[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick Without Repercussion #2

[Cas Stark]

I totally got what you were saying, it's all a joke pretty much. We were hoping to see GRRM's masterwork, and they are playing to the cheap seats.

But I don't think GRRM actually believes his version is not the true one, I think he cries into his pillow every night, the pillow stuffed with cash (there is some compensation).

I don't think he believes it either, I can't imagine any author really believing that an adaptation would be on equal footing with original in terms of what is 'true' in the imagined world, but nobody forced him to say it, or say with such directness and using such a specific example.

He's in the process of coming to terms with the cold hard fact that the show is going to finish HIS story, that the show has increasingly veered from adaptation to invention, so, he tells himself that the show is the show and the books are the books. It's anyone's personal interpretation of whether him basically washing his hands of the show for season 5, having been not involved in casting or writing his signature episode has more meaning than what he gave it.

[Le Cygne]

I don't know if you saw this, I was going to add, the Scarlett O'Hara thing makes no sense, that was a very faithful adaptation. The two kids they cut never mattered at all, that was the whole point. Here's the man who adapted that, he strove to be faithful, and took a very different approach, David O. Selznick (from Molly Haskell's, Frankly My Dear: Gone with the Wind Revisited):

[David O. Selznik's] other article of faith was fidelity to the source, especially when the work was as widely read and fresh in people's minds as Margaret Mitchell's Gone with the Wind. To Sidney Howard, the screenwriter, he recommended making large rather than small cuts, in that "minor changes may give us slight improvements, but there will be five or ten million readers on our heads for them, where, for the most part, they will recognize the obvious necessity of our making drastic cuts." He even urged against changes in construction, because "I have learned to avoid trying to improve on success. One never knows what chemicals have gone to make up something that has appealed to millions of people."

[Cas Stark]

I don't know if you saw this, I was going to add, the Scarlett O'Hara thing makes no sense, that was a very faithful adaptation. The two kids they cut never mattered at all, that was the whole point. Here's the man who adapted that, he strove to be faithful, and took a very different approach, David O. Selznick (from Molly Haskell's, Frankly My Dear: Gone with the Wind Revisited):

LOL. Of course it makes no sense. But, he uses this example more than once. So in his own mind, it makes sense. And, this is what sent me over the edge....

There are a million ways to answer questions about spoilers and deviations and adaptations that don't knock the adaptation for changing the source material, let alone would include a point blank statement that adaptations and source material are on equal footing, and there is no "true" answer to any of these questions.

He also uses the Maltese Falcon as an example. Sure, yes, there are lots of movie versions, some are better than others, one is a greatest of all time version. None of that changes the fact, at least to me, that only what happens in the book can be "true" for the world created. No adaptation, no matter how fantastic, can be just as true when it diverges from the source. It can still be many things, brilliant, it can capture the essence, or the theme, it can work on it's own terms in it's own medium, the list is long, but what it can't be, is equally "true" as the source.

Does anyone believe if Stephen King was asked how John Torrance died he would go on some meandering explanation that gives the movie version equal treatment with the novel? Or either, that he would give a flip answer that none of it is true because, hey, they're all make believe.

So, like I said initially, I found the author's comments insulting on a lot of levels. Just as D&D are not who I thought they were, neither is Martin.

[Annara Snow]

GRRM is right. There is no "true" or "untrue" version of a fictional story. There are just different fictional works. There is book canon and show canon, and they're never going to match 100%, not even in most faithful adaptations, as he has demonstrated with the Gone with the Wind example. One may prefer one to the other - I certainly prefer the books - but that doesn't change the fact that those are simply two fictional works and none of them is "true".

GRRM was being decent and diplomatic and encouraged people to experience both works, which is the only thing one would have expected him to say, in the first place when asked about it. Benioff, on his part, took it upon himself to praise the books as more detailed and full of in-depth info and characterization that, according to him, the show can't fully cover. It would have looked bad if GRRM had been the one to praise his books over the show, with the showrunners and cast present.

Were you really expecting him to say "the show is nowhere as good as my books! Don't watch it! My books are the real story! Forget about the show!" even if he weren't on a GoT panel? No offense, but you need to get a grip.

[Cas Stark]

GRRM is right. There is no "true" or "untrue" version of a fictional story. There are just different fictional works. There is book canon and show canon, and they're never going to match 100%, not even in most faithful adaptations, as he has demonstrated with the Gone with the Wind example. One may prefer one to the other - I certainly prefer the books - but that doesn't change the fact that those are simply two fictional works and none of them is "true".

GRRM was being decent and diplomatic and encouraged people to experience both works, which is the only thing one would have expected him to say, in the first place when asked about it. Benioff, on his part, took it upon himself to praise the books as more detailed and full of in-depth info and characterization that, according to him, the show can't fully cover. It would have looked bad if GRRM had been the one to praise his books over the show, with the showrunners and cast present.

Were you really expecting him to say "the show is nowhere as good as my books! Don't watch it! My books are the real story! Forget about the show!" even if he weren't on a GoT panel? No offense, but you need to get a grip.

I don't agree.

There is only one canon...hence, the definition of canon.

There is no canon in any adapation, only whether the adaption differs from the canon or not. There is only one LOTR canon and that is Tolkien. There is no Peter Jackson film canon, that is absurd. There is only changes from the source material or not. There is no Stephen King movie adaptation canon, the "true" stories are in his books.

As I said, there are a million ways to answer those types of questions without saying that your own work is no better than any adaptation, or making a mockery, in my opinion, of the many book fans who have spent countless hours analyzing and arguing over the motivations and decisions of these fictional characters....which, according to GRRM is totally stupid, because, they're fictional.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

GRRM is right. There is no "true" or "untrue" version of a fictional story. There are just different fictional works. There is book canon and show canon, and they're never going to match 100%, not even in most faithful adaptations, as he has demonstrated with the Gone with the Wind example. One may prefer one to the other - I certainly prefer the books - but that doesn't change the fact that those are simply two fictional works and none of them is "true".

GRRM was being decent and diplomatic and encouraged people to experience both works, which is the only thing one would have expected him to say, in the first place when asked about it. Benioff, on his part, took it upon himself to praise the books as more detailed and full of in-depth info and characterization that, according to him, the show can't fully cover. It would have looked bad if GRRM had been the one to praise his books over the show, with the showrunners and cast present.

Were you really expecting him to say "the show is nowhere as good as my books! Don't watch it! My books are the real story! Forget about the show!" even if he weren't on a GoT panel? No offense, but you need to get a grip.

Good grief. This!

[Le Cygne]

Remember, this is nitpick without repercussion.

[Le Cygne]

There is only one canon...hence, the definition of canon.

There is no canon in any adapation, only whether the adaption differs from the canon or not. There is only one LOTR canon and that is Tolkien. There is no Peter Jackson film canon, that is absurd. There is only changes from the source material or not. There is no Stephen King movie adaptation canon, the "true" stories are in his books.

As I said, there are a million ways to answer those types of questions without saying that your own work is no better than any adaptation, or making a mockery, in my opinion, of the many book fans who have spent countless hours analyzing and arguing over the motivations and decisions of these fictional characters....which, according to GRRM is totally stupid, because, they're fictional.

I agree, it was a poor argument, and it's not what he said before. GRRM:

"The fact that there are all of these spin-off products, the TV series, the comic book, the games, and all that. You know, all of that's fun and that's exciting, I'm still enough of a geek to appreciate all of this stuff. But at the same time, for me, these are secondary.

"For me, the books come first. That's the canon, so to speak... And if there's [anything else] that people enjoy, that's great... But it can never replace the books.

"My hope is that all of this leads to a certain amount of synchronicity. So whether you get into it by playing the game or by watching the TV show or by reading the comic books, it will actually lead you to pick up the books, and read the books, which are the primary thing."

http://www.sidequesting.com/2012/02/random-battle-george-rr-martin-interview/

[Cas Stark]

And that is a much better answer! But, he doesn't even need to get so specific as that, where he does indeed say the books are the primary source and the canon. All he has to do is praise the adaptation and say that adaptations and spin offs can all be enjoyed on their own merits. So easy.

I'm kind of surprised the comments seem only to have upset me, LOL.

Oh well, I'm sure that D&D will still leave me plenty to nitpick, even if I only focus on the show and stop comparing it to the books, either plotwise or character wise. Since they've already shown a tendency to sacrifice their own characterizations for a good one off scene.

[Tolsimir]

Nah, it's not just you Cas Stark. These comments have upset me aswell, but I am less and less willing to post on these forums.

[Le Cygne]

Agreed, it's not just you, not by a long stretch.

[Hattori]

I think you guys are all in denial. You keep coming with this excuse that the books are the cannon and nothing else or w/e. The point is, you will no longer read before watching. You wont be able to go "oh in the books it was much more well done". You will watch characters die, with filler inbetween.

[Cas Stark]

I think you guys are all in denial. You keep coming with this excuse that the books are the cannon and nothing else or w/e. The point is, you will no longer read before watching. You wont be able to go "oh in the books it was much more well done". You will watch characters die, with filler inbetween.

What are we in denial about? I don't get it. I don't think it's an excuse that the books are the canon, it is what it is. If GRRM never publishes another book, and the published series ends with Dance, then it would I suppose be debatable as to whether what occurred after the last published book on the show was or wasn't canon.

As I said, there is plenty to nitpick only dealing with the show and it's weakness on plot and logic, even without resorting to book comparing.

[Le Cygne]

I don't see them straying too much from the overall book story, if the books become classics, they don't want to be seen as the adaptation that made up a different story just as the series approaches the climax and resolution. I think they'll do what they've been doing, stick to the major points.

They change the characters, but they always end up in the same place. And no inner journeys, they don't even try to show them. No dreams, no flashbacks, and when someone isn't there, it's out of sight, out of mind. The two Beauties (Jaime, Sansa) forgot all about their Beasts (Brienne, Sandor). They'll go there again, though, that's why they set it up in the first place. But it's better to tell the story all along. Jon couldn't remember Ygritte until she was dying.

Dany wandering the grasslands was my favorite part of ADWD. She remembers Viserys, Drogo, Jorah, Daario... She turns her back on Drogon, but she keeps looking back, and the entire landscape is fighting her, telling her you are not a silk queen, you are a dragon, and then in the end she stops fighting, and embraces her dragon. They could show that. She could speak aloud. They could show flashbacks. But they won't.

[OldGimletEye]

I don't see them straying too much from the overall book story, if the books become classics, they don't want to be seen as the adaptation that made up a different story just as the series approaches the climax and resolution. I think they'll do what they've been doing, stick to the major points.

I'll pray to The Seven, The Old Gods, The Drowned God, R'hllor, The Many Faced God, The Horse God, Mother Rhoyne, The Lady of The Waves, The Lord of The Skies, The Black Goat,The Great Shepard, The Lady of Spears, and any other deity I have forgotten about, that this indeed happens.

[Hattori]

What are we in denial about? I don't get it. I don't think it's an excuse that the books are the canon, it is what it is. If GRRM never publishes another book, and the published series ends with Dance, then it would I suppose be debatable as to whether what occurred after the last published book on the show was or wasn't canon.

As I said, there is plenty to nitpick only dealing with the show and it's weakness on plot and logic, even without resorting to book comparing.

I guess i misinterpreted you wrongly. What I was trying to say is that if you watch the tv show from now on without waiting for the books, you are going to seriously have a hard time with all the plot inconsistencies and all the great scenes ruined

[Hattori]

I don't see them straying too much from the overall book story, if the books become classics, they don't want to be seen as the adaptation that made up a different story just as the series approaches the climax and resolution. I think they'll do what they've been doing, stick to the major points.

They change the characters, but they always end up in the same place. And no inner journeys, they don't even try to show them. No dreams, no flashbacks, and when someone isn't there, it's out of sight, out of mind. The two Beauties (Jaime, Sansa) forgot all about their Beasts (Brienne, Sandor). They'll go there again, though, that's why they set it up in the first place. But it's better to tell the story all along. Jon couldn't remember Ygritte until she was dying.

Dany wandering the grasslands was my favorite part of ADWD. She remembers Viserys, Drogo, Jorah, Daario... She turns her back on Drogon, but she keeps looking back, and the entire landscape is fighting her, telling her you are not a silk queen, you are a dragon, and then in the end she stops fighting, and embraces her dragon. They could show that. She could speak aloud. They could show flashbacks. But they won't.

lol im sorry but i think you are going to have a bad time then. They are already cutting and mixing characters on the show and creating scenarios that never happened in the book, what makes you think that now, with two books yet to be released, they wont make up most of the stuff? sure, the characters deaths will mostly be the same, but thats already the biggest mistake the show can make, that is to think that the only interesting stuff in the books are the deaths

[Le Cygne]

I'll pray to The Seven, The Old Gods, The Drowned God, R'hllor, The Many Faced God, The Horse God, Mother Rhoyne, The Lady of The Waves, The Lord of The Skies, The Black Goat,The Great Shepard, The Lady of Spears, and any other deity I have forgotten about, that this indeed happens.

I think you have all the gods covered. :lol:

The last season, I think they'll go with GRRM's outline. It's not like we'll suddenly miss all those good lines they have been using all along, or we'll suddenly miss all of the complex characterization. Cersei can't even remember she finds Jaime's stump replusive. Jaime can't even remember he spent much of the past two seasons becoming a better man. It's a good thing Brienne didn't meet Lady Stoneheart, how on earth could she have said, he's not the man he was? Liar, liar, pants on fire.

[Cas Stark]

I think you have all the gods covered. :lol:

The last season, I think they'll go with GRRM's outline. It's not like we'll suddenly miss all those good lines they have been using all along, or we'll suddenly miss all of the complex characterization. Cersei can't even remember she finds Jaime's stump replusive. Jaime can't even remember he spent much of the past two seasons becoming a better man. It's a good thing Brienne didn't meet Lady Stoneheart, how on earth could she have said, he's not the man he was? Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Maybe it's best if Show Brienne doesn't run into Stoneheart, she might thrown down on her and bite off one of her ears or go all stabby again.

[Le Cygne]

Maybe it's best if Show Brienne doesn't run into Stoneheart, she might thrown down on her and bite off one of her ears or go all stabby again.

So true! :lol:

Roll her eyes at her, like she did Sandor. Order her about, like she did Arya. And instead of saving Pod, tell him it's all his fault.

Arya and Sandor reacted just like Stoneheart, when she mentioned Jaime. And Sandor put his hands around the blade like Catelyn did to protect Bran.