Football LXXI - My Little Chelsea

[Calibandar]

I may be wrong, of course.

We all know it wouldn't be the first time ;)

Let's leave out the question of Man Utd's supposed diminished appeal in the transfer market for now.

Even so, Man Utd's squad is in shambles and one or two transfer windows are not going to bring it to the required level.

The big question is, would the next manager get the chance for more than a season to make things right? It doesn't look that way at the moment.

So why would either Klopp or Simeone forfeit their God-like status at their current club for a season at Man Utd after which they'd end up without a job? For another million or two? They might, but it would be a risky move indeed.

I think your reasoning on this topic is not very sound. You consistently overrate how much Man United has been diminished in one bad season under Moyes. The club is still what it is and what made it appealing before, except for the single fact that we're not playing CL next year ( thanks David). On the other hand that could still be the case for Arsenal as well and yet I do not hear people talking about how diminished they look, in fact with them it's supposedly the reverse, oh there is so much potential there. Bullshit. There's still a massive budget and for a manager, a chance to build a legacy at one of biggest teams in the world of sport.

You're also wrong in saying that the squad is in such a shambles that one or even two transfer windows wouldn't be enough. I think two or three solid buys can really bring the squad up to the level it needs to be, and I'm not even talking about 3 legit star players, but 3 improvements on the current positions. You're then also wrong in saying that it looks like the next manager would only get 1 season to get everything on the rails or be sacked again. There's no indication that that would be the case. They certainly didn't want to get rid of Moyes even though he has been an abject failure, but the fact that there is zero progress simply forces their hand.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see who they come up with this Summer. Wait and see till then, but at least we're not heading into the summer with David Moyes at the helm of € 70- 100 million to spend.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

:( so its finally happened. I'm angry, I'm sad, I'll miss him. He did so much for us, letting us beat ManUtd both home & away. I can honestly say that we wouldn't be where we are without him.

Farewell David Moyes, your time at Old Trafford was a heavenly gift from God.

[baxus]

Why would either of them doubt their ability to succeed at Man U? If they had that sort of mentality, they wouldn't be the successful managers that they are. They've succeeded at jobs arguably just as difficult already, and they both have strong belief in themselves. They'll believe they can take Man U to sustained success.

Because:

• They will be required to succeed overnight with a crappy squad. Do you honestly see this squad playing Klopp's way EVER?
• Fergie's "ghost" is still haunting Old Trafford and will for a years, if not a decade to come. Whatever they do will be seen through "what would Fergie do" glasses and they will be judged as a "(poor) replacement for Fergie"
• As I said before, they're enjoying almost God-like status at their current clubs and are not less likely to succeed with them than with Utd
• Klopp has displayed his love for Dortmund time and time again, I don't think he'd just leave if Utd called, especially after he nipped rumours about Barca in the bud.

I think your reasoning on this topic is not very sound. You consistently overrate how much Man United has been diminished in one bad season under Moyes. The club is still what it is and what made it appealing before, except for the single fact that we're not playing CL next year ( thanks David). On the other hand that could still be the case for Arsenal as well and yet I do not hear people talking about how diminished they look, in fact with them it's supposedly the reverse, oh there is so much potential there. Bullshit. There's still a massive budget and for a manager, a chance to build a legacy at one of biggest teams in the world of sport.

You're also wrong in saying that the squad is in such a shambles that one or even two transfer windows wouldn't be enough. I think two or three solid buys can really bring the squad up to the level it needs to be, and I'm not even talking about 3 legit star players, but 3 improvements on the current positions. You're then also wrong in saying that it looks like the next manager would only get 1 season to get everything on the rails or be sacked again. There's no indication that that would be the case. They certainly didn't want to get rid of Moyes even though he has been an abject failure, but the fact that there is zero progress simply forces their hand.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see who they come up with this Summer. Wait and see till then, but at least we're not heading into the summer with David Moyes at the helm of € 70- 100 million to spend.

Man Utd has been diminished the moment Fergie left. You only need to see their transfer activities since to be fully aware of that. The only signings were Fellaini (a great player at Everton, followed his old manager who failed to utilize him properly in Utd) and Mata (inexplicably benched by Mourinho and desperate to get some first team football in order to make it into Spain's squad for Brazil).

They failed to get Baines despite being willing to overpay for his services, as they did for Fellaini's and I don't remember them even trying to sign anyone else.

Granted, much will depend on who they sign as manager and as a result Utd's stock may rise greatly during this summer.

They will need to make some signings and can become title contenders. I mean, look at what Liverpool did this season. Who would've expected they'd have such a season last autumn?

It CAN happen, now we just have to wait and see if it will.

[Calibandar]

Man Utd has been diminished the moment Fergie left. You only need to see their transfer activities since to be fully aware of that.

I'm not convinced that there is a correlation based on one transfer window. We do know that Woodward has been given the blame for handling it very, very poorly. That is a fact. Whether the transfer window was bad because we had a new exectuve in charge for the first time in years, or because Ferguson wasn't the manager anymore, that is speculation, but it's more likely to be because Woodward fucked it up.

The only signings were Fellaini (a great player at Everton, followed his old manager who failed to utilize him properly in Utd) and Mata (inexplicably benched by Mourinho and desperate to get some first team football in order to make it into Spain's squad for Brazil).

I don't think Fellaini and Mata are bad signings. In and of themselves these are strong player who should theoretically be good players for United as well. It's no worse a transfer window than Arsenal or City had for instance.

• They will be required to succeed overnight with a crappy squad. Do you honestly see this squad playing Klopp's way EVER?

Fergie's "ghost" is still haunting Old Trafford and will for a years, if not a decade to come. Whatever they do will be seen through "what would Fergie do" glasses and they will be judged as a "(poor) replacement for Fergie"

As I said before, they're enjoying almost God-like status at their current clubs and are not less likely to succeed with them than with Utd

Klopp has displayed his love for Dortmund time and time again, I don't think he'd just leave if Utd called, especially after he nipped rumours about Barca in the bud.

I don't think Klopp is coming either. But it won't be because there is something particularly bad about United, or that he has to succeed in one season with a crap squad, as you keep calling it. He's not going anywhere, so not to United either. I would be intrigued by Simeone but at the moment it's just not clear if he's intending to move away from Atletico, so again this is not about United in particular.

Theoretically United is an interesting club for either of them I imagine, as much as it is for other managers.

I also don't agree that everything a new manager does will be seen through " what would Fergie have done" for the next 10 years.

[Alex.]

They did try and sign other players, but were roundly rebuffed each time. And let's not forget the Ander Herrera/Lawyers in Spain story either

[Consigliere]

Finally the disastrous reign of Moyes has ended. I doubt Klopp or Simeone will leave their respective clubs but one never knows. I think Van Gaal is the favourite to take over.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

#RoyKeane #pissOffFergie

[Mexal]

Still think United will be back competing next year, especially if Van Gaal takes the job. They'll spend a lot of money, buy their deficiencies and be competitive again. One bad season doesn't overwrite 20 years of dominance, especially when it comes to brand.

That being said, still think United fucked up majorly by firing Moyes in installments. It's pretty clear they were trying to get him to resign to save money. I hate it when clubs play games like that with managers, deserved or not.

[mormont]

Because:

• They will be required to succeed overnight with a crappy squad. Do you honestly see this squad playing Klopp's way EVER?

Do you honestly think the current Man U squad is significantly worse than the Dortmund squad, or the Atletico squad once Cost inevitably leaves?

Klopp and Simeone are getting plaudits precisely because they're overachieving with what are, on paper, not particularly strong player rosters.

And of course, if they took the job they'd be able to sign their own players. Better players than they can at present. Neither Dortmund nor Atletico will be signing anyone on £300,000 a week any time soon, or paying £37m transfer fees. So the squad will be better.

• Fergie's "ghost" is still haunting Old Trafford and will for a years, if not a decade to come. Whatever they do will be seen through "what would Fergie do" glasses and they will be judged as a "(poor) replacement for Fergie"

But, again, football management is not a game for people who're afraid of something like this.

• As I said before, they're enjoying almost God-like status at their current clubs and are not less likely to succeed with them than with Utd

Both Dortmund and Atletico realistically have ceilings on what a manager can achieve with them. Klopp has likely reached that ceiling already, Simeone may reach it this season. The difference is that Man U have the potential to allow a manager to have that kind of success on a sustained basis, or at least to make it considerably more likely that he could do so: to win, not one European Cup, but more than one, for example.

• Klopp has displayed his love for Dortmund time and time again, I don't think he'd just leave if Utd called, especially after he nipped rumours about Barca in the bud.

This, at least, is true.

[Maltaran]

Klopp has already ruled himself out.

[MercenaryChef]

moyes is welcome to come to newcastle. creating a fortress at home and many years of solid mid table obscurity with little money as he achieved at everton would be welcome.

[Inigima]

NYCFC will play games at Yankee Stadium in 2015, MLS expansion club could seek stadium outside New York City

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/soccer/bondy-city-living-easy-nycfc-article-1.1763851

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Be interesting to see how they manage a three-day turnaround at the height of baseball season too

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Well that sounds extremely impractical. I don't see this ending well.

[MercenaryChef]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/soccer/bondy-city-living-easy-nycfc-article-1.1763851

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Be interesting to see how they manage a three-day turnaround at the height of baseball season too

they can do it. the dimensions of the pitch against the dimensions of a baseball diamond looks very strange to me. but, it is still better than the archaic shithole that dc united play in. our coolest feature is the bouncing stands.

i will totally go up to nyc to see their inaugural home match. i was in seattle for their first mls match, portland for theirs (though failed to score a ticket). best would be their first home match is hosting dc united! let us get this proper rivalry going!

[MercenaryChef]

on the subject of mls stadiums and teams we are adding a team to atlanta in 2017. they will share a stadium with the nfl falcons. this new stadium will seat 29,000 for mls games with a dome element that covers the upper deck. this dome element will be raised opening up the deck for nfl games and another 10,000 fans.

this new stadium will be turf.

boo, i say. turf is fun for five a side amateur play but has no place in the professional game. look at how sloppy the play looks at seattle games played on their nfl turf. the passes are very quick. control of the ball is poor. soccer should be played on grass. dropping grass for a mls game is a fuck of a lot easier that removing a pitchers mound as will be done in nyc.

nfl and mls teams sharing stadiums is the future i think in markets where a soccer only stadium just cannot make it. but, at least let us make sure soccer is played on grass.

[MercenaryChef]

it is done. it is official. man united has finally released poor sweet david moyes from the torture, treachery and general hell that is struggling as a manager in front of the most entitled, impatient bunch of assholes in the premiership.

go, good david! you are at last free! thank you for everything. you will be missed.

[baxus]

I'm not convinced that there is a correlation based on one transfer window. We do know that Woodward has been given the blame for handling it very, very poorly. That is a fact. Whether the transfer window was bad because we had a new exectuve in charge for the first time in years, or because Ferguson wasn't the manager anymore, that is speculation, but it's more likely to be because Woodward fucked it up.

I don't think Fellaini and Mata are bad signings. In and of themselves these are strong player who should theoretically be good players for United as well. It's no worse a transfer window than Arsenal or City had for instance.

I don't think Klopp is coming either. But it won't be because there is something particularly bad about United, or that he has to succeed in one season with a crap squad, as you keep calling it. He's not going anywhere, so not to United either. I would be intrigued by Simeone but at the moment it's just not clear if he's intending to move away from Atletico, so again this is not about United in particular.

Theoretically United is an interesting club for either of them I imagine, as much as it is for other managers.

I also don't agree that everything a new manager does will be seen through " what would Fergie have done" for the next 10 years.

Utd had 2 bad transfer windows - summer and January ;)

Mata and Fellaini are both great signings and I don't think I'd mind one bit had Liverpool snatched them. It's jsut that their signings hadn't been followed through with other players Utd desperately needed, especially with form plumetting all across the board.

As for the bolded part, this whole thing started when I said that I don't see any top-notch managers leaving their current jobs for United. Klopp and Simeone were just ones that were on top of the list ;)

"What would Fergie have done" probably won't last for another 10 years, but it will definitely last for another couple of years.

Do you honestly think the current Man U squad is significantly worse than the Dortmund squad, or the Atletico squad once Cost inevitably leaves?

Klopp and Simeone are getting plaudits precisely because they're overachieving with what are, on paper, not particularly strong player rosters.

And of course, if they took the job they'd be able to sign their own players. Better players than they can at present. Neither Dortmund nor Atletico will be signing anyone on £300,000 a week any time soon, or paying £37m transfer fees. So the squad will be better.

Both Dortmund and Atletico realistically have ceilings on what a manager can achieve with them. Klopp has likely reached that ceiling already, Simeone may reach it this season. The difference is that Man U have the potential to allow a manager to have that kind of success on a sustained basis, or at least to make it considerably more likely that he could do so: to win, not one European Cup, but more than one, for example.

1. Current Man Utd squad is definitely worse than Dortmund squad. Dortmund roster might not have been particularly strong on paper a couple of years ago, that's definitely not the case now.
2. The squad will be better but in a year or two. It won't be rid of Smalling, Evans, Young etc. in any less than that.
3. Dortmund ceiling being 2 Bundesliga titles in the past 4 seasons (including this one, when half their squad was injured), one final and regularly playing in knockout stages of Champions' League. Not bad a ceiling, is it? And neither is Athletico's with a Primera title looming and a Champions League semi this week. They may not achieve such heights on a regular basis, but then again neither does Utd.

[Derfel Cadarn]

"In 2002 Moyes promised to make Everton a better team than Utd.

Job done. "

(From Facebook)

[mormont]

• Current Man Utd squad is definitely worse than Dortmund squad. Dortmund roster might not have been particularly strong on paper a couple of years ago, that's definitely not the case now.

Arguable. Very arguable. But let's just illustrate this point with one transfer: Man U signed Shinji Kagawa from Dortmund, at a time when he was one of their key players. The notion of Dortmund signing a key Man U player, well, it's just not going to happen, is it? So, right there, you have an argument as to why the manager of a club on Dortmund's level might consider managing at Man U. (Though, of course, Klopp has ruled himself out.)

• The squad will be better but in a year or two. It won't be rid of Smalling, Evans, Young etc. in any less than that.

It would be an odd manager who decided to wait until someone else improved the squad, possibly signing players he wouldn't have signed. So this is unpersuasive as an argument.

• Dortmund ceiling being 2 Bundesliga titles in the past 4 seasons (including this one, when half their squad was injured), one final and regularly playing in knockout stages of Champions' League. Not bad a ceiling, is it? And neither is Athletico's with a Primera title looming and a Champions League semi this week. They may not achieve such heights on a regular basis, but then again neither does Utd.

The facts suggest otherwise. Over the last ten years, Man U have qualified for the Champion's League every year, and have progressed beyond the group stage eight of those ten years. They've reached the quarter-finals at least in six of those years and the final three times, winning it once. They've won five domestic titles and various other domestic cups. Of course, all that was under Alex Ferguson, but the fact is that Man U have experienced sustained success, and have the infrastructure to do it again.

[Jeor]

The fact that we're having this conversation about whether United is still one of the top clubs actually speaks to the competitiveness of the English league. In most of the other European leagues it's very easy to pick apart who the big boys are. Spain has Barca and Real, Germany really only has Bayern (I know Atletico and Dortmund are currently trying to upset the established order, but Dortmund are way behind in the league and it remains to be seen whether Atletico can sustain it over a few years). Serie A has Juve. French Ligue has PSG and Monaco.

If any of those clubs had a bad season, I don't think anyone would doubt that they're still top dogs and worth playing for. Each of those clubs enjoys so much more of a fanbase/revenue streams than the rest of their leagues that one bad season is not going to do them in, and most people would expect them to automatically bounce back in the next season. The fact that United is being questioned about being left behind owes much to the competitiveness of the EPL (in particular Chelsea, City, Arsenal and now Liverpool).

EDIT: Blanc being thrown in as a contender too according to some press reports. Although he is a former player (albeit at the end of his career), don't think he'd get it - doesn't have enough of a track record yet and wouldn't attract the big signings.