(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

[History of Westeros]

Maia,

the thing is, it may not be mentioned, but I guess Tywin was ridiculed directly (and indirectly) just as often as Tytos, and he would have suffered that from a very early age onwards. As the eldest son, he would have gotten the full force of it, since people obviously gradually started to disrespect Tytos. Tywin would have be old enough to get the full force when things really started to deteriorate.

Even more importantly, since Tywin was not Tytos himself, he would have heard how people laughed and joked behind his father's back, and his peers would have also have made fun of him because of his weak-willed father.

I really believe by the time Tywin took charge, the West was so accustomed to Tytos misrule, that they simply did not take Tywin seriously. They would have believed that his threats were empty, too. After all, how strong willed could a son of such a father be. There could have been signs, I guess, but the Red Lion either ignored them or failed to recognize them.

If Tywin's youth was really a constant fight to be taken seriously as a man/leader/lord, then it's really no surprise that he cannot back down later on under any circumstances, since he considers any such a sign of weakness to be exploited by the other party. Even when he is not actually dealing with enemies or people who are challenging him.

I thoroughly agree with this. I think some others started to realize that Tywin was not his father's son and this is why, at the end, Roger Reyne had much less support that might've been expected (and Lady Tarbeck just before).

[History of Westeros]

More emergency exits means more entrances to guard against attackers. I am sure that Reynes had more than one exit, but it is not impossible that Lannisters found and sealed or guarded all of them.

Yes, we're told there were only 3 entrances and that Tywin blocked them all. There are also tales of screams coming from within the mines when the water started filling things up.

Surely there's some wealth down there. Now it all belongs to Ser Rolph Spicer, if he can recover it.

[History of Westeros]

A cave is safe and comfortable if it´s dry and above water table, right?

Water table is not quite constant naturally - it fluctuates with rains of Castamere. Castamere also has a natural lake and used to have it, otherwise it would not have been named after the mere.

So, if the rock under Castamere was permeable then Reynes could not have mined beneath the water table - water would have seeped in.

If the rock was not very permeable then Reynes could have mined below water table and bailed/pumped out the small amount of water that did seep in - but then they also needed thresholds high enough to keep waters of Castamere out, because it would have been a lot of work to pump out the mines every time Castamere flooded over the thresholds. Also if there were chambers that flooded during natural high floods but naturally drained at low water, then Reynes could have mined gold from these chambers when the waters were low, but evacuated them at each flood. But these chambers would then not have been good to furnish for living.

So, I imagine that Castamere castle was on a relatively low rise of ground. The hilltop and also the chambers for living would have been above normal floods, but nowhere as lofty as Casterly Rock. Thus no chambers in upper parts of a high mountain, which Tywin would have been unable to flood.

It might have been possible that upper parts of a hill did not contain gold, so no reason to mine them, but even then it would have been logical to build surface houses on top of the hill, and underground shortcut entrance between mine and upper castle. This is why I assume the rise was not high.

Now, there was Castamere lake. If Tywin simply dammed the river downstream from the lake, then the river water would have collected in the sizable area of the lake. It would then have risen slowly, and the Reynes would have spent long time in their living rooms first ankle deep in water then in knee deep... it would have taken time for the ordinary flow of the river to fill lake Castamere over their heads and ceilings. Reynes would have had time to try to break out by existing and newly cut exits.

But my advice to Tywin: dam the river above the lake. The water would then collect in the new reservoir, to a level above the Castamere mines - while the level of Castamere would actually fall, but not below the natural outlet level. So the Reynes would not be warned. Then build the second dam at the outlet of Castamere. Castamere would start rising, but only slowly without the inflow of the main river (still blocked by the upper dam) so it would not yet the mines and tip off the Reynes.

And when the lower dam is ready, breach the upper dam. The water levels between upper reservoir and Castamere would suddenly equalize and the mines would be rapidly flooded, before Reynes can sally.

Could it have been what Tywin did?

Thanks for this explanation, we'll surely use it.

[Tha Shiznit]

George _RR_Martin:

If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man.

I thought that the First Men houses have short simple names. House Brax, Jast, Drox, and Marbrand haver fairly short descriptive names, but are listed has Andal in origin. So I guess Martin has change the origin and the naming of First men Houses, like house Lannister from being an Andal house to First Man. Does that mean the same for House Tyrell or Arryn. The Lannister themselves were successful of expanding and annexing the other kingdom in the Westerlands. And were quite skilled in repealing the Andal invaders, such has taking their sons has hostages and marrying their daughters. Tyrion III and Gerold II were probably the last of house Lannister worship the Old Gods and convert to the Seven.

The Andal invasion doesn’t seem entirely bad, most married the daughters of the first men and vice versa. Though it is unfortunate in became of the children of the forest. The Andal invasion was more like a migration, much like the migration period in Europe from late antiquity to the early middle ages.

The history of the other houses of the Westerlands is quite interesting of itself. House Banefort apparently had ancestor that was a skinchanger or greenseer of some kind. And was founded by some mysterious Hooded Man, hence the sigil.

[History of Westeros]

The history of the other houses of the Westerlands is quite interesting of itself. House Banefort apparently had ancestor that was a skinchanger or greenseer of some kind. And was founded by some mysterious Hooded Man, hence the sigil.

He was said to be a necromancer, in fact. No mention of greensight or skinchanging, but there was mention of thralls.

[Tha Shiznit]

He was said to be a necromancer, in fact. No mention of greensight or skinchanging, but there was mention of thralls.

I was merely assuming, since the death of king Lorien son at the hand of his pet lions sounded quite like a second life for Morgon Banfort. Though Morgon being a necromancer is still very interesting too.

[History of Westeros]

I was merely assuming, since the death of king Lorien son at the hand of his pet lions sounded quite like a second life for Morgon Banfort. Though Morgon being a necromancer is still very interesting too.

That's a cool idea, definitely hadn't thought of that. One lion leading the others like Nymeria leads her pack, hah.

[Elkrider]

I thought that the First Men houses have short simple names. House Brax, Jast, Drox, and Marbrand haver fairly short descriptive names, but are listed has Andal in origin. So I guess Martin has change the origin and the naming of First men Houses, like house Lannister from being an Andal house to First Man. Does that mean the same for House Tyrell or Arryn. The Lannister themselves were successful of expanding and annexing the other kingdom in the Westerlands. And were quite skilled in repealing the Andal invaders, such has taking their sons has hostages and marrying their daughters. Tyrion III and Gerold II were probably the last of house Lannister worship the Old Gods and convert to the Seven.

The Andal invasion doesn’t seem entirely bad, most married the daughters of the first men and vice versa. Though it is unfortunate in became of the children of the forest. The Andal invasion was more like a migration, much like the migration period in Europe from late antiquity to the early middle ages.

The history of the other houses of the Westerlands is quite interesting of itself. House Banefort apparently had ancestor that was a skinchanger or greenseer of some kind. And was founded by some mysterious Hooded Man, hence the sigil.

That would be an interesting game, to go and guess what Houses had what ancestry based on the names. I'd disagree that Brax, Jast, and Drox sound particularly First Men, though. They are short, yes, but not descriptive, because the words don't actually mean anything. I would have guessed Valyrian, actually, except it doesn't make any sense. Those Xs are reminiscent of some of the dragon names, like Meraxes, Syrax, etc.

I presume that tWoIaF will list the origin of the main Houses in the other regions too. Once it comes out, it would be interesting to go through all the regions and see if GRRM has really changed the pattern or if it mostly holds true.

Agree with you about the Andal migration. And this excerpt has made the Westerlands about 85% more interesting now. We never really got its detailed history before.

[Veltigar]

Wasn't it confirmed in one of the samples of TWOIAF that Westeros was still largely FM, only they were Andalized because those Andal invaders were succesful in taking lordships?

[Dofs]

I thought that the First Men houses have short simple names. House Brax, Jast, Drox, and Marbrand haver fairly short descriptive names, but are listed has Andal in origin. So I guess Martin has change the origin and the naming of First men Houses, like house Lannister from being an Andal house to First Man. Does that mean the same for House Tyrell or Arryn. The Lannister themselves were successful of expanding and annexing the other kingdom in the Westerlands. And were quite skilled in repealing the Andal invaders, such has taking their sons has hostages and marrying their daughters. Tyrion III and Gerold II were probably the last of house Lannister worship the Old Gods and convert to the Seven.

The Andal invasion doesn’t seem entirely bad, most married the daughters of the first men and vice versa. Though it is unfortunate in became of the children of the forest. The Andal invasion was more like a migration, much like the migration period in Europe from late antiquity to the early middle ages.

The history of the other houses of the Westerlands is quite interesting of itself. House Banefort apparently had ancestor that was a skinchanger or greenseer of some kind. And was founded by some mysterious Hooded Man, hence the sigil.

There was this bit:

The first Andals to arrive saw a bloody end by King Tybolt Thunderbolt.

So Andal migration was not much peaceful really but I guess that depends on the region. Lannisters successfully repelled all Andal invasions and then just decided to merry them all because they got tired to repel them all the time. It was win-win situations for both Westermen and Andals. Other regions may have not been so fortunate as I believe House Arryn is fully an Andal house founded by some legendary Andal hero. So they really overthrew First Men kings there and I guess by force.

Pretty amusing that Lannisters are now a confirmed First Men house. I wonder why George had changed his mind about them. Although them being an Andal house with a family name based on the legendary First Men hero did not make much sense I guess.

[Lord Annaly]

Pretty amusing that Lannisters are now a confirmed First Men house. I wonder why George had changed his mind about them. Although them being an Andal house with a family name based on the legendary First Men hero did not make much sense I guess.

House Lannister is not confirmed as a First Men House, it is still classed as an Andal House because it was founded by an Andal, Lann the Clever. But like nearly all Houses in Westeros it has both First Men and Andal blood.

Whether Lann the Clever was Andal or not matters very little as later his descendants married Andals and became Andal in everyway.

It would be hard to class any House as purely one or the other.

The majority of Houses (south of the Neck at least) are classed as Andal because they were either (reputedly) founded by an Andal or were taken over by Andal by way of marriage.

Most of the southron Houses are classed as Andal because they have assumed the traditions, customs and beliefs of Andal.

House Baratheon is the inheritor of First Men blood via House Durrandon which became an Andal House and later as House Baratheon is the blood of First Men, Andal and Valyrian. But is Andal in every way now.

People should not be getting all exited that House Lannister can now be called a First Men House... it is been a mix blood House just as every other House is.

But it is Andal is foundation, Name, tradition, custom and beliefs. It is Andal.

[Ran]

Lann the Clever was a First Man. But as the appendices say, the Andal adventurers who founded the house wed themselves to First Men women who claimed descent from Lann and the past rulers of the Rock.

[Lord Annaly]

Lann the Clever was a First Man. But as the appendices say, the Andal adventurers who founded the house wed themselves to First Men women who claimed descent from Lann and the past rulers of the Rock.

Cheers, (great that an Age of Heros myth is debunked, so much of the AoH is doubtfull) so my point still stands, House Lannister is as much an Andal House as it is a First Men, if not even more Andal blood because of generational intermarriage.

[Dofs]

House Lannister is not confirmed as a First Men House, it is still classed as an Andal House because it was founded by an Andal, Lann the Clever. But like nearly all Houses in Westeros it has both First Men and Andal blood.

Whether Lann the Clever was Andal or not matters very little as later his descendants married Andals and became Andal in everyway.

It would be hard to class any House as purely one or the other.

The majority of Houses (south of the Neck at least) are classed as Andal because they were either (reputedly) founded by an Andal or were taken over by Andal by way of marriage.

Most of the southron Houses are classed as Andal because they have assumed the traditions, customs and beliefs of Andal.

House Baratheon is the inheritor of First Men blood via House Durrandon which became an Andal House and later as House Baratheon is the blood of First Men, Andal and Valyrian. But is Andal in every way now.

People should not be getting all exited that House Lannister can now be called a First Men House... it is been a mix blood House just as every other House is.

But it is Andal is foundation, Name, tradition, custom and beliefs. It is Andal.

Lann the Clever was a First Man. But as the appendices say, the Andal adventurers who founded the house wed themselves to First Men women who claimed descent from Lann and the past rulers of the Rock.

Well, apparently the information in the appendixes is outdated unless people in the Westerlands readings got it wrong. Now apparently it is not Andals who married Lann's female descendants and established a new house and dynasty, but its Lannister kings who married Andal women, and let Andals settle in Westerlands to make them their friends. So their rule was uninterrupted throughout the Andal invasion and Lanisters are Lann's descendants directly, and not by female line thus making them by origin and foundation a First Men house. Obviously there now a lot of Andal blood in them and they follow the Seven and generally the traditions of the Andals like knighthood and so on but all houses south of the Neck do that and we still claim that House Dayne, for example, is a First Men house.

[AzureOwl]

Well, apparently the information in the appendixes is outdated unless people in the Westerlands readings got it wrong. Now apparently it is not Andals who married Lann's female descendants and established a new house and dynasty, but its Lannister kings who married Andal women, and let Andals settle in Westerlands to make them their friends. So their rule was uninterrupted throughout the Andal invasion and Lanisters are Lann's descendants directly, and not by female line thus making them by origin and foundation a First Men house. Obviously there now a lot of Andal blood in them and they follow the Seven and generally the traditions of the Andals like knighthood and so on but all houses south of the Neck do that and we still claim that House Dayne, for example, is a First Men house.

Remember that the new book is an in-universe source.

If the official party line is that House Lannister has existed in its current form since Lann the Clever only to later intermarry with Andals, then I doubt maester Yandel is going to go on record saying that the King’s father-in-law’s ancestors were mere Andal adventurers that might’ve married First Men women that claimed descent from Lann the Clever.

The appendix may tell the truth, but Yandel has to write down the official Lannister version that House Lannister has ruled the Westerlands since the Age of Heroes. From the little we’ve seen, Yandel doesn’t strike as the type to make waves. ;)

[RumHam]

it is been a mix blood House just as every other House is.

Every other house south of the Neck, anyway.

[Jaak]

Remember that the new book is an in-universe source.

If the official party line is that House Lannister has existed in its current form since Lann the Clever only to later intermarry with Andals, then I doubt maester Yandel is going to go on record saying that the King’s father-in-law’s ancestors were mere Andal adventurers that might’ve married First Men women that claimed descent from Lann the Clever.

The appendix may tell the truth, but Yandel has to write down the official Lannister version that House Lannister has ruled the Westerlands since the Age of Heroes. From the little we’ve seen, Yandel doesn’t strike as the type to make waves. ;)

Westeros had multiple Andal kings and royal lines. Riverlands where the last First Men kings, Mudds of "Oldstones" did go down fighting are an ancient neighbour of Westerlands. Reach had Gardeners and then Tyrells, and the Hightowers of Oldtown with their literary tradition. Stormlands had Durrandons, and Arryns of Vale never had a border with Lannisters but do have a tradition of claiming unbroken descent from the first Andal conquerors.

What do they have to tell about Lannisters?

[Lord Varys]

The claim that Lann was supposed to an Andal adventurer, was always at odds with the broad strokes of Westerosi history. He is a character from the Age of Heroes, which, according to common belief, occurred thousands of years before the Andal Invasion, even before the Long Night.

But it would make to sense to try claim that Lann may have been an Andal if 1. the blond hair is common among the Andals, and 2. the Andal dominated high culture of southern Westeros tried to make Andals appear more important/influential etc. than they were originally in history.

[HexMachina]

Every other house south of the Neck, anyway.

Or North of the Neck, since the Manderlys married into the North and are presumably Andals :)

[RumHam]

Or North of the Neck, since the Manderlys married into the North and are presumably Andals :)

Well I don't mean to suggest that there's no Andal blood up there, but far less, generally speaking. Or do you have some reason to believe the Manderlys really spread out and married into most of the northern houses?