(BOOK SPOILERS) Discussing Sansa XI: Lies and Arbor Gold

[tosteel]

I believe Sansa is sticking with LF because just like Arya, she wants revenge on all who wronged her family, and is only now comprehending that it might be possible after all. . But she needs to do it with subtlety and intrigue and manipulation, and who better to teach her that than the master himself?

I believe in the end that Sansa will be directly responsible for the end of Cersei, and once she knows LF's part in her father's death, LF himself. Maybe even Meryn "f-ing" Trant. "What do we do to those who hurt the ones we love?"

Minor nitpick here: for a wimpy, spoiled, teat-suckling mama's boy, Robin didn't appear too broken up about mommy taking a flying leap.

Oh gosh... If Sansa is responsible for Cersei's end, I wonder how that will play with the valonqar prophecy... I really hope it's not some sort of Sansa x Tyrion get together :x

[1234567]

Oh gosh... If Sansa is responsible for Cersei's end, I wonder how that will play with the valonqar prophecy... I really hope it's not some sort of Sansa x Tyrion get together :x

I really hoped she would not get stick with the bitter narsissist but to be honest after her reveal it is looking more likely.

Did anyone see if she is still wearing the wedding ring with the new goth attire?

[juanml82]

I don't know about Cersei. Borrowing from the phrase of bot seeing the forest for the tree, I think Arya is training to take down trees. Sansa, instead, can get in a position where she can burn the entire forest down

[Newstar]

I really hoped she would not get stick with the bitter narsissist but to be honest after her reveal it is looking more likely.

Did anyone see if she is still wearing the wedding ring with the new goth attire?

She is not. She's wearing a fancy new ring on the index finger of her right hand, but it's a different ring.

It seems odd that Sansa's ring--which was never actually identified as a wedding ring--was used to mark the delineation between "Sansa Stark" and "Alayne" in this episode, much like her dress. A better choice would have been that dragonfly necklace, since Sansa was wearing it way back in Season 1 and she's worn it at various points since, (as well as dragonflies being a recurring motif in Sansa's outfits), but of course once they swapped out the PW hairnet for a necklace, TV Sansa couldn't exactly take the dragonfly necklace with her.

That last scene almost seemed like a finale-type scene to tie off Sansa's arc for this season and set up the next, with Littlefinger talking about leaving the Vale and Sansa unveiling herself in full Dark Alayne drag. I'd been assuming we'd get a 4x10 scene for Sansa's arc along with all the other major characters, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe just a quick scene with LF, Sansa and Sweetrobin setting off for the Vale tour?

[The King Beyond The Wall]

Oh gosh... If Sansa is responsible for Cersei's end, I wonder how that will play with the valonqar prophecy... I really hope it's not some sort of Sansa x Tyrion get together :x

You could go with Sansa orders Petyr to kill Cercei, Valonqar = Little 'Brother' = Little Finger... Catalyn used to call him 'little brother'...He was like a 'little brother' to Catalyn.

[MR92]

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[voodooqueen126]

You could go with Sansa orders Petyr to kill Cercei, Valonqar = Little 'Brother' = Little Finger... Catalyn used to call him 'little brother'...He was like a 'little brother' to Catalyn.

Or with the idea that Valyrian was a gender neutral language, so that valonqar could refer to a younger sibling of either sex. Sansa is after all, Robb's younger sibling

Although I am of the opinion that Sansa does end up with Tyrion. Which will be tragic for her.

[Timett sonof Timett is God]

I don't know about Cersei. Borrowing from the phrase of bot seeing the forest for the tree, I think Arya is training to take down trees. Sansa, instead, can get in a position where she can burn the entire forest down

yep sort of how I felt about Dany, at first she was a helpless child then she's in charge of multiple armies looking like the most powerful challenger to the throne.

[1234567]

Although I am of the opinion that Sansa does end up with Tyrion. Which will be tragic for her.

We can always hope he dies young or gets Greyscale so can't touch her.

Another thought, I wonder if the controversial chapter is her taking credit for poisoning Joff? A sort of Lucrezia Borgia comparison would be interesting especially as she got out of her marriage due to non-consummation and despite her reputation probably never poisoned anyone (still hoping she is not stuck being a Lannister).

[Pod The Impaler]

Speechless. Sansa reveals herself to the Lord Declarants. Uncharted territory entered now. Seven hells I don't know how to react. And now she's Brown/Black haired with a Dark Phoenix/ Katniss/ Gothic Vixen look ? This is just too much to deal with. I'm quite concerned about the many possible implications of what we've seen.

Yeah, I am stunned.

This changes ... well, everything. The Alayne "persona" is basically vaporized. The Lords Declarant / Baelish tension is annihilated.

I mean, basically that's the whole of her AFFC storyline and it now is one big moot point.

(And that stings, because I've liked her acting this season.)

[The King Beyond The Wall]

We can always hope he dies young or gets Greyscale so can't touch her.

Another thought, I wonder if the controversial chapter is her taking credit for poisoning Joff? A sort of Lucrezia Borgia comparison would be interesting especially as she got out of her marriage due to non-consummation and despite her reputation probably never poisoned anyone (still hoping she is not stuck being a Lannister).

I think this was the controversial chapter. It's in this episode... It's hinted at, that's how I saw it but my friend disagrees.

Basically the scene when Sansa tells Petyr, "I know what you want" and then the scene skips, I believe she gave him what he wants... Which is "HER". She gave herself to him, you can see it from the way she's looking at him in the next scene and the way he's looking at her too... My friend says I'm just a sick horny **** but yeah that's the shocking 'chapter' I believe.

[1234567]

Had the five year gap been in place the tension with the Vale Lords would have been mainly resolved anyway. Building up consistent characterization is not a strong point if the show so the turn around of Sansa's character is done in one scene. It also depends how much filler D&D decide to add next year. Although a Vale tour does suggest she could bump into Sandor if he remains alive.

[Emperoreddy]

Oh I am an idiot. The black dress, the feathers, the dark hair. It is Sansa fully adopting the persona of LF's niece. Feathers for the Mockingbird cigil, the darker color to match his darker clothes completely separate from the innocent Sansa. It also shows her fully becoming the "student" of LF.

[Envie]

I just want to interject (I bowed out of the Sansa debates a couple of episodes back) ... for a moment:

Did anyone else get the weird impression for just one brief moment, that this feathered outfit she saunters down the stairs in, the deceptive play of color change and attitude change - it was JUST like The Hunger Games, hahaha... Sansa is Katniss in her "Mockingjay" dress!

I'm sorry I'm sorry. I just had to do it. :ack:

[Newstar]

Yeah, I am stunned.

This changes ... well, everything. The Alayne "persona" is basically vaporized. The Lords Declarant / Baelish tension is annihilated.

I mean, basically that's the whole of her AFFC storyline and it now is one big moot point.

(And that stings, because I've liked her acting this season.)

Well, not "vaporized": Alayne will still exist for those not in the know (those three lords/ladies of the Vale have promised to keep her secret), thus the dyed hair. However, the dramatic tension of "Alayne" with reference to the Lords Declarant--will they find out her identity?--has indeed been wiped out, as has any tension between the Lords Declarant and Petyr Baelish, at least for the moment.

I agree that D&D have essentially wiped out Sansa's AFFC storyline, although I guess they could incorporate bits and pieces later on (Sansa mothering Sweetrobin, Littlefinger starting to poison Sweetrobin, etc.), not to mention changed the power dynamic between Sansa and LF completely, but I'm not really bothered by this. I think it's kind of hilarious that D&D decided to throw out Sansa's entire AFFC arc, like "Yeah, that's not happening, can't be bothered with that shit." Also, the fact that they're choosing to gloss over it could mean that there's lots of juicy material down the line for Sansa and they're trying to get to it as quickly as possible, and I am 100% in favour of that. If they are sticking to this seven-season plan, then they are probably going to try and frontload as much story as possible, and my hope is that if D&D are speeding through Sansa's AFFC arc, that means there must be a lot going on in Sansa's chapters post-ADWD.

[Hippocras]

My thoughts:

1. Yes, Sansa knows LF wants her and is playing it. LF implies she doesn't know what he wants, but clearly he does want Sansa, so he is vulnerable there even if Sansa doesn't know what he wants, otherwise, in the game - ie his intended power goals.

2. Sansa was modifying Lysa's dress when LF walked in to talk with her. She was adding "wings" to it. The Eagle is the sigil of House Arryn, and I am suspecting the goal is to make people mentally associate her with authority in the Vale and the Arryns.

3. She mentioned while revealing her identity to the Lords Declarant that the Lannisters have spies everywhere. I think everyone involved knows she needs to still play the part of Alayne. Her hair and new, regal, Arrynesque costume is for the part of Alayne - which is different than in the books. In the show Alayne is LF's niece, not a bastard, and LF is in charge in the Vale as Robert's guardian. Alayne will be betrothed to Robert Arryn, so her dress was modified to invoke House Arryn.

4. The Vale is officially in mourning for Lysa. That is why she was wearing black. So was LF you might have noticed. It is not about looking evil, but looking like she was in mourning. A mourning dress with Eagle wings. Brilliant.

[Pod The Impaler]

Well, not "vaporized": Alayne will still exist for those not in the know (those three lords/ladies of the Vale have promised to keep her secret), thus the dyed hair. However, the dramatic tension of "Alayne" with reference to the Lords Declarant--will they find out her identity?--has indeed been wiped out, as has any tension between the Lords Declarant and Petyr Baelish, at least for the moment.

I agree that D&D have essentially wiped out Sansa's AFFC storyline, although I guess they could incorporate bits and pieces later on (Sansa mothering Sweetrobin, Littlefinger starting to poison Sweetrobin, etc.), not to mention changed the power dynamic between Sansa and LF completely, but I'm not really bothered by this. I think it's kind of hilarious that D&D decided to throw out Sansa's entire AFFC arc, like "Yeah, that's not happening, can't be bothered with that shit." Also, the fact that they're choosing to gloss over it could mean that there's lots of juicy material down the line for Sansa and they're trying to get to it as quickly as possible, and I am 100% in favour of that. If they are sticking to this seven-season plan, then they are probably going to try and frontload as much story as possible, and my hope is that if D&D are speeding through Sansa's AFFC arc, that means there must be a lot going on in Sansa's chapters post-ADWD.

Well, I can't see any particular rational reason why the Lords Declarant needed to know that Sansa was Sansa. The most wanted criminal in Westeros is staying at the Eyrie, and they just assume that loose lips won;t sink ships? That is not LF's style, nor should Sansa be that cavalier about her own safety.

I understand that the show has nipped a bit into Sansa's AFFC story with having the Vale lords there at all, but remember that Sansa has zero time in ADWD, so if they burn through her AFFC stuff too fast, or negate it, what have they got left? (One episode of her coming down the mountain with Robin, at most?)

[Pod The Impaler]

I just want to interject (I bowed out of the Sansa debates a couple of episodes back) ... for a moment:

Did anyone else get the weird impression for just one brief moment, that this feathered outfit she saunters down the stairs in, the deceptive play of color change and attitude change - it was JUST like The Hunger Games, hahaha... Sansa is Katniss in her "Mockingjay" dress!

Perhaps this was the show doing a friendly shout-out to the HG gang.

[Hippocras]

my post is already buried so I will repeat - the wings were to evoke House Arryn, added to a black mourning dress. It was a clever move to have everyone who sees "Alayne" associate her with authority in the Vale.

[igrewupinKL]

Sansa is playing LF and they are making it seem that LF is falling for it...I don't know what i feel about it. Book LF would not fall for that or be reliant on Sansa but tv!LF i guess would.

I don't believe Sansa 'gave herself' to LF. She is making it seem like she wants him