Is Daenerys making Drogon murderous or, is Drogon making Daenerys murderous?

[mormont]

[mod] Please keep interpersonal issues out of the thread. [/mod]

[PirateVergo]

Queen Sansa, "outrageous acts of wickedness" was just my joke.

When you've been on this forum for some time you'll see arguments that:-

1. Dany murdered Viserys (and had been planning to do so for some time)

2. Dany raped Irri.

3. Dany tortures children.

Isn't that a fact?

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

Queen Sansa, "outrageous acts of wickedness" was just my joke.

When you've been on this forum for some time you'll see arguments that:-

1. Dany murdered Viserys (and had been planning to do so for some time)

2. Dany raped Irri.

3. Dany tortures children.

Oh, I've been here long enough.

[El Guapo]

Isn't that a fact?

Nope. We don't know the ages of the winesellers daughters.

[BastardlyRock]

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/about/faqs/animals/names.htm

Apparently, "tiding of magpies" is used more often.

Ah, sure enough. I guess it's only when they're really worked up that they fly in a murder. :D

[Game Of Thrones]

Ah, sure enough. I guess it's only when they're really worked up that they fly in a murder. :D

An army of frogs.... :lol:

[BastardlyRock]

An army of frogs.... :lol:

I can see it! :lmao:

[Game Of Thrones]

I can see it! :lmao:

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Mithras]

Nope. We don't know the ages of the winesellers daughters.

Neither does Dany.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Nope. We don't know the ages of the winesellers daughters.

Given that they work at a wine store, there is no reason to assume they are children, quite the opposite actually. It's the word 'daughter' that throws people off I think.

[MoIaF]

Neither does Dany.

We don't know that do we. Why would she say anything about it if they were adults.

[Primalsplit]

Will you feel better if those daughters are 80 hags? They were innocent if I remember correctly, that's what it matters.

After reading meereenese blot essays on Dany, I am convinced that we should look dragons as a metaphor as well. The relevant part of essay: http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/05/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-iv-a-darker-daenerys/

[Mithras]

Not only they were 99.9% innocent but they might also be children or pregnant or married with children etc. I can't decide which is worse: this ambiguity or a hypothetical case that Dany ordered their torture with knowing that they were children.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Will you feel better if those daughters are 80 hags? They were innocent if I remember correctly, that's what it matters.

After reading meereenese blot essays on Dany, I am convinced that we should look dragons as a metaphor as well. The relevant part of essay: http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/05/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-iv-a-darker-daenerys/

Where does it say they were innocent? they were arrested at the scene of the crime where murders had happened. We never hear about it again. To assume they were children or innocent is just as likely as assuming they were guilty adults. There is no actual answer in the text.

And if it were nearly as important as people on here make it out to be, then wouldnt it have at least been mentioned in the text one more time?

[Hodor's Dragon]

So a lion cannot, in your opinion, murderously take down a gazelle? Since it pertains to humans? That is definitely incorrect. An adjective it is, but it is not only pertaining to humans. It is the context which decides what it pertains to.

But I do in fact disagree with OP.

I would certainly never use that word to describe a predator taking down prey. I was a little surprised, in fact, to see a Merriam-Webster definition applying the adjective to mere violence, and when I looked it up, it seems that that is only some sort of description of the word, and the actual definition is more what I expected:

mur·der·ous adjective \ˈmər-d(ə-)rəs\

: very violent or deadly

: very angry

: very harsh or severe

Full Definition of MURDEROUS

1

a : having the purpose or capability of murder

b : characterized by or causing murder or bloodshed

2

: having the ability or power to overwhelm : devastating<murderous heat>

— mur·der·ous·ly adverb

— mur·der·ous·ness noun

I'm really not quite understanding what Webster did there by giving a standard definition of murderous but also having some words above the definition that give what seems to be an alternate meaning. In fact, there are about half a dozen online definitions of murderous, including Websters, and they each make it plain that it pertains to, guess what, murder, so I'm baffled about where that "very violent" came from.

So no, lions don't murderously take down gazelles.

[LordStoneheart]

Perhaps reading about Cersei, Tyrion, and Tywin has influenced some into thinking a lion can "murder" someone. An animal does not murder. An animal hunts. It's unreasonable to think otherwise. My dogs were not murderers because they killed the rabbits that had the misfortune to stumble upon our yard. So too was it extremely unfortunate that Hazzea was in the carnage of a hunting dragon. That cannot be sugarcoated to me. It's atrocious. It's sad. But don't call it murder. That's completely the wrong way to think about it.

Isn't that a fact?

No. For one, in the most literal sense, she did nothing but approve of it happening. And as El Guapo says, we never learned their ages.

Not only they were 99.9% innocent but they might also be children or pregnant or married with children etc. I can't decide which is worse: this ambiguity or a hypothetical case that Dany ordered their torture with knowing that they were children.

They could have also been murderous cutthroats who rape and murder unsuspecting freedmen, feasted on their flesh, and bathed in their blood to keep their youth and using said blood in the wine.

I can't decide which is worse: coming up with bullshit hypotheticals to make a character I hate worse or actually using that as a basis to judge.

[SeanF]

Where does it say they were innocent? they were arrested at the scene of the crime where murders had happened. We never hear about it again. To assume they were children or innocent is just as likely as assuming they were guilty adults. There is no actual answer in the text.

And if it were nearly as important as people on here make it out to be, then wouldnt it have at least been mentioned in the text one more time?

Dany deserves a lot of criticism over this. She ordered them to be tortured in a fit of fury. The fact that she gave no more thought to it, does not excuse her. It makes her behaviour worse. I'm sure they and their father confessed to anything the Shavepate put to them. As confessed traitors, we can guess what their fate would have been.

But, we certainly don't know that they were children.

[BitsOfBrains]

It was proved when she said her son will become king and sit on the IT.

Viserys was still alive at the time.

So either Dany did plan to kill Viserys (because that's basically the only way for her son to become king) or she is stupid.

Oh thats good. I totally missed that.

[Game Of Thrones]

Dany deserves a lot of criticism over this. She ordered them to be tortured in a fit of fury. The fact that she gave no more thought to it, does not excuse her. It makes her behaviour worse. I'm sure they and their father confessed to anything the Shavepate put to them. As confessed traitors, we can guess what their fate would have been.

If they were executed, don't you think Dany would have mentioned it? I always thought that the absence of further information about them indicates that Skahaz couldn't find anything about the SotH by torturing them.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Dany deserves a lot of criticism over this. She ordered them to be tortured in a fit of fury. The fact that she gave no more thought to it, does not excuse her. It makes her behaviour worse. I'm sure they and their father confessed to anything the Shavepate put to them. As confessed traitors, we can guess what their fate would have been.

But, we certainly don't know that they were children.

Hey you know what, I was thinking more about your stance on 'questioning sharply' and I found a quote that shows that questioning sharply does in fact work sometimes. It is not always just useless torture, sometimes people have done bad things then lie about them. With no polygraph around sometimes people in charge must resort to finding out the truth, I am not saying that the Tickler was right to go from town to town looking for money or wolves with zero evidence that the people he is torturing know the answers to his questions, as they are just innocent townsfolk who have not been caught at any scene of any crimes. And that situation is completely different than the one Dany is in. Yes Dany was in a fit of fury, but she was furious about the murder of NINE of her men. She had 9 of her men murdered the night before the 'question sharply' conversation, for her to do nothing would be bad leadership, should she continue to let her men be killed every day without any response at all? Would any ruler in the books do that? How long would they remain leaders if they took zero action to protect their subjects/soldiers? Anyway here is an example of 'questioning sharply' working;

FFC Jaime chapter

"The outlaws who killed your husband......was it Lord Beric's band?"

"So we thought, at first." ...."The killers scattered when they left Oldstones. Lord Vypren tracked one band to Fairmarket, but lost them there. Black Walder led hounds and hunters into Hag's Mire after the others. the peasants denied seeing them, but when questioned sharply they sang a different song. They spoke of a one-eyed man and another who wore a yellow cloak....and a woman, cloaked and hooded."

So not only did they get the truth from the peasants about the murderer of this woman's husband, the peasants specifically described Lem and Lady Stoneheart, 2 people the questioners did not even ask about or expect, so they got info on a murder by questioning sharply, info they would never have gotten had they not questioned sharply...so you tell me, is it always wrong to do when trying to find out answers about a murder(or something equally bad)?