(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

[Jaak]

Japanese imperial family has done quite well for 2000 year without any surname.

[-Ghost-]

Is there still gold in the mines that Tywin flooded and sealed up?

[HexMachina]

Is there still gold in the mines that Tywin flooded and sealed up?

Well, to quote myself:

About Castamere, I think I have another indicator it isnt still flooded:

"...while the Greatjon has seized the gold mines at Castamere, Nunn's Deep and the Pendric Hills." Ser Wendel laughed. "Nothing's more like to bring a Lannister running than a threat to his gold."

I can't see the Greatjon seizing a flooded ruin.of a mine somehow

So I think yes there is

ETA: and flooding wouldn't remove the gold anyway so...

[Lion of the West]

Is there still gold in the mines that Tywin flooded and sealed up?

Most likely, yes.

[Dofs]

I am not sure when the Andals first started and ceased arriving, but I don't think it is at all impossible that the First Men (including those that became the Starks) did not have concepts of houses or surnames for however many thousands of years before the Andals came to Westeros.

I am not asserting clans, tribes, whatever of First Men did not have names for their clans, tribes, whatever before that. I am just skeptical that they had houses and surnames in any meaningful sense before that. I don't deny that First Men could have had surnames before the Andals, this is just my theory.

I think First Men were more along the lines of "_____ son of _____" and "_____ ancestor of _____ (legendary figure)" and "_____ of the _____ (clan name)" before the Andals came.

Even having never been conquered by the Andals or adopted the Seven, the North has adopted what is likely a mostly Andal language in vocabulary if not grammar, Andal writing where they previously had occasional runes, what is likely mostly Andal weaponry, armor, warfare, use of Maesters, and even before the Andals came some amount of them had already adopted the gods of the Children of the Forest.

That's a stretch. I think the general history layout has to be true for practical purposes. I know that the George has said that he tries to write history ambiguous, from the point of view of in-universe sources and that some of the believed history may not be true. But what you are implying is taking it too far. I doubt George that, knowing the true history, would publish completely different one. That would be pretty useless.

[Fat Mac]

I think gold still being in Castamere 100% proves that the Lannisters still have a lot of wealth themselves (the only thing said contrary was a TV thing, so I don't know how many book readers were in doubt about this). If the Lannisters truly ran out of gold, Tywin would probably open up Castamere.

[Bael's Bastard]

That's a stretch. I think the general history layout has to be true for practical purposes. I know that the George has said that he tries to write history ambiguous, from the point of view of in-universe sources and that some of the believed history may not be true. But what you are implying is taking it too far. I doubt George that, knowing the true history, would publish completely different one. That would be pretty useless.

In what way am I taking it too far? I am trying to go by what has been provided without taking every word as historical truth. It has been said in the past that First Men names are one or two syllables, often descriptive. If that is true, names like Lannister, Casterly, and Westerling appear to be out of place in a pre-Andal Westeros, even if they did have houses and surnames before the Andals. And two of them appear to be based on names of legendary First Men founders, Lann and Caster (father of a founder). So I suggest that the Lannister and Casterly are Andalizations of First Men first names into surnames and house concepts that did not exist in pre-Andal times, even if tribes or clans descended (or believing themselves to be) from those legendary figures go back thousands or hundreds or years before the Andals. I acknowledge that First Man surnames and houses could pre-date the Andals. I just think they probably didn't.

[Free Northman Reborn]

In what way am I taking it too far? I am trying to go by what has been provided without taking every word as historical truth. It has been said in the past that First Men names are one or two syllables, often descriptive. If that is true, names like Lannister, Casterly, and Westerling appear to be out of place in a pre-Andal Westeros, even if they did have houses and surnames before the Andals. And two of them appear to be based on names of legendary First Men founders, Lann and Caster (father of a founder). So I suggest that the Lannister and Casterly are Andalizations of First Men first names into surnames and house concepts that did not exist in pre-Andal times, even if tribes or clans descended (or believing themselves to be) from those legendary figures go back thousands or hundreds or years before the Andals. I acknowledge that First Man surnames and houses could pre-date the Andals. I just think they probably didn't.

Why not just assume that they are Andalized versions of First Man surnames?

We know for a fact that the Northern Houses have First Man surnames, and most of them have existed for 8000 years or more.

It is obvious that the First Men had surnmames. Just because southron Houses like the Lannisters were bastardized by later Andal influences doesn't imply that there were no surnames before they came. Of course there were.

[Jaak]

Chances are that there is stuff more valuable - because rarer - than gold in flooded Castamere mine.

Tarbecks used to be minor lords until Gerold Lannister married Ellyn Reyne to them. So no ancient wealth there.

But Reynes were almost as rich as Lannisters AND older than Lannisters (datning back to when Casterlies mined Casterly Rock).

Well, Tywin failed in 3 attempts to buy Valyrian swords. Yet since there were 200 swords in Seven Kingdoms, you would expect 30 Valyrian swords around Westerlands. Or more, because it was a rich mining region.

Tywin had no qualms to confiscate Ice.

Wouldn´t he have jumped at a chance to confiscate Tarbeck and Reyne ancestral Valyrian swords?

So the guess: Tarbecks didn´t have any because they were a minor house before Ellyn. And Reyne ancestral Valyrian sword rests in the flooded mine of Castamere on the drowned corpse of lord Roger Reyne.

[Veltigar]

Chances are that there is stuff more valuable - because rarer - than gold in flooded Castamere mine.

Tarbecks used to be minor lords until Gerold Lannister married Ellyn Reyne to them. So no ancient wealth there.

But Reynes were almost as rich as Lannisters AND older than Lannisters (datning back to when Casterlies mined Casterly Rock).

Well, Tywin failed in 3 attempts to buy Valyrian swords. Yet since there were 200 swords in Seven Kingdoms, you would expect 30 Valyrian swords around Westerlands. Or more, because it was a rich mining region.

Tywin had no qualms to confiscate Ice.

Wouldn´t he have jumped at a chance to confiscate Tarbeck and Reyne ancestral Valyrian swords?

So the guess: Tarbecks didn´t have any because they were a minor house before Ellyn. And Reyne ancestral Valyrian sword rests in the flooded mine of Castamere on the drowned corpse of lord Roger Reyne.

The Reynes Valyrian Steel sword was probably stolen by Hilmar Drumm. It's no coincidence that their (stolen) Valyrian steel sword is called Red Rain ;)

[The Sleeper]

Chances are that there is stuff more valuable - because rarer - than gold in flooded Castamere mine.

Tarbecks used to be minor lords until Gerold Lannister married Ellyn Reyne to them. So no ancient wealth there.

But Reynes were almost as rich as Lannisters AND older than Lannisters (datning back to when Casterlies mined Casterly Rock).

Well, Tywin failed in 3 attempts to buy Valyrian swords. Yet since there were 200 swords in Seven Kingdoms, you would expect 30 Valyrian swords around Westerlands. Or more, because it was a rich mining region.

Tywin had no qualms to confiscate Ice.

Wouldn´t he have jumped at a chance to confiscate Tarbeck and Reyne ancestral Valyrian swords?

So the guess: Tarbecks didn´t have any because they were a minor house before Ellyn. And Reyne ancestral Valyrian sword rests in the flooded mine of Castamere on the drowned corpse of lord Roger Reyne.

I think the Reynes valyrian sword is Red Rain currently owned by Dunstan Drum of Great Wyk(?), and ancestor of whose took it from a Reyne apparently armed only with a driftwood cudgel.

ETA ninja'd

[Maia]

Yea, if there had been a Valyrian sword in Castamere mines, I am sure that Tywin would have drained them and retrieved it. Not only did he lust after a Valyrian blade, but the Reyne sword specifically would have had a huge symbolic value.

Of course, Lannisters in general and Tywin in particular not being able to obtain another Valyrian sword during the centuries after the death of Tommen II never made sense in the first place. I mean, _sellswords_ sometimes have Valyrian weapons in Essos, so it doesn't seem believable that none of them would have agreed to sell one for a fortune and/or lands in more than 300 years.

Ditto some Westerosi lords falling on hard times. Heck, Jorah should have been tempted to do so, as it would have solved all his monetary problems.

Oh, well...

[Bael's Bastard]

Why not just assume that they are Andalized versions of First Man surnames?

We know for a fact that the Northern Houses have First Man surnames, and most of them have existed for 8000 years or more.

It is obvious that the First Men had surnmames. Just because southron Houses like the Lannisters were bastardized by later Andal influences doesn't imply that there were no surnames before they came. Of course there were.

I don't assume that they are Andalized versions of First Men surnames because all indications are that Lann and Caster are first names of legendary First Men, and the other surnames I can think of that seem to use first names of legendary First Men in surnames (Durrandon, Gardener?) seem to fit the Andal template.

Meanwhile, I don't see First Men surnames including first names of legendary First Men (House Stark, not House Bran or Brandon), but then again, this is just one region, so I imagine the rest of the World Book will help.

The legendary men from the Age of Heroes tend to be known by first names and nicknames, and I don't think it is unreasonable to see association of current and extinct house surnames with them to be anachronisms.

There is much about pre-Targaryen and pre-Andal history that we absolutely do not know for a fact. We know some of the legends and stories set down by Andal-era septons, and the claims and legends the houses have or make about their ancestry or amount of time they have been in a place.

And while I have no doubt that lines of ancestry, clans, tribes, whatever, go back hundreds or thousands of years before the Andals, I have serious doubt that they used surnames or had houses before the Andals.

It is not difficult to see how a surname or house that only started being applied to a line 2,000 or 3,000 years ago could come to be associated with ancestors of the same line said to have lived 4,000 or 8,000 years ago.

[jarl the climber]

One interesting thing is that Tywin made the surviving Tarbeck women become Silent Sisters. There is an old theory that some of the Silent SIsters might have had a grudge against Tywin and might have purposely botched the job on his corpse, which led to the great stench and odd decomposition that so many have commented on and made theories about.

[-Ghost-]

I wonder why Tywin never drained the mines and rebuilt Castamere after some time and put a Lannister there. Kevan or one of the other branch of Lannisters. Maybe he really likes the song and it wouldn't make sense anymore if there was someone there to hear.

[RumHam]

I wonder why Tywin never drained the mines and rebuilt Castamere after some time and put a Lannister there. Kevan or one of the other branch of Lannisters. Maybe he really likes the song and it wouldn't make sense anymore if there was someone there to hear.

Does the song even make sense now? How can the rains fall on their halls when they are predominately underground?

[Ran]

Maester Yandel would point out that the singers almost never make sense, and you would be wise to not take your history lessons from them.

[Mrs_Darcy]

One interesting thing is that Tywin made the surviving Tarbeck women become Silent Sisters. There is an old theory that some of the Silent SIsters might have had a grudge against Tywin and might have purposely botched the job on his corpse, which led to the great stench and odd decomposition that so many have commented on and made theories about.

That is a great theory!

[Lion of the West]

One interesting thing is that Tywin made the surviving Tarbeck women become Silent Sisters. There is an old theory that some of the Silent SIsters might have had a grudge against Tywin and might have purposely botched the job on his corpse, which led to the great stench and odd decomposition that so many have commented on and made theories about.

I don't think that's impossible at all.

[Lord Varys]

Well, the whole 'rain thing' did get an entirely new meaning with the whole flooding thing. 'Not a soul to hear' now, yes, but I guess the Reynes did hear 'the rain' for quite some time before they drowned...