Tyrion Lannister is NOT a (willing) rapist.

[Mikkel]

badly worded Tyrion defense that will be reported as "rape apology".

As far as I'm concerned, a few of the posts in this topic really can't be seen as anything but "rape apology". Or rather, "rape justification" (which is probably even worse).

[RoamingRonin]

Get labelled a rape apologists in one thread. Get cheered and smilies in another for supporting torture/murder/mass murder/war in another.

Leave your agendas at the door.

[JoeyBanana]

The problem, as I see it, is that while both are undoubtedly wrong, there is a significant difference between having sex with someone who has been ordered to and physically forcing yourself upon someone, and that using the same term for both, while technically accurate, doesn't really seem fair, especially given the violent connotations a word like "rape" often carries with it. So while it doesn't seem right to me to say that Tyrion isn't a rapist, it doesn't seem right to say that he is one either, if that makes any sense.

I understand what you're trying to say and mostly agree, but there's really no argument against people calling him that. Same as traitor, murderer, etc.. He committed these crimes and we can't ignore it. All that you really can do is put the whole thing into context, like in a response if you think it's unfair. But that's an issue of morality, not law.

[mediterraneo]

Hey gus, you know what?

You are humans able to feel sympathy for a (fictional) rapist.
Let's deal with it.
I am another one, as I find Tyrion mostly sympathetic. And entertaining.
But there is really no way to deny he is a rapist. That's not the only thing he did in his life, but it is what he did to his true love.

He raped his true love because daddy said so.
He raped her, because his father told him she was a prostitute, and THUS it was rightful to gang rape her. The money part is part of the humiliation, not a payment. By accepting to participate in the gang rape Tyrion accepted his place in his society, above common mortals (a gold coin for you, because you are a Lannister). He accepted also that prostitutes can be raped because they are sex workers, and thus have expressed an authomatical consent everywhere and everytime.
Let's deal with that.

Although it is normally easier, when reality contrasts with one's mindsets, to just ignore reality. We are all exposed to that tendence.

The guy who spent time to unselfishly think of a way for Bran to ride again is a rapist.
The guy which couldn't rape Sansa Stark is a rapist.

The witty guy, accused of a crime he didn't commit, able to escape from the Eyrie is a rapist.

The fragile guy, so in need of friendship and love that he ends up buying them is a rapist.

For the third time, let's deal with that.

But hey, Martin finds interesting and funny Cugel the Clever too, which is another rapist.
Someone that actually sequesters and force people to have sex with him, then leaves them to be eaten by seamonsters or to drown. I don't like Cugel the Clever as a person, just to clarify. I'm sure that his author didn't think of him as a role model either, as well as that Martin knows that Tyrion is not the perfect role model.
But Cugel is the inspiration for the Lannister family founder, Lann the Clever.
Martin suggested reading it when Jack Vance (Cugel's author) passed away. "The Dying Earth". You can read that too, it is interesting. "The Eyes of the Overlord".

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Very good, top marks, but he's also one more thing: GRRM's favorite character ;)

I think GRRM said he likes him cause he's witty and at the same time dark.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Those who say that Tyrion became despicable in Book 5 are wrong. He has always been despicable. We knew he was despicable in Book 1 when a good man gave him the coat off his back in freezing cold weather, and instead of showing gratitude, Tyrion congratulated himself on being the cause of the man's suffering by taking advantage of his generosity and goodness. We knew he was despicable in Book 1 ever since he gave Jon lessons in "How to be a complete dick, full of self-pity, resentment, and entitlement, and make everyone on the Night Watch hate you." Thankfully, Donal Noye undid the damage there.

But why quibble about rape? He is a murderer too. He murders Symon. He murders Shae. He murders Tywin. He arms the mountain men to rape and pillage in the Vale. He gives one of his mountain men a medal for murdering a wineseller's son. He plots the death of Myrcella, because he knows Myrcella's death will cause Cersei to weep bitter tears.

Spot on

[larastone]

I think there are many worse characters in asoiaf, but yes it was a dickmove.

Tywin is easily in top 5 worst people in ASOIAF list. He's just as awful as Roose.

[ChillyPolly]

But hey, Martin finds interesting and funny Cugel the Clever too, which is another rapist.

Someone that actually sequesters and force people to have sex with him, then leaves them to be eaten by seamonsters or to drown. I don't like Cugel the Clever as a person, just to clarify. I'm sure that his author didn't think of him as a role model either, as well as that Martin knows that Tyrion is not the perfect role model.

But Cugel is the inspiration for the Lannister family founder, Lann the Clever.

I presume Lann's inspirations are not merely "Cugel the Clever" but also "Liane the Wayfarer".

I was slightly put off by GRRM's comments about Cugel though. I mean, Cugel is a monster, not someone who "everybody loves". Yes, the Cugel stories have a dark humor to them, derived from the contrast between how awful he is and the extremely high opinion he has about himself, but I don't think Vance would say the things about Cugel that GRRM does.

[Balerion the one eared cat]

Completely agree with OP. He does have sex with Tysha, but he believes she's a whore, and like you said, Tywin is a DICK (I may be paraphrasing but that's essentially the gist).

As for the woman in Pentos, we do not find out whether he ever did sleep with Illyrio's worker. He tells her to wait for him in his bed, but never goes up there, just reflects on the fact that he got a reaction of fear out her. As later on, in the whorehouse in Selhorys, Tyrion implies that the whore was the first woman he'd been with since Shae, and so he didn't sleep with Illyrio's girl.

As for the whorehouse, whilst that wasn't Tyrion's most heroic moment, she is a paid whore, so it does not class as rape whether she despises him or not, and besides, he feels guilty afterwards.

As for wanting to rape Cersei, that's obviously just Tyrion's black humour - firstly living up to the "my older brother Jaime is better than me at everything and he sleeps with Cersei, so I'm going to take that away from him because of Tysha" aspect of his character (he really is just a sad, misunderstood little boy with a serious inferiority complex with Jaime :frown5: ), and also because he's playing the villain they all want him to be. I do believe he may try and kill Cersei next time he sees her, but I don't think he'd go as far as raping her. He is too good for that.

I do agree that he becomes a little insufferable in ADWD, but come on, can you blame him after what he's gone through? And even then he still tries to protect Penny rather than let her see the harsh reality of real life.

[BastardlyRock]

I think GRRM said he likes him cause he's witty and at the same time dark.

I'm sure he's said that somewhere as well, but while we're at it here's a couple fun ones picked out from this article.

When asked how he would prefer to die if he were a character in the series GRRM said:

Anyone under the age of 14 here, please cover your ears. When one of the Hill tribe says, 'Tyrion, son of Tywin, how would you like to die?' he answers, 'At the age of 90 with a bellyful of wine and a girl's mouth around my....

and of course...

Tyrion might be who I want to be, but Sam is probably closer to who I actually am. The fat kid who likes to read books and doesn't like to go up a lot of stairs.

So I guess despite it all GRRM doesn't just admire Tyrion or enjoy writing him, but would want to be him. I would think some posters must have rather dismal views of GRRM after hearing that. :O

[Hodor's Dragon]

Then, we can count Dany among the rapers as well.

Irri slept soundly beside her, her lips slightly parted, one dark brown nipple peeping out above the sleeping silks. For a moment Dany was tempted, but it was Drogo she wanted, or perhaps Daario. Not Irri. The maid was sweet and skillful, but all her kisses tasted of duty.

When there is duty, there is no consent and so Dany is a rapist.

Am I insane, having deja vu, or is this the 2nd time I've seen this BS argument today.

Christ, Irri started it. Just because Dany has a thought later that Irri didn't like it doesn't make it rape.

What a bizarre idea.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Tyrion was forced to have sex with a woman his father told him was a prostitute. FOR TYRION, having sex with prostitutes is not rape: it's what he and every other men in Westeros does. Or mostly of them. Unless of course, you think they all are willing participants in a life they probably dreamed to have as little girls.

He found out such girl wasn't, hence, he participated in a gang rape of an innocent girl.

He killed a prostitute after that. Then, he killed his father. Why is that? Because he realised he was not only an abuser, but also, a victim of abuse his own father arranged.

He got to Pentos completely broken inside, wishing to die and prone to cruelty. Abused people often (but not always) goes that route.

What he did was right? Nope. There are reasons for him to have done that? Yep. Is that a "excuse"? Nope. But there are reasons? Yep.

[ChillyPolly]

Completely agree with OP. He does have sex with Tysha, but he believes she's a whore [...]

This is mysterious to me. Here's what Tyrion KNOWS about Tysha. He KNOWS that she was starving and desperate when he found her. He KNOWS that she was a virgin, and that it was he who got her drunk and took her virginity. He KNOWS that they afterwards made their vows to each other. He has no reason to suppose she has ever betrayed her vows to him.

How does Jaime saying "I paid a pimp double to procure a virgin for you" change anything? Either way, she is an innocent girl being persecuted by crooks.

How on earth is calling her a "whore" an excuse for anything, in this context? "She doesn't really LOVE me she wants ME GOLLDD!!! Welll, she can't have me golldd!!!"

[Cthulhu the Drowned God]

I understand what you're trying to say and mostly agree, but there's really no argument against people calling him that. Same as traitor, murderer, etc.. He committed these crimes and we can't ignore it. All that you really can do is put the whole thing into context, like in a response if you think it's unfair. But that's an issue of morality, not law.

Well, I wasn't so much trying to bemoan the use of the word at all so much as just wishing there was a less loaded term that could be better used, given that "rape" generally carries with it implications of physical force and violence that don't really apply in Tyrion's case (and just so there's no confusion, I'm just talking about him making use of the slave in the brothel here; the Tysha thing's a whole other kettle of fish that I'm not going to touch), and because of that nobody in these types of threads really seem to be on the same page, making an already extremely tricky to discuss subject into an outright minefield. I don't know, maybe there should be different degrees of rape the same way there is for murder, so we could differentiate between what Tyrion did and what Gregor Clegane tends to do without having to type up long paragraphs about it every time it's brought up.

[Hodor's Dragon]

snip -> He got to Pentos completely broken inside, wishing to die and prone to cruelty. Abused people often (but not always) goes that route. -> snip

I presume Tyrion was suffering from some sort of stress-related mental disorder throughout much of ADWD, especially the initial part. It seems pretty clear to me, since we're in his mind and his thought processes have suddenly radically changed.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Oh mercy me. I can only marvel at the wrongness of the topic premise. And by "marvel" I mean "stare in slack-jawed disbelief". :ack:

[Winter's Knight]

Oh mercy me. I can only marvel at the wrongness of the topic premise. And by "marvel" I mean "stare in slack-jawed disbelief". :ack:

I envy you, All I can muster is a half hearted groan-but then, I was just yesterday arguing that no, Victarion is not a good man.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Agreed on Tysha. It was rape, and Tywin was the rapist, even if he never even took off his trousers. Tyrion's opinion on, say, sex with prostitutes, at that moment is, for me, next to irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that he was so cowed, or scared, or simply fucked up in the head, by Daddy Tywin, that he saw no other choice than to go with it. It's pretty obvious he by no mean was a willing participant. Maybe if he had been older, smarter, braver, more mature, he would've found strength to stand up to Tywin. But as things went, Tyrion was one of the victims.

Disagreed on Illyrio's... servant? Slave? I don't give a fuck whether she was a prostitute, or not (guess what: a prostitute can be raped, too). What is relevant here is that she didn't have a choice; there are no indications whatsoever that she did. And Tyrion didn't give a fuck about that. His defender may plead, say, temporary insanity, but I'll strongly advise against playing the "It's no big deal, she was being paid for it" card. It doesn't sound very good.

[ChillyPolly]

Agreed on Tysha. It was rape, and Tywin was the rapist, even if he never even took off his trousers.

There were lots of rapists present. Those who never took off their trousers, and those who did take off their trousers.

[Nyrhex]

Oh for fuck's sake...

Tyrion wants to get even with Lysa Arryn for holding him in the Sky Cells. Instead of that little voice in the back of your head that tells you to not follow up with your revenge fantasy, Tyrion does exactly that. He gets his father to hand the Mountain Clansmen enough gear for them to once again start raiding in force.

What do these raids aim to achieve? Steal, kidnap, and rape. To get the Vale of Arryn they would still need a Lannister army's backing, and Tywin is not going to start a war just because Tyrion has a score to settle, when he already has 3 fronts. To give the clansmen gear in return for thier aid in what Tywin thinks is going to be an even match against Robb's army, is a fair exchange to a man like Tywin. This isn't even something that bothers Lysa directly, as she is not likely to walk around without a strong guard. The Vale' smallfolk, however, are fucked. Because Tyrion Lannister is a horrible person, and this mental gymnastics to get him to somehow still be a good person after he does something like this is fanboyism at it's worst.