way to keep the dragons within the house.

I don´t think eggs will hatch for anyone. I think Dany´s eggs are the ones of Rhaena Targaryen (of Pentos).

The hatching is part of the bonding process. Dany had somewhat pre-existant bond with her “children” before the Pyre, especially with Drogon (she had dreams of him during AGOT). Those dragons will be bound to her family better than to anyone else. Victarion has a magical advantage

Tyrion? If he is a targ bastard, then yes, if he is not, he will have to bond with Viserion the hard way.

I was thinking about this some more. If you are correct about the dragons; that the original bonding with a 'mother' dragon, like the first dragon and then all other eggs from the original dragon will bond with members of the same family as the first one.

So lets assume that Illyrio was telling the truth about the eggs and they are in fact fossils from Asshai. which dont have any connection with the Targaryen, Valyrian dragons. So Dany brings them to life and they all three partially bonded with her when they were eggs and when she raised them as babies, obviously the bond with Drogon is the strongest. Ok so according to the dragons Dany is the human they like, which means they know her blood and will have no problem bonding with other people who have the same blood as her. Of course that does not include any and all Targaryens, only ones that are related to her through blood, like Jon or Viserys (or Tyrion if he is Aerys' son). Dany descends from Aegon I through Jahaerys I, I will have to look at the family tree to see how closely she would be related to fAegon Blackfyre, do they actually share a blood connection? What about BBP? How closely would he be related to Dany? Because now what I am thinking is that her dragons will not be able to bond with just any Targaryen but only ones that share a blood connection with Dany, the Mother of Dragons. I am going to look up the family trees and see.......... be back soon

[Mladen]

So lets assume that Illyrio was telling the truth about the eggs and they are in fact fossils from Asshai. which dont have any connection with the Targaryen, Valyrian dragons. So Dany brings them to life and they all three partially bonded with her when they were eggs and when she raised them as babies, obviously the bond with Drogon is the strongest. Ok so according to the dragons Dany is the human they like, which means they know her blood and will have no problem bonding with other people who have the same blood as her. Of course that does not include any and all Targaryens, only ones that are related to her through blood, like Jon or Viserys (or Tyrion if he is Aerys' son). Dany descends from Aegon I through Jahaerys I, I will have to look at the family tree to see how closely she would be related to fAegon Blackfyre, do they actually share a blood connection? What about BBP? How closely would he be related to Dany? Because now what I am thinking is that her dragons will not be able to bond with just any Targaryen but only ones that share a blood connection with Dany, the Mother of Dragons. I am going to look up the family trees and see.......... be back soon

The conclusion is somewhat flawed because both Quentyn and fAegon are descendants of Aegon the Conqueror, and I think that the Quentyn simply disproves your theory. I think that now we are reading too much into this. Yes, Dany considers all three dragons hers, but objectively, as TPATQ showed us, she can have only one - Drogon. The other two will be bonded by whomever claims them. Tyrion might ride Viserion even without Dany around. Victarion can claim Rhaegal even without Dany's permission. Will both of them have Aegon the Conqueror's blood? No. And, IMO, none of them has. But that's another story. I doubt that we can say that dragons will bond only to the blood relatives of Dany. Quentyn was a blood relative of her, and look what happened to him.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

OK I looked, If fAegon is the son of Illyrio and descendant from Maleys and Dameon Blackfyre then that means Dany and Aegon are only related through Viserys I which was 9 generations back from Dany and 6-7 generations back from Aegon, So they are barely related, they would be like 20th cousins or something. BBP says that he has Targaryen blood from around the time of the rule of Aegon (but he doesnt know which one) if it is Aegon V and maybe one of Aegon's sisters is BBP's relative (Daella or Rhae) then he would be a much much closer relation to Dany than fAegon would be, they would only be separated by 3 generations (they would share a great grandfather or a great aunt or uncle). I am thinking something like this must be the case, because Viserion showed affection to BBP and Tyrion mentions that BBP must have '2 drops' of Targaryen blood not just 1. I think all of that must have been mentioned for a reason, so that added to the hints from the new Tyrion sample chapter.....IMO signs are pointing to Tyrion and BBP catching/taming/riding Viserion..

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The conclusion is somewhat flawed because both Quentyn and fAegon are descendants of Aegon the Conqueror, and I think that the Quentyn simply disproves your theory. I think that now we are reading too much into this. Yes, Dany considers all three dragons hers, but objectively, as TPATQ showed us, she can have only one - Drogon. The other two will be bonded by whomever claims them. Tyrion might ride Viserion even without Dany around. Victarion can claim Rhaegal even without Dany's permission. Will both of them have Aegon the Conqueror's blood? No. And, IMO, none of them has. But that's another story. I doubt that we can say that dragons will bond only to the blood relatives of Dany. Quentyn was a blood relative of her, and look what happened to him.

Well I guess I am saying it has to be slightly closer relation that that. Dany, Tyrion and Jon all have very much the same blood (if he is Tyrion Waters). You could be right about reading too much into it, but what else do we have to do at this point :dunno: ?

And at least this would give some purpose to all the years and generations of interbreeding in the family.

[Mladen]

OK I looked, If fAegon is the son of Illyrio and descendant from Maleys and Dameon Blackfyre then that means Dany and Aegon are only related through Viserys I which was 9 generations back from Dany and 6-7 generations back from Aegon, So they are barely related, they would be like 20th cousins or something. BBP says that he has Targaryen blood from around the time of the rule of Aegon (but he doesnt know which one) if it is Aegon V and maybe one of Aegon's sisters is BBP's relative (Daella or Rhae) then he would be a much much closer relation to Dany than fAegon would be, they would only be separated by 3 generations (they would share a great grandfather or a great aunt or uncle). I am thinking something like this must be the case, because Viserion showed affection to BBP and Tyrion mentions that BBP must have '2 drops' of Targaryen blood not just 1. I think all of that must have been mentioned for a reason, so that added to the hints from the new Tyrion sample chapter.....IMO signs are pointing to Tyrion and BBP catching/taming/riding Viserion..

I think you are wrong. The common ancestor for fAegon (if he is Blackfyre) and Daenerys would be Aegon the Unworthy, given that all Blackfyres started from him.

Basically, it's like this

Aegon IV - Daeron II - Maekar I - Aegon V - Jaeherys II - Aerys II - Daenerys

Aegon IV - Daemon Blackfyre - (unkonwn son of Daeron) - Maelys - female descendants(one or two generations) - Aegon

Well I guess I am saying it has to be slightly closer relation that that. Dany, Tyrion and Jon all have very much the same blood (if he is Tyrion Waters). You could be right about reading too much into it, but what else do we have to do at this point :dunno: ?

And at least this would give some purpose to all the years and generations of interbreeding in the family.

I understand but the "purity" of blood simply could mean nothing. Targaryens could have ridden dragons even when they would procreate with other families. Rhaenyra was half-Arryn, and her half-siblings were half-Hightower. Maekar was half-Martell... I don't think that blood here plays a significant role, or the level of the closeness.

[Nictarion]

I think you are wrong. The common ancestor for fAegon (if he is Blackfyre) and Daenerys would be Aegon the Unworthy, given that all Blackfyres started from him.

Basically, it's like this

Aegon IV - Daeron II - Maekar I - Aegon V - Jaeherys II - Aerys II - Daenerys

Aegon IV - Daeron Blackfyre - (unkonwn son of Daeron) - Maelys - female descendants(one or two generations) - Aegon

I think your right, except it was Daemon Blackfyre, not Daeron.