Football LXXI - My Little Chelsea

[Mexal]

Haha, why didn't they just say "yes"?? They can't even sack people properly anymore FFS

Likely trying to force him to resign. Not sure what the contract states for firing when it comes to paying out the rest of it. In the NFL, even fired coaches get their entire contract, while if they resign, they get nothing more.

[Jeor]

Jeor, where were these signings going to come from when his side was not going to playing in the Champions League next season?

Admittedly it would be difficult. But whoever's managing them, the team won't have CL next season - so any manager is going to have the same trouble as Moyes in terms of getting world-class players in.

Someone like Van Gaal might have more pulling power but apart from him I don't know if there are any viable options. Even if they did get Klopp, for instance, there'd be enough doubt in Klopp moving out of the Bundesliga that players would wonder if a second Moyes-like season under Klopp is a possibility. The pressure on the incoming manager is enormous considering they'd be expected to instantly do better than Moyes. As it is, I don't think there are many managerial contenders who could effectively shake off the damaging possibility of another Moyesesque season.

The only people that would give United full transfer credibility with incoming players aren't available (Guardiola, Mourinho, Ancelotti). Van Gaal is the next best thing. Anyone else, I think there's enough doubt that they would have just as much trouble as Moyes in attracting good players.

A very random thought is Del Bosque, but he's 63 and would be tied up with the World Cup.

[Spockydog]

Damn. If Norwich hadn't sacked Chris Hughton, then I'd be collecting on my 8/1 bet a few weeks ago.

Think I'm going to have a few quid on Ryan Giggs to be the next permanent manager. I think it's fair to say that one of the first things a group of players will think regarding a new manager is 'show us your medals'. And seeing as Giggs is the most decorated player in the history of English football, as well as a bona fide Manchester United legend, I don't think anyone could question his right to be given a shot at the job.

[Jeor]

Think I'm going to have a few quid on Ryan Giggs to be the next permanent manager. I think it's fair to say that one of the first things a group of players will think regarding a new manager is 'show us your medals'. And seeing as Giggs is the most decorated player in the history of English football, as well as a bona fide Manchester United legend, I don't think anyone could question his right to be given a shot at the job.

I don't think the business-types at United would be comfortable with Giggs. They want a surefire, heavy-CV manager to guarantee on-field success and commercial viability, not a rookie.

[Spockydog]

I don't think the business-types at United would be comfortable with Giggs. They want a surefire, heavy-CV manager to guarantee on-field success and commercial viability, not a rookie.

Perhaps. But then again, they'd get Giggs for a lot less than it would cost to get Van Gaal, Klopp, or any of those other guys.

Plus, Giggs would command instant respect in the dressing room, and it's probably fair to say that if he'd had sole control of the team, instead of Moyes, they'd be in a lot better shape now.

ETA: And doesn't the fact that they will not be in the CL next season mean it will be more difficult, and more expensive, to lure the top managers to the club?

[Mexal]

talkSPORT now saying he's definitely not being sacked. The news cycle is insane when it comes to football related content.

[polishgenius]

Jeor, where were these signings going to come from when his side was not going to playing in the Champions League next season?

It will be interesting to see who jumps ship in the summer.

Come on, one season missing out doesn't mean our cachet suddenly vanishes entirely, even if Moyes and Wood(ward) did their level best to ruin that this season. Liverpool have managed to sign and keep Suarez and other players on the promise of CL football that hasn't happened for years (which, by the way, is the answer to the oft-asked question of 'if it's that easy to win without European games, how come no-one else does it - there's probably only five teams in Europe atm who could do that, and three of them will never ever finish outside the CL positions without a drastic change in their leagues. And the other one is us). We're as big a draw and as rich as them, and should have no problem getting in players.

I think if the hierarchy had the choice of Van Gaal or Klopp (which apparently they don't if he doesn't want to move), they'd have to go with Van Gaal. Klopp is an unknown quantity outside of the Bundesliga, whereas Van Gaal has a record of success in many different leagues, and would command dressing-room respect in a way that only an experienced resume can provide.

I don't think Klopp would have any problem gaining the respect of the dressing room tbh. He's only managed in Germany so far, yes, but even his brief record shows a remarkable ability to get the players to buy into his vision, even the ones who know they're jumping soon.

We're not getting Klopp, though. They'll be wary of another gamble and Van Gaal is a relatively safe pair of hands. He'd be a short-term fix, however.

Tbh if Moyes does go I want Bielsa.

Edit: And, of course, Klopp doesn't want the United job. Or any other job at the moment.

[ljkeane]

Er, David Moyes hasn't done well this year but he's also an experienced manager with years of experience, and success, managing at the Premier League level. Giggs is/was an excellent player who's done a little bit of coaching. It's possible he may turn out to be a good manager but I don't think it's 'probably' fair to say they'd be a lot better off if he'd been manager this year. In fact I think it's probably fairly unlikely they would be.

[Spockydog]

They'll be wary of another gamble and Van Gaal is a relatively safe pair of hands. He'd be a short-term fix, however.

Van Gaal has already indicated he's not going to make any decisions on his future until he sees what Arsene Wenger does at the end of the season.

It's likely that any other top, top managers feel the same. United or Arsenal, I know who I'd choose.

[Spockydog]

Er, David Moyes hasn't done well this year but he's also an experienced manager with years of experience, and success, managing at the Premier League level. Giggs is/was an excellent player who's done a little bit of coaching. It's possible he may turn out to be a good manager but I don't think it's 'probably' fair to say they'd be a lot better off if he'd been manager this year. In fact I think it's probably fairly unlikely they would be.

Success? Depends how you define the word. Moyes never won anything. Best he ever did was getting Everton to 4th spot in the league.

[ljkeane]

Getting to fourth in one of the top two or three leagues in world football is more success than 99% of football managers have achieved. Giggs on the other hand as a coach has achieved what? He's probably earned a couple of coaching badges? He might turn out to be a good manager but we really have no idea at this point.

[Mexal]

Success? Depends how you define the word. Moyes never won anything. Best he ever did was getting Everton to 4th spot in the league.

That's a pretty big deal given what teams are almost always in the top 4.

[polishgenius]

I don't think Giggs has even managed one of the reserve or youth setups, unlike, say, Solskjaer (and Solskjaer was by all accounts fucking good at it, and did well at Molde too). Sure he might turn out to be good and some players do turn straight into successful managers but I think he'd be a terrible choice for a full-term gaffer. Certainly saying that the team would likely be in a better position with him all season is pretty laughable.

I'd rather Steve Bruce (but then, Steve Bruce is pretty good).

[Spockydog]

In 12 years, Moyes' away record against the Big Four is W0 D19 L30. Sorry, but that's just shit. If you want to be considered a top manager, you have to be able to go to one of these clubs and bloody a nose now and again. Jeez, Tony Pubis has a better record against the Big Four.

Of course, appointing Giggs would be a huge gamble. Not saying they should, but seeing as Moyes' biggest problem was an apparent lack of respect from his players, it's not unreasonable to assume the players, the same squad who won the title last year, might have performed better for someone they knew and respected, regardless of his lack of first team coaching experience.

[Alex.]

I don't think Giggs has even managed one of the reserve or youth setups, unlike, say, Solskjaer (and Solskjaer was by all accounts fucking good at it, and did well at Molde too). Sure he might turn out to be good and some players do turn straight into successful managers but I think he'd be a terrible choice for a full-term gaffer. Certainly saying that the team would likely be in a better position with him all season is pretty laughable.

I'd rather Steve Bruce (but then, Steve Bruce is pretty good).

He's been on a management course at St. George's Park. Maybe start him off in Accounts?

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Oh my, some more ManUtd misery? How satisfying!

Seriously though I think it's too soon to let Moysey go, he should be given more time. I think being out of Europe will do them a great deal of good, that's if they can manage to sign and let go of the right players this summer.

[Jeor]

It's likely that any other top, top managers feel the same. United or Arsenal, I know who I'd choose.

If Wenger does leave at the end of the season, Arsenal would be a plum job. Far more attractive than United; for one thing, the team is a lot younger and set up for success (Ramsey, Ozil, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Wilshere etc are all young), and the business/revenue side of things is a heck of a lot safer than the heavy Glazer-debt.

Of course, appointing Giggs would be a huge gamble. Not saying they should, but seeing as Moyes' biggest problem was an apparent lack of respect from his players, it's not unreasonable to assume the players, the same squad who won the title last year, might have performed better for someone they knew and respected, regardless of his lack of first team coaching experience.

I'm not sure that respect as a coach and respect as a player are the same thing. Giggs would certainly be respected for his achievements as a player, and would have credibility delivering team talks about what needs to happen. But that's not all there is to being a coach; the players have to respect your training methods, your judgment in first-team selection and your man-management skills in general. All of Giggs' achievements might give him a little leeway in those areas but it wouldn't take long for those areas to be questioned if it doesn't go well.

[Consigliere]

Come on, one season missing out doesn't mean our cachet suddenly vanishes entirely, even if Moyes and Wood(ward) did their level best to ruin that this season. Liverpool have managed to sign and keep Suarez and other players on the promise of CL football that hasn't happened for years (which, by the way, is the answer to the oft-asked question of 'if it's that easy to win without European games, how come no-one else does it - there's probably only five teams in Europe atm who could do that, and three of them will never ever finish outside the CL positions without a drastic change in their leagues. And the other one is us). We're as big a draw and as rich as them, and should have no problem getting in players.

Could not agree more with this statement. One bad season does not erase two plus decades of success. We may have to pay a few bob more but I don't see us having a major problem attracting players - United is still among the elite of european football. The issue is; has Moyes lost the support of the dressing room and given the transfer fiasco this season, should he be trusted with a hundred million pounds plus in the summer?

Fwiw, I think he should be sacked. The club has gone backwards in leaps since his arrival and I don't believe he has what it takes (never have) to be a United manager.

[polishgenius]

All of Giggs' achievements might give him a little leeway in those areas but it wouldn't take long for those areas to be questioned if it doesn't go well.

Exactly. Whatever they think of him as a player and friend, that would last about three games if it turns out he can't manage. It's not as if Moyes turned up as a figure of contempt.

Look at Tim Sherwood.

[Spockydog]

Point taken re Sherwood.

But you have to ask why Moyes chose to marginalise Giggs from the coaching setup. Was it because the players looked more to him than to Moyes? If so, I think it supports my view that Giggs might have gotten more out of the team.