(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Was during the reading the date for the War of the Ninepenny Kings confirmed? Was it 260AC? Or 261AC? Can anybody tell me?

[Bael's Bastard]

Age of Heroes was apparently thousand of years before Andal invasion so it's pretty a stretch that he was a lone Andal that somehow appeared on the Sunset sea cost. Really, Lann's backstory is just guessing, nobody knows from where he appeared and who he was and nobody will know. For all means and purposes he was a First Man. Blond hair means nothing. Val is blond and she has arguably a pure First Men blood. And it does not matter anyway. I agree, Lann may have not even existed. What matters is that in the reading it is said that Andals never managed to conquer Westerlands and were just allowed to settle there by the kings of the Westerlands while intermarrying in the process. Thus, the current Lannisters should be the same house that existed before Andals had come.

The first Andals to arrive saw a bloody end by King Tybolt Thunderbolt.

However, the Westerlands became worn down by the arriving Andals, and Tyrion III and Gerold II saw that they would be doomed, so they married some Andals and gave lands and wives to them. They also took young Andals as wards/hostages.

Thus, many young men were turned from foes to friends. It was said that their blood ran gold.

Houses with Andal roots mentioned: Jast, Lefford, Drox, Brax, Serrett, Sarsfield, Marbrand. Also named were House Kindle (Kindel? no prior mention of this house, so unsure of spelling) and Stackspear (unsure, went by memory with Stackspear).

This contradicts the previous Lann's female descendant's origin. Sure, there is a chance that it's Lannister propaganda, but what's the point for George to publish a history full of bullshit?

Can you elaborate on what you see as contradictory?

The appendix says House Lannister is blood of Andals, and claims descent from Lann through a female line.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Can you elaborate on what you see as contradictory?

The appendix says House Lannister is blood of Andals, and claims descent from Lann through a female line.

I've noted that Martin likes the device of giving 2 or 3 versions of a story, with one being dismissed as absurd, only to turn out to be the closest to the truth.

It was similar with the initial reports of Dany's Dragons that filtered through to Westeros, and also the reports of Rangers trading with Giants Beyond the Wall etc.

In that vein, I believe that the last, allmost offhand mentioned origin story for the Lannisters, which was that Lann was a guardsman of Lord Casterly who impregnated his daugther, is likely the true one. So Lann was a First Man commoner, who winkled the Casterlys out of Casterly Rock by giving Lord Casterly his only surviving heir.

That would have been thousands of years before the Andals arrived. Then, millenia later, some Andals intermarried with the Lannisters to eventually "Andalize" their culture.

That ties up with the original history given to us back in Book 1, which was that the Lannisters claim descent from Lann the Clever through the female line. If the Andals married some distant female descendant of Lann, then that would indeed be the case. Furthermore, this is likely a bastardized version of the fact that Lann himself was only linked to an actual Age of Heroes Lord - Lord Casterly - through marrying his daughter.

Lann was just a common guardsman.

[AzureOwl]

Can you elaborate on what you see as contradictory?

The appendix says House Lannister is blood of Andals, and claims descent from Lann through a female line.

There is a contradiction. The appendix claims the Lannisters are Andals that claim descent from Lann thru the female line, but the reading implies that House Lannister started as a First Men House that later intermarried with Andal invaders.

The version of the reading implies unbroken male descent from Lann, while the appendix implies a purely Andal origin that later incorporated female descendents of Lann. For all practical purposes it's the same thing, but for a society obsessed with patriarchal descent it makes a big difference.

[Free Northman Reborn]

There is a contradiction. The appendix claims the Lannisters are Andals that claim descent from Lann thru the female line, but the reading implies that House Lannister started as a First Men House that later intermarried with Andal invaders.

The version of the reading implies unbroken male descent from Lann, while the appendix implies a purely Andal origin that later incorporated female descendents of Lann. For all practical purposes it's the same thing, but for a society obsessed with patriarchal descent it makes a big difference.

No it does not. The current day Lannisters could very well be descendants of male Andals who married a female descendant of Lann.

[AzureOwl]

No it does not. The current day Lannisters could very well be descendants of male Andals who married a female descendant of Lann.

True, but the contradiction we are talking about is whether

1. The Lannisters are descended from Lann the same way the Starks are descended from Brandon the Builder, or

The Lannisters are descended from Lann the same way the Baratheons are descended from Durran Godsgrief.

The appendix claims it's option 2) and the reading claims it's option 1).

The difference lies in what the House of Lann's Descendents was called before the Andals came.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think the truth lies somewhere inbetween.

Namely that they are descendant from Lann through the male line, but are descendant from Age of Heroes lord of Casterly Rock through the female line.

Because as it turns out, being descendant from Lann (the common guardsman), is no big deal. It is being descendant from his wife (Lord Casterly's daughter), that actually gives them a claim to power.

So over time the history became mangled. The Lannisters do claim Age of Heroes noble origin through the female line, but claim descent from Lann through the male line.

[AzureOwl]

I think the truth lies somewhere inbetween.

Namely that they are descendant from Lann through the male line, but are descendant from Age of Heroes lord of Casterly Rock through the female line.

Because as it turns out, being descendant from Lann (the common guardsman), is no big deal. It is being descendant from his wife (Lord Casterly's daughter), that actually gives them a claim to power.

So over time the history became mangled. The Lannisters do claim Age of Heroes noble origin through the female line, but claim descent from Lann through the male line.

That could very well be the truth. But in Westeros at the time of Yandel's writing, claiming descent from Lann, who is a popular legendary figure is probably more prestigious than claiming descent from the Casterlys that are made fun of in all the songs.

Hence the conflicting narratives.

[HexMachina]

About Castamere, I think I have another indicator it isnt still flooded:

"...while the Greatjon has seized the gold mines at Castamere, Nunn's Deep and the Pendric Hills." Ser Wendel laughed. "Nothing's more like to bring a Lannister running than a threat to his gold."

I can't see the Greatjon seizing a flooded ruin.of a mine somehow

[History of Westeros]

Was during the reading the date for the War of the Ninepenny Kings confirmed? Was it 260AC? Or 261AC? Can anybody tell me?

It was confirmed that Jason Lannister died on Bloodstone in 260 during the war. No hint of when it actually started or ended, just that it was underway by then. Presumably the war (at least the parts relevant to Westeros) started with Maelys' invasion of the Stepstones. Since Bloodstone is the closest to Westeros (or about as close as Grey Gallows), this might indicate the war was still in the early stages.

[History of Westeros]

About Castamere, I think I have another indicator it isnt still flooded:

"...while the Greatjon has seized the gold mines at Castamere, Nunn's Deep and the Pendric Hills." Ser Wendel laughed. "Nothing's more like to bring a Lannister running than a threat to his gold."

I can't see the Greatjon seizing a flooded ruin.of a mine somehow

That's a great catch. Perhaps they had other mines nearby that they didn't live in.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It was confirmed that Jason Lannister died on Bloodstone in 260 during the war. No hint of when it actually started or ended, just that it was underway by then. Presumably the war (at least the parts relevant to Westeros) started with Maelys' invasion of the Stepstones. Since Bloodstone is the closest to Westeros (or about as close as Grey Gallows), this might indicate the war was still in the early stages.

Ok, thanks! :D

I found a quote in Feast from septon Meribald that, in 300AC, the War of the Ninepenny Kings (the fights he had actually been in), would soon have been 40 years ago. I take that to mean that the war then ended in 261AC? It cannot have been later, due to Barristan having killed Maelys before joining the KG, and Barristan was 23 when he joined the KG, and he was only 23 in 260AC (22 turning 23) and 261AC (23 turning 24).

So the war lasted at least from 260 until 261? Cool :) I guess Jason died in the early stages then indeed.

[Lord Varys]

Well, now I can't use that sentence from the App in the German version, can I?

'Casterly Rock has now been in Lannister hands for thousands of years, since the first Andal adventurers conquered the westerlands and wrested the Rock from its prior occupants.'

1. We know that the Andals did not conquer the Westerlands.

2. We know that the Lannisters have been there before the Andals came. They may have married Andals later on, but they are not an Andal house.

[Bael's Bastard]

IMO Lannister and Casterly are both probably Andal-invented surnames based on the names of legendary First Men (Lann or Lannis, Caster), being projected back onto First Men times and stories.

Maybe Lann and Caster were names of First Men clans when the Andals came, and or maybe they were names of legendary ancestors of clans that called themselves something else.

I think it is possible First Men didn't use surnames or have noble houses or house names before the Andals came.

I don't think the current Lannisters being blood of Andals and claiming descent from Lann through a female line is necessarily contradictory to the appendix (though information in the appendix has been changed in stories, and even in story there are alternate contradictory stories and histories).

Even maesters don't agree on the timelines and when the Andal invasion and various other things took place. Nor do we know how those maesters with alternate timelines adjust or explain away dates of other things (Age of Heroes, Long Night, etc) as a result of their alternative timelines.

[Lion of the West]

I think the truth lies somewhere inbetween.

Namely that they are descendant from Lann through the male line, but are descendant from Age of Heroes lord of Casterly Rock through the female line.

Because as it turns out, being descendant from Lann (the common guardsman), is no big deal. It is being descendant from his wife (Lord Casterly's daughter), that actually gives them a claim to power.

So over time the history became mangled. The Lannisters do claim Age of Heroes noble origin through the female line, but claim descent from Lann through the male line.

While its possible the Lann might have been a guardsman who banged a noble chick, why did the child take a name after the common-born Lann and not after the much more prestigious Casterlys? And even more, why would the Andals trace their descent to the nobody called Lann and not to the somebody called lord Casterly?

IMO Lannister and Casterly are both probably Andal-invented surnames based on the names of legendary First Men (Lann or Lannis, Caster), being projected back onto First Men times and stories.

Maybe Lann and Caster were names of First Men clans when the Andals came, and or maybe they were names of legendary ancestors of clans that called themselves something else.

I think it is possible First Men didn't use surnames or have noble houses or house names before the Andals came.

I don't think the current Lannisters being blood of Andals and claiming descent from Lann through a female line is necessarily contradictory to the appendix (though information in the appendix has been changed in stories, and even in story there are alternate contradictory stories and histories).

Even maesters don't agree on the timelines and when the Andal invasion and various other things took place. Nor do we know how those maesters with alternate timelines adjust or explain away dates of other things (Age of Heroes, Long Night, etc) as a result of their alternative timelines.

I'm not sure I'm really buying that. We've had several examples of surnames for Houses in a region where one would be suprised to find them if they were indeed Andal constructs; Stark and Bolton, who claim ancient descent where the Andals never conquered and were the Andals were The Enemy. While I agree that many First Men have been Andalized over the years I'm not ready to write the entire House-institution to be entirely rooted in Andal culture.

Furthermore I would say that the text that we are basing this on is pointing in the direction that the Andal invasion was indeed a migration and not a regular invasion of a purely military sort. As well as its great to see Lannisters winning something now and then.

[The Sleeper]

I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. Tales from this far back are basically legends and propaganda. What most likely is supposed to have happened is that some of the newcomer andals married into the dominant house in the west and the resulting house evolved into the Lannisters.

ETA damn auto-correct turned Andals to Sandals.

ETA2 Another possibility is that the events or person that inspired Lann's legend originated in the Andals invasion but was pushed back as the years passed, into the Age of Heroes because it is an origin myth.

Compare it to the legends of the Arryns with griffin king and giant falcons which have a similarly mythical feel.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

ETA damn auto-correct turned Andals to Sandals.

Hahahah :D That just made my morning. I've had my share of autocorrects on this forum too, that I only noticed because people responded to them, asking me what I was talking about haha :p

[Bael's Bastard]

I am not suggesting that Andals invented all the surnames in Westeros. I am speculating that Andals brought the notion of surnames to Westeros. I still think First Men made their own surnames, just that they didn't do so until after the Andals. And that in some cases, like Lannister and Casterly, a legendary First Man name was transformed by Andals or Andalized First Men into a surname. Even if First Men already had surnames in general before the Andals, I don't think the full surnames Lannister and Casterly predated the Andal arrival, and I think the surnames are being projected back to a time when they didn't really exist, even if the line or family they are associated with do go back long before the Andal arrival.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I am not suggesting that Andals invented all the surnames in Westeros. I am speculating that Andals brought the notion of surnames to Westeros. I still think First Men made their own surnames, just that they didn't do so until after the Andals. And that in some cases, like Lannister and Casterly, a legendary First Man name was transformed by Andals or Andalized First Men into a surname. Even if First Men already had surnames in general before the Andals, I don't think the full surnames Lannister and Casterly predated the Andal arrival, and I think the surnames are being projected back to a time when they didn't really exist, even if the line or family they are associated with do go back long before the Andal arrival.

Well, seeing as the Andals now likely arrived no more than 3000 years ago, that would mean that the likes of House Stark would then have spent about 5000 years before that without a House name. That is obviously impossible. Clearly the First Men had surnames. Some of those may indeed have been Andalized in the South, after the Andals arrived.

[Bael's Bastard]

I am not sure when the Andals first started and ceased arriving, but I don't think it is at all impossible that the First Men (including those that became the Starks) did not have concepts of houses or surnames for however many thousands of years before the Andals came to Westeros.

I am not asserting clans, tribes, whatever of First Men did not have names for their clans, tribes, whatever before that. I am just skeptical that they had houses and surnames in any meaningful sense before that. I don't deny that First Men could have had surnames before the Andals, this is just my theory.

I think First Men were more along the lines of "_____ son of _____" and "_____ ancestor of _____ (legendary figure)" and "_____ of the _____ (clan name)" before the Andals came.

Even having never been conquered by the Andals or adopted the Seven, the North has adopted what is likely a mostly Andal language in vocabulary if not grammar, Andal writing where they previously had occasional runes, what is likely mostly Andal weaponry, armor, warfare, use of Maesters, and even before the Andals came some amount of them had already adopted the gods of the Children of the Forest.