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[Book Spoilers] EP405 Discussion

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It would be pretty hilarious if Victarion and that entire plotline were entirely eliminated with a throwaway line from Daario about getting 93 ships for Dany. Ditto if Quentyn's storyline was reduced to the single line "Some random asshole accidentally freed the dragons."

I would laugh.

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If providing ships turned out to be the only plot-consequential thing Victarion did in the books, there's approximately zero chance he would make it into the show. Martin never felt the need to build a whole subplot around the Golden Company's shipping fleet. They hired some ships. End of story.


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One little thing that bothered me in this episode: Sansa licking her fingers when eating the lemon cakes. Even in the Middle Ages, licking one's fingers was considered bad table manners, and someone as exquisitely drilled in etiquette and courtesy as Sansa would never do it, even while feeling relaxed in front of a family member she believed she could trust. No way.

...I thought I'd be more disturbed by the Hound backhanding Arya than I turned out to be. I did love Arya's water dancing, though.

Yes the finger licking thing looked OOC to me also.

On the Arya thing, I find it OK; she's been fresh and arrogant since the beginning, and almost without consequences. In contraposition, since Sansa always had to act submissive, she (Sansa) is considered lame and spineless. Arya is lucky her captors seem to humour her.

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It would be pretty hilarious if Victarion and that entire plotline were entirely eliminated with a throwaway line from Daario about getting 93 ships for Dany. Ditto if Quentyn's storyline was reduced to the single line "Some random asshole accidentally freed the dragons."

I pray that there is no Quentyn, it will be a blessing, LOL.

I don't really care about Vic, but my guess is that the Greyjoys are going to be more important in subsequent books so they will have to at least have one of them.

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If providing ships turned out to be the only plot-consequential thing Victarion did in the books, there's approximately zero chance he would make it into the show. Martin never felt the need to build a whole subplot around the Golden Company's shipping fleet. They hired some ships. End of story.

There is that dragon horn business...

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was that fan theory?

is no one else interested in that tidbit? are they really implying that the realm is substantially funded directly by the lannisters and now they're broke?

I don't recall hearing that theory before, but I definitely found it interesting and shocking.

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I had no issue with Cersei offering up the Tommen/Marg match. I think she suspected that Tywin would make that decision anyway, so why not make it seem like it was her idea and hopefully curry favor with Mace before the trial? If the valonqar prophecy is ever introduced into show canon, she's had reason to fear Tyrion for years. Now she thinks he's murdered her son, and no doubt believes he'll be back to finish her and her two remaining kids--unless she can make sure he loses this trial and is executed. To get the weight of that prophecy off of her shoulders, I can see her going to great lengths and doing things she finds distasteful, like cozying up to Marg.


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How comes all the purists arent yelling about LF saying Sansa is his neice and not bastard daughter?

They are. Trying reading a few more pages. Not that it really matters in the end.

All the additions to Aryas list! How come joffery wasnt on it though? Indicating she knows he's dead???

Very first name.

How come all the haters didnt say Lysa talking about Cats sweet tooth wasn't a filler?

Because in a way, its also showing the viewers how a) jealous she was of Cat b) batshit crazy she is, she goes from feeding Sansa lemoncakes to 11 in a heart beat and c) is also instilling some doubt in Sansa, shes that weird relative that insults you but does it in a way that it makes you feel guilty. It also told us how LF brought the lemons especially for her and lead to the interrogation of Sansa. Totally acceptable filler IMO.

Here's another one for u purists...Brienne/Pod horse ride? Not filler?

Setting up for Lady Stoneheart. Showing the growth between Pod and Brienne and also making us feel sympathetic for them only for Lady Stoneheart to hang em up.

Brienne seemed so impressed that pod killed a kingsguard...I almost thought shes gona climb on her high horse and start yelling at poor kid for stabbing him from behind...guess that kind hate only for Kingslayer? Or maybe they showing shes growing up and not judging everyone so quickly.

A bit like the scenes with her and Jaime. She is so quick to judge only for her to be mistaken. She realized that Pod is extremely loyal and would do anything he can to help. Much like she realised that theres more to Jaime than the Kingslayer. Again, setting up the relationship for LS.

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I just have to restate how in-conceived and poorly executed the entire Lock subplot was this season. I like the actor and his performance, but what a train wreck.



Let's recap. Locke is sent on an assassination mission to wipe out the remaining Stark heirs in the North. He miraculously moves from the Dreadfort to Castle Black in record time while the Wildling's mill about in the Reach eating and killing locals. He then ingratiates himself with Jon Snow, presumably to eventually kill him at an opportune moment. He, logically, then joins Jon's mission to kill the Night's Watch rapers at Craster's Keep.



For some reason, Locke of all people is sent to scout Craster's Keep. The one guy on the mission who has never ever seen Craster's camp?!?! What the hell? He then super conveniently stumbles onto Team Bran and decides during the planned assault he is now going to kidnap Bran? To what end? He is going to take Bran south to the Boltons? Past Castle Black and rest of the Night's Watch? Even though, he was sent to kill off heirs?



It hurts my head....

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Wildling's mill about in the Reach eating and killing locals.

he is now going to kidnap Bran? To what end? He is going to take Bran south to the Boltons? Past Castle Black and rest of the Night's Watch? Even though, he was sent to kill off heirs?

It hurts my head....

Wildlings in the Reach?. Someone send a raven to Willas immediately:p

Exactly..he's sent to kill the heirs, how is he going to find Rickon unless he gets it out of Bran? It was never suggested that he'd cross the Wall with Bran, presumably he was taking him away from Craster's so he wouldn't be found extracting the info from him by the NW.

Edited by NightStark

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Hodor was pretty 'Johnny on the spot' freeing Jojen and Meera - took him about 15 seconds from the time he left Bran's side until they all popped back on screen.



How did Hodor heal so immediately after having a spear stuck through his leg?



Why exactly did Bran allow them to do endure captivity for so long if the entire time he had the ability to lead their escape?



If Jon is as overprotective as everyone seems to think, the only logical conclusion is that he'll venture north to find and save Bran. It seems to me that Jojen and Bran think so little of Jon that they can't trust him not to interfere in their quest, and they care so little about his safety that they don't care whether he exposes himself to completely unnecessary danger.



Either Bran and Jojen are dicks, or D&D are shitty writers.


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It seems to me that Jojen and Bran think so little of Jon that they can't trust him not to interfere in their quest

In fairness, it's not an unfair assumption to make on their part. What person would allow their crippled younger brother, a sickly looking boy, a young girl and a simple giant to go wandering beyond the Wall? It's not that they're casting aspertions on Jon's character, more that they realise the absurdity of what they're doing and how crazy it would sound if they tried to explain it.

'We're looking for a raven with three eyes Jon, he's up here somewhere'.

Edited by NightStark

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In regards to Cersei acting out of character by not being completely awful to everyone.... I think that it had to do with that scene with Tywin, and thinking that the best way to get out of the Willas/Loras marriage is to not cockblock Marge & Tom



Anyway, that was my thinking... which would mean that she wasn't actually out of character at all...



Otherwise:



No Tyrion.... shocked.



They do seem to be spelling everything out in the show.... "I killed my husband and lied to my sister for you!"



But Nymph-for Petyr, jealous psycho Lyssa rules. Robin drobbing LF's gift throught the moon door = hilarious. Well "niece" Alayne be a Stone?



Why didn't Vargo Locke just kill Bran?... how did he think he would get him back to the Dreadfort past the wall?



Jojen tripping on acid kind of weird... imprisoning direwolves, kind of dumb... raping every other woman *but* Meera? major plot hole.



much prefer non-emo Jon



Laughed at the Hound laughing at "how great could that dude have been if a jizzbag like Meryn Trant kicked his ass"?



Pod aint no Martha Stewart



and... whoever first came up with "Willem Defoe".... bravo

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In fairness, it's not an unfair assumption to make on their part. What person would allow their crippled younger brother, a sickly looking boy, a young girl and a simple giant to go wandering beyond the Wall? It's not that they're casting aspertions on Jon's character, more that they realise the absurdity of what they're doing and how crazy it would sound if they tried to explain it.

'We're looking for a raven with three eyes Jon, he's up here somewhere'.

So Jojen, a complete stranger, was able to instantly convince Bran to risk his life on this absurd quest; yet Jon, with the baseline of already knowing and trusting Bran, would be unable to be convinced to merely step aside?

Rather than having an insultingly low opinion of Jon, they apparently think that Jon has absolutely no faith at all in Bran. I don't see how that's any better.

I also think it's comical that show!Jojen would lack the confidence to convince anyone of the importance or validity of their quest. The kid is a blue light saber and scruffy beard short of being Obi-Wan...

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So Jojen, a complete stranger, was able to instantly convince Bran to risk his life on this absurd quest; yet Jon, with the baseline of already knowing and trusting Bran, would be unable to be convinced to merely step aside?

Rather than having an insultingly low opinion of Jon, they apparently think that Jon has absolutely no faith at all in Bran. I don't see how that's any better.

I also think it's comical that show!Jojen would lack the confidence to convince anyone of the importance or validity of their quest. The kid is a blue light saber and scruffy beard short of being Obi-Wan...

You're aware that in the books when they meet Sam they beg him not to reveal to anyone that Bran is alive?

Sam was staring at him. 'You're Jon Snow's brother. The one who fell...'

'No' said Jojen. 'That boy is dead'

'Don't tell' Bran warned. 'Please.'

Jon would definitely have stopped them, he said as much to Sam at Castle Black. Do you really think he'd let them wander in a place with Others, wights and a massive wildling army? They managed to get captured by a group of halfwits from the NW, they woudln't stand a chance in Jon's eyes.

Their story isn't very convincing..they're going to see a three eyed raven ffs. Who is going to believe that?

Why do you think Coldhands extracted the promise from Sam not to tell anyone in the books? Because if he did word would get to Jon who is the only one who would care that Bran is beyond the Wall and pursue them.

Edited by NightStark

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You're aware that in the books when they meet Sam they beg him not to reveal to anyone that Bran is alive?

Jon would definitely have stopped them, he said as much to Sam at Castle Black. Do you really think he'd let them wander in a place with Others, wights and a massive wildling army? They managed to get captured by a group of halfwits from the NW, they woudln't stand a chance in Jon's eyes.

Their story isn't very convincing..they're going to see a three eyed raven ffs. Who is going to believe that?

Why do you think Coldhands extracted the promise from Sam not to tell anyone in the books? Because if he did word would get to Jon who is the only one who would care that Bran is beyond the Wall and pursue them.

Well if we're going to ask insulting questions that insinuate the other person is an idiot: You do understand that there is a difference between a book and a television show, right?

And that show!Jojen refers to show!Jojen while book!Jojen refers to book!Jojen?

And that things which occurred in the books but not the show are things which occurred in the books but not the show?

You could have simply answered "Yes." As in, "I think it's plausible that Jojen, a complete stranger, was able to instantly convince Bran to risk his life on this absurd quest; yet Jon, with the baseline of already knowing and trusting Bran, would be unable to be convinced to merely step aside."

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