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[Book Spoilers] EP406 Discussion

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YarAsha showed great smarts in seeing her cause was futile despite her ambitions and hard work/long trip. That's why they retreated. Why risk her men further?

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Watching again.

(1) The whole sequence from the IB conference room to Salladhor Saan is just a gem!

What fine actors.

(2)The Yara/Asha side story. When she's giving the pep talk on the ship, what the hell happened to about 30 of the other Ironborn? Maybe she picked a rading party? , but season 3 there DID seem to be 50 really ornery Ironborn bad asses.

Why are there only five Ironborn heavies with Asha? How come she looses even two of them? Ramsay seems to lose all his men!

All things being even, Asha should have just killed Ramsay just for the hell of it?

Actually the way the scene cuts away she really does not seem concerned by the dogs.

I can see that D&D wanted to reinterpret Asha as less glam but hard bitten salty sea-bitch as Yara (George may have wanted them to change the name?) So be it, I am liking Gemma Whelan in this role. (Gemma , herself, is no glamor queen, but in real life attractive... sure have made her a hard as nails looking.)

(3) At the small council meeting , odd thing. Varys knows about the Hound's dust up at the inn, but says nothing, but nothing about Arya? No, his 'birds' would have known who she was.

Curious.

Strangely Tywin , sort of dismisses the dragons, while at Harrenhal tells Arya Dragons are WMDs.

If they ever become War Dragons Westeros is toast.

What did he write on that paper Mace fetched?

Edited by boojam

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He betrayed Jorah, so that Dany had one experienced knight less to advise her.

Who is 'he'?

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The child wasn't roasted, it was only the goat. Otherwise Dany would have freaked the hell out. I hope they add that eventually though.

In the book, she was having to pay every shepherd for their sheep and goats because she paid the first guy, so this decision should set up for more trouble down the line for Dany. The child's bones didn't happen til later.

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So the Hound being spotted slaughtering some King's knights is noted by Varys, but not the fact that a girl around the age and with the looks of Arya (body never found) is with him and participated? Reference here is mostly the TV version and Varys' intel at the Council meeting.

Not being snarky, just saying. Whoever witnessed the Hound saying "Fluck the King" surely reported the girl with him. Why would the Hound be travelling with a random girl?

So I think Varys knows.

And yes, the books never explain how stupid the nobles of the Vale are. re: Sansa/Alayne.

Varys probably picked up on Sandor's affinity for Sansa. If Varys heard that Sandor was traveling with a young girl, it would make sense to assume that Sandor had come across another girl, felt some affinity, and now they they were traveling together. In the ravaged lands, there are lots of young girls in need of protectors, and a percentage of them would have a personality or appearance interesting to Sandor. Further, Sandor was kind of creepy with Sansa - the idea that he might pick up a young sexual object is also entirely plausible. The Mountain's men were very confused about why Sandor had deserted and what he was up to, but they didn't think it was weird at all for him to have a young female companion. People don't expect Sandor to serve as escort for noble ladies.

As for Sansa, I thought Littlefinger's plan was to keep quiet and maintain plausible deniability until Kings Landing lost interest in Sansa or collapsed and Tyrion was dead, and then unveil her. Didn't he mention toward the end of the book that he wanted rumors to start up about Sansa being in the Vale? Whether he wants to marry her or use her political status, he needs her to be Sansa and not his bastard daughter. Pretty sure he wants people to see through her flimsy disguise and convenient timing.

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No way did Olenna want Sansa caught in that way. She is clever, not mean to innocents. This is one of the mysteries of who did what with the poison and when.

Margery thought that too. Olenna didn't spell out that she framed Sansa to Margery, but with the necklace evidence, Margery put it together. Olenna was willing for Sansa to be caught and executed. She probably didn't prefer it, but she was willing.

Margery is fine with manipulation and lying, but I think she honestly didn't believer that her grandmother, who she loves and respects, would assassinate somebody and let two innocent decent people go down for it. Now Margery has to decide what she's willing to do and what she can live with.

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I think you missed the part where Jaime tells Tyrion to keep his mouth shut because he spoke with Tywin and found out his life is going to be spared and he will be sent to the wall. So now Tyrion knows Tywin's plan. He just gets to a breaking point with Shae and decides screw it, 'I've been treated unfairly by my father for my entire life and this is the last straw. Screw him. I'll risk my life to completely stick it to him and mess up whatever plan he has' He definitely hasn't talked with Oberyn yet because it hasn't been said that the Mountain will be the one chosen to fight against Tyrion. It's only when Oberyn finds out that the Mountain is the one picked that he decides to fight for Tyrion.

Thanks, but I think you missed the part where that has anything to do with a coherent plan by Tyrion to foil his dad's plans. That's just his dad's mercy, he doesn't recognize it's part of a strategy to get Jaime's compliance.

The fact that Tyrion has no plan is a big down-er from the book version where you get to see his intelligence and desperation on display both at once.

Edited by eumaies

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Yes, he should have left Sansa to her fate and looked the other way when she got beaten, so inconsiderate of him.

Why should Tyrion *Lannister* care one bit if Sansa *Stark* is being beaten?

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Margery thought that too. Olenna didn't spell out that she framed Sansa to Margery, but with the necklace evidence, Margery put it together. Olenna was willing for Sansa to be caught and executed. She probably didn't prefer it, but she was willing.

Margery is fine with manipulation and lying, but I think she honestly didn't believer that her grandmother, who she loves and respects, would assassinate somebody and let two innocent decent people go down for it. Now Margery has to decide what she's willing to do and what she can live with.

It's worth remembering that LF engineered the poisoning and Sansa's escape, guided the Tyrells to not only want Joffrey dead but Loras in the KG (in the books), and has been a Lannister- Tyrell macher the whole time. I could see Olenna taking LF's word that Sansa would be safe enough for her conscience.

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How would he know that, exactly? The only other people who know Arya is even alive are Gendry, Hot Pie, and a few members of the Brotherhood.

The Hound abandons his post in spite and is seen traveling northward with a little girl -- and, ironically, Arya has never been accounted for.

Varys can connect dots. Or at least it would cause him to be suspicious.

Edited by hedgeknight001

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Oh god, by that definition, everyone through history who doesn't share our values today was a cruel human being. It's ridiculous to make judgments like that without taking anything else into account.I've read "Beloved", by the way. I've read quite a few books about the horrors of slavery as well as segregation- I'm not saying it was okay. But I'm not going to say that everyone who ever owned a slave was a 'cruel and terrible' human being, because that's in no way true. Slavery has been used by every culture in the world at one point or another as an economic tool - it's no different in Essos.

Very well-stated.

Slavery (in reality, not GoT) has been practiced by nearly every pre- or non-Christian society, and a few Christian ones as well. Thousands of years of the institution in innumerable cultures did not produce a single "slave narrative." It didn't even do so in the US, where it was practiced for less than 200 years -- Kenneth Stampp's "The Peculiar Institution" and Eugene Genovese's "Roll Jordan Roll" are good studies of the diversity, if you will, of slavery just in the US.

Now try to apply the moral, legal, social, and economic aspects of slavery in reality to a fantasy world. I'm not sure what lessons one can derive from such an exercise, if there are any at all.

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It's worth remembering that LF engineered the poisoning and Sansa's escape, guided the Tyrells to not only want Joffrey dead but Loras in the KG (in the books), and has been a Lannister- Tyrell macher the whole time. I could see Olenna taking LF's word that Sansa would be safe enough for her conscience.

Possibly Olenna knew or suspected that Littlefinger wanted to spirit Sansa away, but it is equally possible that he didn't tell her about that part of the plan. He didn't need Olenna's cooperation to spirit Sansa away. But even if Olenna's plan was that Sansa would escape with Littlefinger, Olenna knows that she's putting Sansa in a really bad position totally at the mercy of a creep like Littlefinger.

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Varys probably picked up on Sandor's affinity for Sansa. If Varys heard that Sandor was traveling with a young girl, it would make sense to assume that Sandor had come across another girl, felt some affinity, and now they they were traveling together. In the ravaged lands, there are lots of young girls in need of protectors, and a percentage of them would have a personality or appearance interesting to Sandor. Further, Sandor was kind of creepy with Sansa - the idea that he might pick up a young sexual object is also entirely plausible. The Mountain's men were very confused about why Sandor had deserted and what he was up to, but they didn't think it was weird at all for him to have a young female companion. People don't expect Sandor to serve as escort for noble ladies.

As for Sansa, I thought Littlefinger's plan was to keep quiet and maintain plausible deniability until Kings Landing lost interest in Sansa or collapsed and Tyrion was dead, and then unveil her. Didn't he mention toward the end of the book that he wanted rumors to start up about Sansa being in the Vale? Whether he wants to marry her or use her political status, he needs her to be Sansa and not his bastard daughter. Pretty sure he wants people to see through her flimsy disguise and convenient timing.

iirc, LF wanted to reveal Sansa during the wedding to Harry, after Tyrion was dead(or declared dead)and the Lannister out of power.

about Varys picking up Sansan, it would have been hard too, since they were "close" out of side, in private, in public they were different.

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My point was that it actually wasn't at first. There were many white and black indentured servants in the new world. And I don't want to get into a debate about who the first slave owner was in what would become the United States, but at least one of the first legally recognized slave owners was a black man who sued and won indefinite custody of another black man, despite testimony from two white indentured servants that the black servant had fulfilled his agreement.

I know this, so why are you being so snarky about slavery? I know all this and more.

It is impossible to have a serious discussion on this blog about serious issues without the whole discussion descending into drivel and/or attack?

Edited by BlueDragon

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It's worth remembering that LF engineered the poisoning and Sansa's escape, guided the Tyrells to not only want Joffrey dead but Loras in the KG (in the books), and has been a Lannister- Tyrell macher the whole time. I could see Olenna taking LF's word that Sansa would be safe enough for her conscience.

This sounds right to me.

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I know this, so why are you being so snarky about slavery? I know all this and more.

It is impossible to have a serious discussion on this blog about serious issues without the whole discussion descending into drivel and/or attack?

but there are other places here you can talk about it. General Chatter is one place if you were going to compare the slavery shown in Essos with real day matters.

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but there are other places here you can talk about it. General Chatter is one place if you were going to compare the slavery shown in Essos with real day matters.

I get that, but slavery is a real issue in the show and many on this blog want to 'justify' all sorts of things that happen in this narrative with the line 'it was like that in the Middle Ages' (which I find dubious, at best, but no matter at present).

And narrative exists to teach humans how to be human and what to do and what not to do. So what the show and book narrative teaches us couldn't be more important.

Also, lots of people want to condemn Dany for her mistakes while they redeem everyone from Jaime to the Hound to Stannis.

I think discussing all of this is relevant on the main threads.

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Speaking of Ironborn, why the hell have they not cast the Greyjoy uncles yet?

They probably won't until after this season, I think they are currently doing scouting locations right now, I would think for Dorne, Tyrions adventures, other spots in the North like Deepwood Motte, etc.

I'm also 100% sure at least one of the uncles will be cast. Tyrion references one to Theon in season one. He just says "your uncle" though, talking about the 1st Greyjoy rebellion to him.

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