[Books & Show Spoilers] the Viper

[Jay92]

By the way, I usually look at IMDB ratings as a means to see how well the show is doing in relation to previous seasons, since quite a large number of people view there, providing a better representative of the average person's views on the episodes.

So far, if we consider Episodes 1-5 of each season, the average rating per episode, until each seasons midway point, is:

Season 1: 8.82

Season 2: 8.76

Season 3: 8.86

Season 4: 9.10

Season 4 is miles ahead when compared.

Also, it looks like it will easily have the highest average rating for Episodes 6-10 also.

So far, for 6-10, the average ratings are:

Season 1: 9.24

Season 2: 9.16

Season 3: 9.06

S4E6 and S4E7 got a 9.8 and a 9.3 rating respectively, which averages out to an astounding average of 9.55. The last 3 episodes, I am sure, will all end up with 9.5 plus, so the average will stay stagnant or will ascend even higher.

I agree with the general consensus, that this has been the best season, by far. There is negativity in some places, sure, bet there always is at this time of the season. Last year, almost everyone on facebook was saying that Season 3 is extremely boring, etc. However, after the last 3 episodes air, it all changes. I'm sure the extremely small minority of people who don't like the season will change their minds after the coming trio.

I agree. I've been seeing people comment's saying its the worst season and its boring... which I don't get. There has been more action in this season than any other season with plenty of great scenes and dialogues.

I watched seasons 1-3 as a show watcher only and up until this season, season 1 was probably the best one for me because it felt like the most complete season.

[Milcov]

I'm sorry, but I highly doubt that Martin was using this opportunity to shed light on the inner depths of Donal Noye's psyche, a relatively minor side character despite his awesome demise. Dialogue like this gives us important insight in further understanding the Baratheon brothers, as Noye seems like a relatively detatched third party all things considered, and honestly it would be poor writing if it was thrown out there for no reason. Robert was as you said a "drunken oaf" but he never lacked for internal fortitude, and if nothing else, had the strength not only to usurp the throne, but to keep the Seven Kingdoms together afterwards. Noye is likely speaking both towards his strength as a warrior, his charisma, and the strength of his convictions. All in all, even with his drinking and whoring, the Seven Kingdoms wasn't really all that bad off under Robert in comparison to Joffrey, Tommen, or Aerys, and that's not really saying much but it's something. Saying he's the "true steel" doesn't neccessarily imply he doesn't have a good deal of faults, however. As for the other two, his thoughts on Stannis are completely accurate, and totally reflected in everything we've seen of him in the novels. I guess you can debate the Renly point, but I certainly had the sense that despite his people skills Renly himself was arrogant and weak. And not just weak in terms of being a warrior. Olenna's quote also reinforces this point: "He knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king."

I doubt Martin intends it to be totally about Donal Noye but he's also aware that the dialogue he writes from his characters have to come from them, and not simply his own views of those characters (Baratheon's). Noye's assessment of Stannis is pretty spot-on, but he's way off on Robert. You can say that the Seven Kingdoms did okay under Robert, but that's because he just buts out and lets Jon Arryn reign. Which means that at his best Robert can be compared with Tommen who also leaves actual ruling to others. The difference of course being that Tommen is a child. Any assessment of Robert as "true steel" is so far off base that I can't trust the character judgement of any who makes it. On Renly I side more with you and Olenna than Renly's view of himself as he doesn't seem to think things through very well, but I don't trust Noye at all.

[The onion wight]

I have never loved a character in the book and now in the show the same way I love Oberyn; while him living would be the the most glorious moment of S4 (along with Joffs death) I think his death is necessary.

Speaking of deaths though shouldn't...

shouldnt Sando be dead as well if im not mistaken Polliver= the battle that horribly wounds Clegane. Anyone else tgnk his bite will fester and he'll die?

Didn't you notice the whole, 'you better clean the wound or you'll get an infection'?

Their relationship in the TV show is way more sentimental than in the books so it'll be mixed feelings all round.

[The onion wight]

I doubt Martin intends it to be totally about Donal Noye but he's also aware that the dialogue he writes from his characters have to come from them, and not simply his own views of those characters (Baratheon's). Noye's assessment of Stannis is pretty spot-on, but he's way off on Robert. You can say that the Seven Kingdoms did okay under Robert, but that's because he just buts out and lets Jon Arryn reign. Which means that at his best Robert can be compared with Tommen who also leaves actual ruling to others. The difference of course being that Tommen is a child. Any assessment of Robert as "true steel" is so far off base that I can't trust the character judgement of any who makes it. On Renly I side more with you and Olenna than Renly's view of himself as he doesn't seem to think things through very well, but I don't trust Noye at all.

I don't think his assessment of any of them was particularly accurate. Stannis is not inflexible, he's made plenty of compromises and bent the rules when he's had to. Even Renly can't have been the frivolous peacock, he managed to win over the Stormlands from his brother and ally with another powerful house to assemble the biggest army in Westeros. If it hadn't been for inflexible Stannis making a shadow baby with a sorceress (truly the action of a hide bound conservative!) he'd be King by now.

IMO Noye was used to summarise how the Baratheon brothers were viewed in Westeros and as readers we're expected to decide if that's really true. Unfortunately the TV show Stannis is such a travesty I'm genuinely wondering if I can carry on watching it, though Davos is bang on the money so maybe I'll half close my eyes and concentrate on him.

[Rattleskirt]

I wish people would stop thinking Elia died differently! The great sword is an analogy to Gregor's dick. It's not hard to realize....

[The Ghost of Rhaegar]

the red viper is one of my favorite characters from the show now. i wish there was a good way for him to survive. i like the idea of him being disqualified for poison, sentenced to death and then he and tyrion taking off together. jorah isn't there (at the moment) to hook up with tyrion so maybe some more plot changes do lie ahead.

[HarlQuinn]

Didn't you notice the whole, 'you better clean the wound or you'll get an infection'?

Their relationship in the TV show is way more sentimental than in the books so it'll be mixed feelings all round.

In fact I did it was a nice bit of foreshadowing if you ask me and I think it wad a way to extend his death because in all honesty him dying a few episodes later wouldnt hurt. I wish they could do the same for Overyn, but his abrupt death is what trigger many storylines. Looking forward to next Sunday and yet dreading it.

[Le Cygne]

Oberyn, I guess it depends on what they are going to do with the Dorne storyline. I agree, his death is what triggers the rest of the story there.

Sandor, who knows, seems like if this was going to fester, it would happen sooner, rather than later. There's a big fight scene ahead, how is he going to fight in a weakened state?

Brienne fell into a fever pretty quickly, and was very weak, but she didn't die from the bite.

[Ruin]

I wouldn't mind getting a scene with Tyene reading her father's 'poem' aloud, revealing the Myrcella plot to the show viewers.

[Ruin]

I wouldn't mind getting a scene next season depicting the moment the Sand Snakes learnt of their father's death.

Nymeria is slowly reading the message, refusing to believe the message's contents. Obara drops her spear and falls to her knees, and Tyene remains emotionless and quiet. Afterwards, Nym and Obara decide to set out and find Doran. Tyene stays behind, and pulls out the poem Oberyn wrote in season 4. Tyene begins to read it aloud to herself. It will reveal the Myrcella plot to the viewers, and perhaps even a hint/instructions to kill Tommen.

[Konradsmith]

Given some of this discussion on how the Sandor "death" will go down, I recommend (re)watching the "weapons and training" featurette on the GoT youtube channel. C.C. Smiff the swordmaster for the show talks about how the Hound is powerful and can "just chop you in half". Over this we don't see a single bit of the Inn fight from episode one but we do get looks at Rory and Maisie when they filmed in Iceland in the cliffy sort of area they've used for the Vale thus far this season. These snippets show a fight, though they purposefully confuse the viewer as to who the fight will be with. We do get a look at some Knights of the Vale in the video so that settles it for me.

This much alone leads me to believe that Sandor will be in "good form" (as Cersei said of Gregor last ep.) when he faces his last (for a while at least) fight. And given the glimpses of Arya training in the same video she may well help out a good deal too. The Mountain and the Viper may well be the best episode of the show so far, that is until ep. nine and ten come along.

[Ignorant Bog Woman]

I wouldn't mind getting a scene next season depicting the moment the Sand Snakes learnt of their father's death.

Nymeria is slowly reading the message, refusing to believe the message's contents. Obara drops her spear and falls to her knees, and Tyene remains emotionless and quiet. Afterwards, Nym and Obara decide to set out and find Doran. Tyene stays behind, and pulls out the poem Oberyn wrote in season 4. Tyene begins to read it aloud to herself. It will reveal the Myrcella plot to the viewers, and perhaps even a hint/instructions to kill Tommen.

I prefer if they were introduced as they were in the book - pleading to Doran to take action with their own plans. Except all at once, taking turns.

[Arrowtic]

the red viper is one of my favorite characters from the show now. i wish there was a good way for him to survive. i like the idea of him being disqualified for poison, sentenced to death and then he and tyrion taking off together. jorah isn't there (at the moment) to hook up with tyrion so maybe some more plot changes do lie ahead.

He's my most favorite character ever , but still I hope he dies ! That kind of death will make him immortal in people's minds , just like Ned Stark . The way you suggested will decrease his charisma deeply and it'll destroy that aura around him . I just hope that The Mountain dies in the same episode and his death won't be postponed to episode 10 so at least Prince Oberyn will dies just before getting his long awaited revenge .

P.S1 : I don't think I'll be able to endure his violent death :(

P.S2 : Just think about Prince Doran's line in the next season : Vengeance , Justice , Fire and Blood .

[boojam]

Just wonder what people think about the vipers...

death. I belief that he will kill the mountain but not die as in the books. I hope they are going to combine Quentyn and Oberyn, making Oberyn propose to Dany and then die by fire :)

We have seen alot of differences so far, this is one i would welcome. How about you guys?

I tell you the book confused me on this issue, because in Feast Gregor just flat dies ... even if Qyburn did the Dr. Frankenstein thing to him, the walking dead is dead!

So here's my confusion, where they going to wait and see if Gregor dies or not?

What happens in this ‘trial by combat’ thing if both combatants die? Is it a draw and they have to do it again until there is somebody dies? Or is the way of it whoever dies first? That does not seem fair.

Yeah, I know, Cersei was out to get him anyway… but that means that Tywin loses Dorne as an ally which he does not want. The Wiki says that Tywin was willing to sacrifice Gregor , and that sounds reasonable, tho I don’t remember it from the book. It’s seems that Tywin loses worse than Tyrion by what is in the book.

[boojam]

Someone mention it?, but I’ll do it again.

It is odd that the show has not used the word Red Viper once, is that right?

Here we have an episode with Oberyn’s sobriquet.

So is it going to be said out loud on the show?

Why hide it until now?

Looks like we get Red Viper before we get the dragon’s names!!!!!!

[Arkash]

The most easy way to introduce the "Red Viper" nickname is to have Oberyn tell Tyrion before the duel : "Don't worry, I am not called the Red Viper of Dorne for nothing."

[Ignorant Bog Woman]

The most easy way to introduce the "Red Viper" nickname is to have Oberyn tell Tyrion before the duel : "Don't worry, I am not called the Red Viper of Dorne for nothing."

-"A spear!? You mean to take on The Mountain That Rides with a bloody spear!?"

-"The spear will allow me to attack The Enormity That Rides from a good range, and it will also serve another purpose." *twirls the spearhead, glistening and oily*

-"Is that... poison?"

-"They don't call me the Red Viper of Dorne for nothing."

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Didn't you notice the whole, 'you better clean the wound or you'll get an infection'?

Their relationship in the TV show is way more sentimental than in the books so it'll be mixed feelings all round.

I just had a flashback to all the trolling the writers of Lost did with the word infection.

[TheGreenBell]

I'm sorry but Red Viper needs to die. He's my favorite character as well, if he lives it'll change the story.

But i'm hoping the mountain will die in the same ep or something.

[Mordos_Kull]

Nah we can't have the Mountain die as well.

We need his screams of pain as Qyburn treats him.

Plus, it's a better episode when the good guys lose.