Thoughts on bonding with and taming dragons

[Mladen]

I think your right, except it was Daemon Blackfyre, not Daeron.

Thanks... I always confuse Daemon and Daeron :)

[Mithras]

Thanks... I always confuse Daemon and Daeron :)

But the thing is, even half of the Targaryens think that Daeron was fathered by Aemon the Dragonknight. So Viserys II becomes the common ancestor.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think you are wrong. The common ancestor for fAegon (if he is Blackfyre) and Daenerys would be Aegon the Unworthy, given that all Blackfyres started from him.

Basically, it's like this

Aegon IV - Daeron II - Maekar I - Aegon V - Jaeherys II - Aerys II - Daenerys

Aegon IV - Daemon Blackfyre - (unkonwn son of Daeron) - Maelys - female descendants(one or two generations) - Aegon

I understand but the "purity" of blood simply could mean nothing. Targaryens could have ridden dragons even when they would procreate with other families. Rhaenyra was half-Arryn, and her half-siblings were half-Hightower. Maekar was half-Martell... I don't think that blood here plays a significant role, or the level of the closeness.

OH yeah, you're right about the lineage, so they are related 7 generations back. Still a very small blood connection.

But the thing is, even half of the Targaryens think that Daeron was fathered by Aemon the Dragonknight. So Viserys II becomes the common ancestor.

So either way it is 7 to 8 generations back, which is very different than how closely related Jon and Tyrion(maybe) are to Dany. Theres no way to know if the it makes any difference to the Dragons at this point, I am just speculating ideas.

[Nictarion]

But the thing is, even half of the Targaryens think that Daeron was fathered by Aemon the Dragonknight. So Viserys II becomes the common ancestor.

Blackfyre propaganda.

[Alia of the knife]

I’m not up to speed on the ins and outs of Targaryen history as I am getting caught up, but here are a few random take-aways that I have observed regarding the discussion.

On the dragon-bonding, I do agree that Danys strongest bond is with Drogon, and I suspect that if there isn’t a fourth, unknown dragon that would be unique to Jon, I suspect he bonds with Rhaegal.

Comparative analysis of Dany:

Aegon conquered Westeros because he could, whereas Dany may conquer it because she feels it is her duty to do so, in which case, she does remind me more of Stannis. Neither of them strike me as really wanting it, (doesn’t she still dream of the house with the little red door?), for the sake of power in and of itself, but feel it is their right.

Dany as a Mother/goddess figure, may have been born to “birth” the dragons, which may be her only destiny. I’ve always speculated that the irony in the male Targaryens trying to bring back the dragons never had the power at all, because that power may have always been with the females who were essentially “side lined” from the power structure.

Conspiracies:

The idea of the warlocks pulling the strings behind the Greyjoys “book-ends” the theory that the Maesters and the Citadel are involved at the other end, trying to stamp out magic in the same way, historically speaking, that reason clashed with religion, heralding the rise of "science" over "superstition."

[Fire Eater]

Its subtle because Dany has no dragonlore or someone like Jojen that told Bran about his bond to Summer

Except the bond between Dany and Drogon is pretty clear to see in the text.

The said he believes in leaving clues and there are clearly clues for Jon's parentage.

Clues aren't explicit.

I still don't see how that is a clue for Jon warging Drogon. Jon's smoking wounds are just due to him being in cold weather and Drogon has hot blood.

And I dont see how the wings connect, how else was GRRM supposed to write it? I'm sure I can find other examples like that in the book that arent foreshadowing.

If anything Bran is the only character that there are clues of him warging a dragon, because hes the most powerful warg amongst the stark children and has been promised that he will fly.

Except the smoking wounds matches Drogon's, it is obviously steam, but GRRM chose to use smoke. The ravens and dragon's wings have the same phrase for its description.

If Jon is to mount a dragon, it would make sense to warg it first if he wants to ensure he doesn't get killed. Bran got to fly in a raven, although I won't rule the possibility of him warging a dragon.

[yolkboy]

The dragon horn, is something I do not understand at all. There is not much info on them at all. I know that some of the dragonlord families from Valyria used horns to make the dragon subservient so that it could be turned into a slave, to like dig for precious metal or something, that the dragons were slaves to the dragonlords. So if you ask me, Dany is not going to be happy about Victarion or anyone turning one of her dragons into a slave. Plus as we have seen, ordinary humans cannot blow the horns without dying. I dont know if a Targ could without dying, but I doubt Dany is going to try it, so we may never know. So even though they have the horn, it seems unlikely that Vic will be able to have someone else blow the horn but the the dragons just come sit and roll over to Vic if he didn't blow the horn personally.

I agree the dragonhorn seems like a curve ball in our understanding of dragon taming and bonding. Moqorro does state that whoever blows it will die (it says on the horn 'no mortal man' and was written by Valyrians), so I doubt Targs would fare any different. i assume the dragonlords made their slaves blow the thing - and this seems like sacrificial magic, you get the binding magic but at the cost of a life. The sound of the horn made the listeners feel like their chest was aflame... suggesting this is what happened to the dead blower. His chest was also bleeding, so it seems fitiing to the assertion in DwD that Valyrian magic was rooted in 'fire and blood'. The horn glyphs says 'blood for fire, fire for blood' - which aside from the blowing process, hints that for sacrifice you gain control of fire, obvs dragons.

Moqorro doesn't seem to expect Vic to blow it, but suggests he needs to become the horns 'master'. He has to do this 'by blood'. Again bloodmagic, and who can say what Vic has to do to become the horns master, other than it must involve some bloodletting. So it does seem a master can benefit from the horn and get an unfortunate soul to be the sacrifice.

The dragon would obviously have to be in range and hear the horn. It's intriguing what power the horn might have against a more natural bonding. Dany seems to think the dragonlords used them to control dragons, but this whole area is quite murky. Look forward to seeing what happens, if Vic can claim a dragon, and what Moqorro is doing (Vic seems to be his pawn).

[RumHam]

I'm sure this has come up a thousand times before in other threads but it just occurred to me. Since Moqorro set out to help Dany, who he and Bennaro believe to be their savior, isn't it very likely he's misleading Victarion? Or maybe what he said about the horn is true and he plans to betray him?

[Mithras]

I'm sure this has come up a thousand times before in other threads but it just occurred to me. Since Moqorro set out to help Dany, who he and Bennaro believe to be their savior, isn't it very likely he's misleading Victarion? Or maybe what he said about the horn is true and he plans to betray him?

I think since they are believeing that Dany is their messiah, they are helping the one who can offer the most help to her. That is Victarion and his Iron Fleet of course.

Besides, Moqorro called Tyrion a friend. Since Tyrion is highly foreshadowed to be the rider of Viserion and he also has a lot of ability to offer to Dany, I think Moqorro is sincere with Victarion and Tyrion.

[RumHam]

I think since they are believeing that Dany is their messiah, they are helping the one who can offer the most help to her. That is Victarion and his Iron Fleet of course.

Besides, Moqorro called Tyrion a friend. Since Tyrion is highly foreshadowed to be the rider of Viserion and he also has a lot of ability to offer to Dany, I think Moqorro is sincere with Victarion and Tyrion.

I should have been more clear. I get why he's helping him capture more ships and get there, but is he really gonna help Victarion use a magic horn to effectively steal one of her dragons?

[yolkboy]

I'm sure this has come up a thousand times before in other threads but it just occurred to me. Since Moqorro set out to help Dany, who he and Bennaro believe to be their savior, isn't it very likely he's misleading Victarion? Or maybe what he said about the horn is true and he plans to betray him?

Well Moqorro (off the top of my head) says he has big plans for Vic, seen in flames. Given Vics rather stupid nature, i wouldn't be surprised if this is a poisoned gift. Moqorro is absolutely ruthless, and will no doubt do whatever he deems to be best for his endgame. In short yes i agree with you, it was always my interpretation, I think he's using Vic - who happens to be an easy person to mislead.

[yolkboy]

I should have been more clear. I get why he's helping him capture more ships and get there, but is he really gonna help Victarion use a magic horn to effectively steal one of her dragons?

Well that could be part of his grander scheme. he does tell Vic about the horn and what he has to do to be master. It's just a matter of when he chooses to betray him (my guess).

[Mithras]

I should have been more clear. I get why he's helping him capture more ships and get there, but is he really gonna help Victarion use a magic horn to effectively steal one of her dragons?

Well, Dany has three dragons, two more than a Targaryen can hope to ride. I think a "converted" Vic is preferable to be a dragonrider for the red priests. Besides, who will save them from the incoming Volantene Fleet and who will lead Dany's Fleet back? Although Vic is a follower of the Drowned God, he started to pay respect to the Lord of Light and he made blood sacrifice for him.

[Parwan]

...

Conspiracies:

The idea of the warlocks pulling the strings behind the Greyjoys “book-ends” the theory that the Maesters and the Citadel are involved at the other end, trying to stamp out magic in the same way, historically speaking, that reason clashed with religion, heralding the rise of "science" over "superstition."

There is a lot to that. I'm glad you put "science" in quotes. In our world, the quotes are not needed. If we are talking about the philosophy of the maesters, however, they are needed.

The Faceless Men are also players in the game. A lot is happening in and near Oldtown. Somewhere, probably stored in vaults, the maesters have documents relating to dragons. The Faceless Men appear to have an interest in these books (or parchments, or whatever). It stands to reason that the warlocks would also be interested. I believe that this is part of the reason why the longships of the ironmen have penetrated into Whispering Sound. The Faceless Men have their way of getting to the important info. The warlocks are trying a different method

I agree the dragonhorn seems like a curve ball in our understanding of dragon taming and bonding. Moqorro does state that whoever blows it will die (it says on the horn 'no mortal man' and was written by Valyrians), so I doubt Targs would fare any different. i assume the dragonlords made their slaves blow the thing - and this seems like sacrificial magic, you get the binding magic but at the cost of a life...

The dragon would obviously have to be in range and hear the horn. It's intriguing what power the horn might have against a more natural bonding. Dany seems to think the dragonlords used them to control dragons, but this whole area is quite murky. Look forward to seeing what happens, if Vic can claim a dragon, and what Moqorro is doing (Vic seems to be his pawn).

It is quite unclear what effect the horn will have upon any dragon. Upthread, I pointed out that no one from the Iron Islands has ever heard the horn sounded in the presence of a dragon. In fact, no living person has heard such a thing. Furthermore, there is the question of what sort of notes to play. This doesn't mean the guy trying to communicate with the dragon has to play a song. That's not the point. It appears that almost everyone is operating from a basis of pure ignorance. Imagine that you are coming south toward the Wall with a Ranger horn. Unfortunately, you have no idea of what means what. You don't know what one blast, two blasts, and three blasts signify. In fact, you don't even know that the number of times the horn is blown is the crucial factor. You wouldn't be able to communicate with the guys on the Wall, would you?

I'm sure this has come up a thousand times before in other threads but it just occurred to me. Since Moqorro set out to help Dany, who he and Bennaro believe to be their savior, isn't it very likely he's misleading Victarion? Or maybe what he said about the horn is true and he plans to betray him?

I think it is quite likely that he is misleading Vic. How would we know whether or not the red priest translated the inscription correctly and fully? Even if he did this, it's much more likely than not that he is withholding important information. Moqorro, in my view, is one of the two people who are not totally ignorant about the horn. The other is the dusky woman. I'd say that there is a very important struggle between these two coming up. In this struggle, Vic will not be a major player. I don't believe either of the two knowledgeable people are motivated to help him. They are the ones who are most likely to be able to solve the problem of how to use the instrument, and they will attempt to do so for their own purposes, not to make "the fairest woman in the world" a glorified salt wife.

Well, Dany has three dragons, two more than a Targaryen can hope to ride. I think a "converted" Vic is preferable to be a dragonrider for the red priests. Besides, who will save them from the incoming Volantene Fleet and who will lead Dany's Fleet back? Although Vic is a follower of the Drowned God, he started to pay respect to the Lord of Light and he made blood sacrifice for him.

The red priests do not seem satisfied with respect for their god. To them, there is only one true religion.

There is no need to assume that the Volantene fleet will wind up as a enemy force to the Targaryen cause. On the contrary, it may turn out to be one of Dany's greatest assets. Lots of slaves and sellswords with the fleet, right? I see a considerable chance of a mutiny.

[OnlyOne]

I think GRRM wrote the "seeds" in TPatQ to make it ambiguous. I tend to lean towards the idea that most of the seeds did have some Targaryen blood. Nettles is the big question mark. The way she tamed Sheepstealer could be done by anyone. I would guess you don't have to be of Valyrian descent to be a dragon rider, but I think it would surely increase the chances of a successful bond.

The horn is going to be trouble for Dany imo. As she has already bonded to Drogon, I think the point of introducing the horn will be for someone else to steal a dragon. Perhaps the Valyrian's made their slaves blow the horns. We know the dragon is supposed to bond to the horns owner, not the one who blows the horn, as that is fatal. Euron could end up with a dragon, since he is the horns owner.

As far as Dany bonding to the dragons, specifically Drogon, I think its a unique situation. She is their mother, they drank from her breasts. I'd imagine all the other Targaryen dragons had other full grown dragons around to look after them. Dany may be the only human to ever raise the dragons the way she did. Her bond with Drogon is something special. He senses when she's in danger and comes to her aid. It's much like the Starks and their direwolves. I think her and Drogon's bond is probably one of the strongest a rider and dragon have probably ever had. I also think the theory that Jon or anyone else will ever ride Drogon is complete nonsense. I believe Dany and Drogon's fates are going to be intertwined. If Dany dies I think he will die with her.

I don't think Drogon would die with Dany but I enjoyed your post.

[oursisthefury69]

I think it should be looked at in the same way we know that First Men blood is needed for skinchanging/greenseeing. In that same way we know that the blood of Old Valyria and the Valyrian dragonlords is needed to ride dragons, it appears to be some sort of latent ability in their bloodlines that requires both knowledge and luck of the draw within that bloodline. The only difference is that all the First Men were never gathered all together in one city during an apocalypse, unlike the dragonlords who were only survived by the Targaryens. Somehow it becomes a matter of people thinking its Targaryen propaganda that perpetuates them being the only ones to ride dragons, its just bevcause they were the only dragonlords to survive the Doom of Valyria, which is why is think the Doom is such an important event

[RumHam]

I think it should be looked at in the same way we know that First Men blood is needed for skinchanging/greenseeing. In that same way we know that the blood of Old Valyria and the Valyrian dragonlords is needed to ride dragons, it appears to be some sort of latent ability in their bloodlines that requires both knowledge and luck of the draw within that bloodline. The only difference is that all the First Men were never gathered all together in one city during an apocalypse, unlike the dragonlords who were only survived by the Targaryens. Somehow it becomes a matter of people thinking its Targaryen propaganda that perpetuates them being the only ones to ride dragons, its just bevcause they were the only dragonlords to survive the Doom of Valyria, which is why is think the Doom is such an important event

They were the only Dragonlords to survive the doom, not because of their blood but because they had the only known remaining dragons. There should be plenty of people in Volantis, plus the Velyrons who still have the blood of old Valyria.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

They were the only Dragonlords to survive the doom, not because of their blood but because they had the only known remaining dragons. There should be plenty of people in Volantis, plus the Velyrons who still have the blood of old Valyria.

The only reason they survived is because of Daenys the dreamer, who foresaw the coming doom and convinced her family to leave. They were not the only ones with dragons, just the only ones who had foresight and knew to get out of there.

[RumHam]

The only reason they survived is because of Daenys the dreamer, who foresaw the coming doom and convinced her family to leave. They were not the only ones with dragons, just the only ones who had foresight and knew to get out of there.

I know that. I meant that it was their owning dragons that made them the last surviving dragonlords, not their blood. If someone in Volantis got ahold of a dragon or an egg they probably could have tamed it and become dragonlords.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I know that. I meant that it was their owning dragons that made them the last surviving dragonlords, not their blood. If someone in Volantis got ahold of a dragon or an egg they probably could have tamed it and become dragonlords.

Well it is hard to speculate about things that have never happened in the 5000 year history of the dragonlord families. I have said before that we see dragon eggs getting traded around, Euron has one, Illryio got 3 from Asshai that were eons old. the warlocks obviously know where to find one. I think eggs are more available than posters allow. Eggs have been traded stolen and sold but no one else in 5000 years has ridden a dragon except the Valyrians, which continues to add support to the fact that only Valyrians can ride dragons. Otherwise it would have happened already.

It is easy to say that if so and so had their chance they could have ridden a dragon, but if 5000 years have gone by and none of those other people have been able to do it.......well we must assume they cannot. to argue against that goes against the literature.