Video Game Culture - In Need of Serious Self Reflection?

[eyenon15]

Okay, my mistake.

Thnx

Nothing at all passive aggressive about your apology, of course.

[Cricix]

Its not a video game thing its an internet thing. Anonymonity brings out the worse in people because no social repurcussions make them double check what they are saying. Want to know the true character of a person...give them power, or make them anonymous.

Its alot like moving to the Northeast here in the USA where so many people live in one area so they can treat each other like s*** because you will never interact with that person ever again.

I've been playing online for 20 years because I actually prefer to play with and against people. I have noticed that your own behavior plays a big part as well because you can always take the high road or kill them with kindness, and you will be amazed at the change. You can also always mute/ignore the bad apples. I've met some great people online and some of my best experiences in gaming have been with complete strangers.

[Kalbear]

Ignoring the bad apples is not enough. Silence is taken as tacit acceptance.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I think it is the KKK effect.

Most of the members of KKK are not, daily, going on about with with racial hatred bullshit to everyone they see.

But you put them under white sheets and group them together where they're safe amongst themselves, and you get a different presentation.

Same with gamers.

That's a terrible, stupid and intentionally inflammatory comparison.

[Theda Baratheon]

That's a terrible, stupid and intentionally inflammatory comparison.

It's not really a comparison. That post isn't saying Gamers are like the KKK. it's more highlighting the sort of behaviour that comes with anonymity and putting people who hold not so great views together. That's how I read it anyway.

Ignoring the bad apples is not enough. Silence is taken as tacit acceptance.

Yep. And when polite highlighting of ''that's a shitty thing to say'' is brought up and met with ''fuck you bitch'' and various other insults, you know there's a big problem.

[Relic]

That's a terrible, stupid and intentionally inflammatory comparison.

Can we avoid the painful irony of having this thread devolve into something unpleasant? I, personally, promise to remain civil.

[Darian Frey]

Thnx

Nothing at all passive aggressive about your apology, of course.

See? This illustrates just how perfectly we both got the meaning behind our comments wrong! Doesn't it?

[eyenon15]

See? This illustrates just how perfectly we both got the meaning behind our comments wrong! Doesn't it?

I really dont know what you are talking about, I didn't do anything wrong. This is starting to derail the thread, we should probably stop.

[Ran]

There's no such thing as the "KKK effect", but TerraPrime's just talking about groupshift (a much less offensive term) for the phenomena of groups of people tending towards extremes compared to what they might do or think when looked at in isolation.

It's worth remembering that gamers do a lot of good things, as well. They contribute to Child's Play and other charities to the tune of millions of dollars a year. I think there's a somewhat broad brush being used to suggest that any really substantial portion of gamers are aggressive, filth-spewing misogynists. The trolls are always the loudest, in any on-line community, and it doesn't mean that everyone in the community is on board with it.

It'd be nice if those who weren't on board with it made more of an issue of it rather than just keeping quiet because they don't want the hassle.

[Cricix]

Yep. And when polite highlighting of ''that's a shitty thing to say'' is brought up and met with ''fuck you bitch'' and various other insults, you know there's a big problem.

But when they say that, you respond with something ridiculously silly. Like, "I would love if we partook in fornication." You just stay calm and agree with every statement they say in some completely off the wall way. This way you get to see how really clever they are.

I get these hate messages all the time, its par for the course for being really good at a game, but its fun messing with these kids. The key is to get them talking long enough so you hear their mom in the background asking them to do the dishes and then you can pounce!

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Can we avoid the painful irony of having this thread devolve into something unpleasant? I, personally, promise to remain civil.

I have no personal stake in this. I only play single player rpgs occasionally and am not active in any gaming communities.

But I saw a stupid argument and called it out.

Even if the argument didn't directly compare gamers to the KKK, it was still inviting an association by mentioning the two groups together. There are many other possible examples that could been used to prove the point about anonymity and associations, like biker gangs or police or whatever.

And the actual argument, disregarding the inflammatory association, doesn't make any sense. The KKK promotes racial hatred. it's pretty much in their mission statement. Even if "Most of the members of KKK are not, daily, going on about with with racial hatred bullshit to everyone they see." anyone who joins the organization would not be remiss with being associated with promoting racial hatred. Otherwise they wouldn't have joined.

Gamers are just people who play videogames more than most people. Even if most of them do promote racial hatred or misogyny, there are still many people who can be gamers and legitimately wouldn't want to be associated with that.

I don't see how the KKK example is at all relevant, and were I less charitable, I'd assume it was just a cheap method to mention the two groups in the same breath.

[Seli]

Ignoring the bad apples is not enough. Silence is taken as tacit acceptance.

Yes. Or as the Australian chief of army once put it: the standard you walk past, is the standard you accept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqpoeVgr8U

[Relic]

Brief story of my battles with online game douchebaggery.

Years ago I was persuaded by a good friend to start playing WoW. This was at the start of BC. My first few days on this vent were spent meeting all his pvp/guild buddies who were hard core gamers, and amongst the best pvpers in the game. They all had terrible attitudes towards anyone not as good as them, flaming noobs left and right. That was the least of their faults, however. In vent (voice chat) they used horrible language, especially targeting gays. The slurs would fly constantly, one worse than the other. After a few days of putting up with it I started being extremely... I guess you can say homo-erotic. I would make suggestive comments aimed initially at my afore mentioned friend who had invited me into his ventrillo cesspool. Chat would literally grind to a halt after each explicit comment I made. To his credit my buddy picked up on what I was doing and started to go along with it. We would express our mad man love towards one another constantly and ignored those asking us to stop. A few of the homophobes left but the majority stayed on and before long the slurs stopped and the homo-erotisism spread to most of our players. We even started using the phrase "that's so straight" to describe things we didn't like, replacing the word "gay" to discuss something negative. It was childish in some ways but I felt I scored a victory there.

Later on I took over ownership of the vent and banned all usage of racial slurs as well. We had a popular vent going and anyone who violated repeatedly was banned and was not allowed to join us on raids either. The language and culture of the vent/guild changed drastically and while I don't think our influence carried over into RL with some of those guys I know for a fact a few of them really changed their shitty behavior even outside of vent as a result.

Edit - writing long posts on a phone sucks!

[Guy Kilmore]

But when they say that, you respond with something ridiculously silly. Like, "I would love if we partook in fornication." You just stay calm and agree with every statement they say in some completely off the wall way. This way you get to see how really clever they are.

I get these hate messages all the time, its par for the course for being really good at a game, but its fun messing with these kids. The key is to get them talking long enough so you hear their mom in the background asking them to do the dishes and then you can pounce!

Brief story of my battles with online game douchebaggery.

Years ago I was persuaded by a good friend to start playing WoW. This was at the start of BC. My first few days on this vent were spent meeting all his pvp/guild buddies who were hard core gamers, and amongst the best pvpers in the game. They all had terrible attitudes towards anyone not as good as them, flaming noobs left and right. That was the least of their faults, however. In vent (voice chat) they used horrible language, especially targeting gays. The slurs would fly constantly, one worse than the other. After a few days of putting up with it I started being extremely... I guess you can say homo-erotic. I would make suggestive comments aimed initially at my afore mentioned friend who had invited me into his ventrillo cesspool. Chat would literally grind to a halt after each explicit comment I made. To his credit my buddy picked up on what I was doing and started to go along with it. We would express our mad man love towards one another constantly and ignored those asking us to stop. A few of the homophobes left but the majority stayed on and before long the slurs stopped and the homo-erotisism spread to most of our players. We even started using the phrase "that's so straight" to describe things we didn't like, replacing the word "gay" to discuss something negative. It was childish in some ways but I felt I scored a victory there.

Later on I took over ownership of the vent and banned all usage of racial slurs as well. We had a popular vent going and anyone who violated repeatedly was banned and was not allowed to join us on raids either. The language and culture of the vent/guild changed drastically and while I don't think our influence carried over into RL with some of those guys I know for a fact a few of them really changed their shitty behavior even outside of vent as a result.

Edit - writing long posts on a phone sucks!

Yep, it is amazing what happens when you stop someone just for a moment and they self-reflect. My favorite tactic when people are being jerks after having it pointed out to them is to let them know that I am "judging them." I would also let them know it didn't matter what I thought of them, but I would express my "judgement" of their behavior. (Usually along the lines of, "you are portraying yourself as the kind of person who thinks and does [this behavior] when you think no one is watching. It comes off as being [usually bigoted] and cowardly.) I was surprised how many people shut-up after doing something like that. Sometimes I would have to repeat it.

[sologdin]

the vast majority of gamer personae with whom I've interacted on various servers through the years have presented themselves as worthless wastes of space. generally not sporting, racist/sexist/&c., pro-rape, subliterate & inarticulate, lumpenized in role & affect, dishonest, without wit, authoritarian personalities within the scope of adorno's study, and so on. maybe they are not thoroughly antisocial or psychotic off the internet. dunno/duncare.

[Cricix]

That's exactly what I do Relic! Great story.

[Serious Callers Only]

Gamers (everyone that self describes as a 'hardcore gamer') are human refuse. It is known.

[Werthead]

And while some of them glamourize to an extent others, like Godfather Blackhand edition and Mafia 2 deal with the shit.

Godfather you becmoe Don of New York, but pretty much all your friends and family are dead. Mafia 2 it's much the same, except your not even Don, in fact you not even that high up anymore.

The Mafia games - particularly the first one - are very good in how they deconstruct the kind of typical macho BS in those kind of games.

Although I do think GTA gets tarred with too broad a brush in these discussions. The individual games in the series vary quite a bit in tone, humour and how they handle elements. The only one that really promotes and encourages violent, insane behaviour in the in-game plot is Vice City (maybe with Trevor in GTA5 to a lesser extent), the rest mostly present your main character as something of a good or misunderstood guy. If you choose to then go and play him as a raging psychopath even if it breaks character, that's up to you. A lot of people forget in these discussions that the game gives you a broad sandbox to play in and if you choose to abuse it, in a sense, that's your choice (and the same goes for Skyrim and any other open-world game).

A good example is how some of the games had 'poor' (being charitable) presentations of gay characters, particularly Vice City, but then The Ballad of Gay Tony featured a surprisingly nuanced relationship between the main character and his gay employer.

[Darian Frey]

The Mafia games - particularly the first one - are very good in how they deconstruct the kind of typical macho BS in those kind of games.

Although I do think GTA gets tarred with too broad a brush in these discussions. The individual games in the series vary quite a bit in tone, humour and how they handle elements. The only one that really promotes and encourages violent, insane behaviour in the in-game plot is Vice City (maybe with Trevor in GTA5 to a lesser extent), the rest mostly present your main character as something of a good or misunderstood guy. If you choose to then go and play him as a raging psychopath even if it breaks character, that's up to you. A lot of people forget in these discussions that the game gives you a broad sandbox to play in and if you choose to abuse it, in a sense, that's your choice (and the same goes for Skyrim and any other open-world game).

A good example is how some of the games had 'poor' (being charitable) presentations of gay characters, particularly Vice City, but then The Ballad of Gay Tony featured a surprisingly nuanced relationship between the main character and his gay employer.

I distinctly remember a mission in GTA4 where the protagonist was driving with a woman in the car, punching her repeatedly while shouting 'shut your mouth, beetch!'. I couldn't really say that guy was misunderstood. I don't think we can really say it's ok for these events to occur, if for some days of his ingame life, the character shows signs of 'goodness'. He's not misunderstood, he's an arsehole. Your point on the sandbox nature of the game is true, however that scripted behaviour is exactly the reason why the GTA franchise should absolutely be held accountable within the framework of this discussion. And there are many scripted events across the entire series.

I'm as guilty of anyone of playing these games and hardly giving this type of behaviour a second thought in my pursuit of entertainment. I'd like to think that the fog has lifted where that is concerned. I can still play the game as it's intended, but I can still be aware of the issues that are thrown to the forefront by doing so.

TLDR GTA is evul.

[Stannisaurus2]

I distinctly remember a mission in GTA4 where the protagonist was driving with a woman in the car, punching her repeatedly while shouting 'shut your mouth, beetch!'. I couldn't really say that guy was misunderstood. I don't think we can really say it's ok for these events to occur, if for some days of his ingame life, the character shows signs of 'goodness'. He's not misunderstood, he's an arsehole. Your point on the sandbox nature of the game is true, however that scripted behaviour is exactly the reason why the GTA franchise should absolutely be held accountable within the framework of this discussion. And there are many scripted events across the entire series.

Because in a game where you kill dozens of people and you get scripted missions were you usually have to butcher or even torture dozens of men, sometimes innocent or unarmed or fleeing for their lives, what really makes the character an arsehole is punching a woman and using a gendered insult.

Despite ofcourse the fact that in the real world violence (and especially the lethal kind) against men is far more common and far more acceptable.