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Bringer of Rain

[BOOK SPOILERS] Fate of Jojen Reed

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As far as I'm concerned, this puts the crazy Jojen paste theory to rest.

Also, I think we've reached the part where the show has already overtaken the books. We know Jojen will die soon in TWoW.

You put too much belief in TV-series and D&W not screwing book up and down. Book!Jojen stated that he will meet his fate in Greywater Watch, so I suppose he won't die soon. And about Jojen paste, even if it's book canon D&W could simply ignore it - really does it matter for final resolution how Bran will achieve power of seeing through trees. Power he already have?

And this doesn't change anything about the paste theory (which really isn't a theory at all, always thought it was pretty obvious what had happened).

Most folk believe R+L = J, still it's only theory.

And it's much better proved than JojPas.

Can someone please explain the skeletons? What is their origin/backgorund? I just started ADWD but i don't mind spoilers at all.

They are just old, old wights.

Having Brienne meet up with Arya made perfect sense.

And not real geographical possiblity.

It wasn't even confirmed that he died in the books, and in fact when he died in the season finale I was extremely surprised because I personally believed he was still living in the books and that the paste theory was absurd.

And what does it change? Even if bookJojen will return to the Neck and die here, and we will meet Howland Reed who would make 20 pages of expositions it could be easily cut from book, and mysteries of magic, Robert Rebellion and Jon's heritage will be exposed by some estabilished character. So no GW and no Howland Reed in the TV-series friends.

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Yeah, that bothered me too. But it was the least of the problems with that entire scene, IMO. The whole thing was just ridiculous.

ETA: Wait, are you talking about the wights in the book or the skeletons featured on the show? I don't recall the exact description of the wights in that chapter of ADWD and don't have time to look it up at the moment.

I actually had to go and check: Bran describes blue eyes specifically in that scene, so if its an attempt to provoke suspicion towards the COTF, it's a false way of doing it, but that shot with the wight emerging from the snow with the Weirwood directly behind and above the wight was very deliberate and provokes thinking that the two are connected.

The way leaf shouted "come with me, or die", seemed a little forceful and harsh, and the way Jojen was specifically targeted all aroused suspicion. The scene was very specifically choreographed:

1) Jojen is attacked

2) Meera tries to save him- then more wights appear to get to Jojen

3) Meera fights them off- more wights appear.

4) Bran wargs Hodor to save them. More wights appear

5) Hodor is attacked because he is preventing the wights from killing Jojen

5) Bran is attacked - this forces Hobran to consider stopping coming to Jojen's aid and enabling the wights to kill Jojen infront of a weirwood with his blood leaking into the ground.

Result? Leaf "saves" them all and gains their trust with the exception of Jojen who was the guide, who had fulfilled his purpose, and who perhaps, needed sacrificing in some way for the benefit of the group in a non-creepy, Jojen-paste way which may have freaked out viewers. The band are more willing to accept the creepiness of Bloodraven, and they don't have a choice now because they know they will be killed if they leave. Without the wight attack, they may have got cold feet, or been less willing to trust BR.

Bran is left with a halfwit he can warg, and a girl he can...well, you get the drift. Considering Bloodraven could surely see the group arrive through the eyes of the weirwood before they travelled into the show-ring of hell, Leaf was pretty tardy coming to their aid which is crazy when you think about how close Bran appeared to come to death on BR's doorstep. I can't imagine the Great Other was able to have corpses buried in the show on Bloodraven's doorstep without BR's knowledge, or suspicion that it could be a trap, and that the best BR could do is have one COTF arrive, late, despite having eyes everywhere.

So all those bones we see Bran crawling through in the cave are in theory, if we are to trust BR, totally unrelated to the reanimated skeletons we see emerging from the ground right outside the cave.

So the absence of blue eyes, and the skeletal appearance of the wights in my mind would make me suspect the COTF more watching the show version.

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I always thought the paste was something from the tree, like ground roots or something...

This is the first time I've even heard of "Jojen paste".

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It's always been a silly theory anyway. Eating weirwood paste to aid in becoming one with a weirwood tree makes perfect sense, but no, this forum has some twisted drive to believe every single thing ever written has to be literary subterfuge with a twist right around the corner, like the fantasy version of 24.

No, its a well-thought out theory that is far from the most disturbing thing GRRM has put characters through. Its not pretty, but with things like Ramsay's hunts, the original Reek, Lollys Stokeworth, New Reek, and the Frey Pies, it barely reaches the bar GRRM set in disgusting.

here's a good thread on it. it's not just something someone thought of. http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1kxijq/spoilers_all_jojen_paste_revisited_why_it_might/

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I actually had to go and check: Bran describes blue eyes specifically in that scene, so if its an attempt to provoke suspicion towards the COTF, it's a false way of doing it, but that shot with the wight emerging from the snow with the Weirwood directly behind and above the wight was very deliberate and provokes thinking that the two are connected.

The way leaf shouted "come with me, or die", seemed a little forceful and harsh, and the way Jojen was specifically targeted all aroused suspicion. The scene was very specifically choreographed:

1) Jojen is attacked

2) Meera tries to save him- then more wights appear to get to Jojen

3) Meera fights them off- more wights appear.

4) Bran wargs Hodor to save them. More wights appear

5) Hodor is attacked because he is preventing the wights from killing Jojen

5) Bran is attacked - this forces Hobran to consider stopping coming to Jojen's aid and enabling the wights to kill Jojen infront of a weirwood with his blood leaking into the ground.

Result? Leaf "saves" them all and gains their trust with the exception of Jojen who was the guide, who had fulfilled his purpose, and who perhaps, needed sacrificing in some way for the benefit of the group in a non-creepy, Jojen-paste way which may have freaked out viewers. The band are more willing to accept the creepiness of Bloodraven, and they don't have a choice now because they know they will be killed if they leave. Without the wight attack, they may have got cold feet, or been less willing to trust BR.

Bran is left with a halfwit he can warg, and a girl he can...well, you get the drift. Considering Bloodraven could surely see the group arrive through the eyes of the weirwood before they travelled into the show-ring of hell, Leaf was pretty tardy coming to their aid which is crazy when you think about how close Bran appeared to come to death on BR's doorstep. I can't imagine the Great Other was able to have corpses buried in the show on Bloodraven's doorstep without BR's knowledge, or suspicion that it could be a trap, and that the best BR could do is have one COTF arrive, late, despite having eyes everywhere.

So all those bones we see Bran crawling through in the cave are in theory, if we are to trust BR, totally unrelated to the reanimated skeletons we see emerging from the ground right outside the cave.

So the absence of blue eyes, and the skeletal appearance of the wights in my mind would make me suspect the COTF more watching the show version.

Really nice analysis of the choreography of the scene!

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ty HBO for spoiling the Jojen is dead FOR NO REASON



man, i really hate how they spoil things book readers have pondered about for years


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always thought it was crackpot, but always thought these were thing GRRM would put to rest himself in the books .
we have a huge community that delves into the smallest of theories , some people at it for 20 years , i know this isnt how i want to find out about any of the more important theories around , imagine what they will spoil next season , i dont think i can justify watching the show if winds of winter hasnt been published by then (it wont have been)

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always thought it was crackpot, but always thought these were thing GRRM would put to rest himself in the books .

we have a huge community that delves into the smallest of theories , some people at it for 20 years , i know this isnt how i want to find out about any of the more important theories around , imagine what they will spoil next season , i dont think i can justify watching the show if winds of winter hasnt been published by then (it wont have been)

I'm with you. I will not be watching the next season until I've read WoW...who knows how long that will be... but I started reading these back in 2002 so I'm used to the long waits. I just don't like that I will have to actively avoid show spoilers once next season starts up.

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I have to agree. I might abstain from the show if the book isn't out by then, which as you said, it likely won't be.


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I like Jojenpaste, so I hope this confirms it. I mean, he was murdered by the CotF, only in a different way

Exactly my friend. Exactly.

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I'm not buying this COTF killed Jojen stuff. Jojen knew his fate and when he would die before the trip ever started. His character only existed as a tool to teach us and Bran about his skills, period. He is dead, was dying for some reason long before he even got to the cave, to me that is the bigger question, what was wrong with him before the attack?

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Basically HBO confirms nothing since the fate of secondary character may be different.


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Well I always thought Jojen didn't have much else to give to the story, so it was never going to surprise me if he died (not keen on Jojen paste though). In answer to the question, it's reasonable to assume that Jojen will die in TWoW.






I like Jojenpaste, so I hope this confirms it. I mean, he was murdered by the CotF, only in a different way




That wasn't murder. I thought Meera cut his throat and then Leaf burned his body.


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I'm not buying this COTF killed Jojen stuff. Jojen knew his fate and when he would die before the trip ever started. His character only existed as a tool to teach us and Bran about his skills, period. He is dead, was dying for some reason long before he even got to the cave, to me that is the bigger question, what was wrong with him before the attack?

I think those were the Green Dreams taking a toll on him. Meera stated in season 3 that he always gets those epileptic seizures when he has some of them. That can't be healthy. Not to mention the toll it may take on his sanity...

I'm just curious: what will happen to Meera? She is alone and away from home in that cave, sad because her brother. She might kill himself?

I think she will spend the beginning of season 5 mourning her brother before she will vanish suddenly, just as she did in the books. If Jojenpaste is true, then it will probably be Meerapaste in the show.

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Jojen's job was to get Bran to the Wierwood Throne. So he finished his job, in the books he knows he has done this and he sees his own death when he gets back to Greywater Watch so basically the books just delay his death. So yes the Jojen Paste theory is out, although it was always a long shot. The more interesting thing is that Meera Reed lives so I would assume she still has a role to play. If they were just trying to kill of people a little early then they would have killed her too.


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Jojen's job was to get Bran to the Wierwood Throne. So he finished his job, in the books he knows he has done this and he sees his own death when he gets back to Greywater Watch so basically the books just delay his death. So yes the Jojen Paste theory is out, although it was always a long shot. The more interesting thing is that Meera Reed lives so I would assume she still has a role to play. If they were just trying to kill of people a little early then they would have killed her too.

Of course. But what would be her role? I'm afraid if it's Meera Paste.

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Well, in a way, Meera could be still alive just to give Bran someone to talk next season.



He wont be talking personal maters and emotions to Bloodraven, the Children, or Hodor (they serve other purposes) but the show needs to have someone Bran can really connect with.



In the end, Jojen's role is done now with the entrance of BR, but Meera adds something to the dynamics at the cave that can really bring some needed nuances to Bran's storyline next season.


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Martin hasn't even finished writing the story you know. It's all subject to change. Of said catch up, he even said;

So this idea that everything the show portrays is some empirical representation of what's coming is the books is so shaky a ground to stand on. Martin by his own admission hasn't worked out "the details" yet. By Martin's claim they know, literally, the phrase I used "broad strokes".

Read the full interview. Here's how Benioff described it, emphasis added:

Benioff tells Windolf, "Last year we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with him [Martin] and just talk through where things are going, because we don’t know if we are going to catch up and where exactly that would be. If you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we just sat down with him and literally went through every character."

So yes, they absolutely do know the importance of every character.

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