Outlander: Waiting for April [SPOILERS: First Season]

[Le Cygne]

I thought it was really beautifully done. I can't ever think of much I don't like, it's the books come to life. The actors who play Claire and Jamie keep knocking the ball out of the park.

[Elaena Targaryen]

That...was.......simply amazing. By far my favorite episode of the series and one of my favorite episodes of television ever.

Oh good, I'm glad you enjoyed it. :) What were you're favorite bits?

At first I was a little worried they might drag out the trial to long but in the end I thought the episode was very well done.

It also seemed ridiculous that Jamie would believe her with no tangible proof. He's supposed to be an educated man.

You've read the books right? How does it compare for you? I wondered how this would come off for others, I'm not to sure what to think yet.

Is it meant to show Jaime's unconditional deep love, trust and support for Claire? Was Jaime thinking back over the time he's known Claire and any odd behavior so it makes some sense? Is it meant to show how reasonable Jaime can be with Claire or how irrational he is over her? All of the above?

It didn't seem that off for me considering how they highlighted the irrational superstitions of the people in that time during the episode. It makes you wonder if Jaime could think she's a faerie but he's already shown he's educated enough to know better which is why his easy acceptance is interesting. I hope they show more of his thoughts and feelings.

I thought it was really beautifully done. I can't ever think of much I don't like, it's the books come to life. The actors who play Claire and Jamie keep knocking the ball out of the park.

I agree!

[Dr. Pepper]

You've read the books right? How does it compare for you? I wondered how this would come off for others, I'm not to sure what to think yet.

Is it meant to show Jaime's unconditional deep love, trust and support for Claire? Was Jaime thinking back over the time he's known Claire and any odd behavior so it makes some sense? Is it meant to show how reasonable Jaime can be with Claire or how irrational he is over her? All of the above?

It didn't seem that off for me considering how they highlighted the irrational superstitions of the people in that time during the episode. It makes you wonder if Jaime could think she's a faerie but he's already shown he's educated enough to know better which is why his easy acceptance is interesting. I hope they show more of his thoughts and feelings.

I've read them, though I think the show continues to be a huge improvement on the books. I didn't care for the books at all. I do regret having read the books because it becomes difficult to not think ahead and see how certain plot changes will effect future plots.

Just to be specific about the show, I'm not feeling this great love between Jamie and Claire. Further, I'm not feeling Claire's great love for this Scottish time period. I'm left wondering why she would choose to stay after she has experienced two near rapes, a kidnapping, a beating and now a witch trial all in close succession. Actually, it seemed unclear that she even made a choice. She seems to want to walk straight through the rocks when they get to the top of the hill, without thinking or second guessing. Then Jamie stops her to say goodbye and suddenly the one time we need voiceovers, we get nothing but silence. Then we have a fade to black when Claire walks towards the rocks again only to have her suddenly reappearing near Jamie. It seemed like a lot of poor filming choices because it looks almost as though Claire stayed simply because she couldn't go through again.

Spoiler about the scene in the book.

In the book, Claire doesn't want Jamie anywhere near the rocks because she's afraid he'll disappear. He beats all over the rocks and nothing happens so she thinks it's ok and goes to put her hand against it only to start disappearing. Jamie grabs her to pull her back and reveals that he was unsure if he believed it until he saw her disappearing before his eyes. She later makes a deliberate choice to stay. Ron Moore says he didn't do this because he didn't want the show to be 'too sci-fi'. (sorry, being too lazy to find that quote). The problem is that he didn't adjust the plot the show Claire making an actual choice and also to show exactly why Jamie believes this.

One thing I have loved is Claire's and Geillis' friendship. The dialogue and the actors really sell this relationship. I believe it, and it's believable that the friendship was strong enough that Claire would go to Geilis in town even knowing that she had murdered her husband and also believable that Claire would stand by her in being burned even knowing that there was a quick out she could have taken. Though, this very lovely believable relationship made the fact that neither spoke about time traveling in the face of being burned alive seem somewhat absurd.

The other problems I had with this episode include set up for future plots, but I'm not sure that this contributed my general feeling of 'blah' here. I like these changes now, though it confuses things later. I do trust them, so I'm trying not to focus on it much.

[Jack Bauer 24]

Wow I didn't know they changed the scene that much from the books.

[Le Cygne]

I've read them, though I think the show continues to be a huge improvement on the books. I didn't care for the books at all. I do regret having read the books because it becomes difficult to not think ahead and see how certain plot changes will effect future plots.

Just to be specific about the show, I'm not feeling this great love between Jamie and Claire.

I thought it was very similar to the books, not note for note, but close. She made a choice, she stayed for Jamie. I've only read the book once and watched the show once, but I thought that was clear.

I see the great love between Jamie and Claire on the show, too. She's afraid to stay, it's a scary choice, and that's understandable. But that she chose to stay with Jamie, even so, speaks volumes.

Also I don't see the show as an improvement over the books, I think they are both about the same in terms of how good they are. It's a good adaptation, I can't really find anything to fault.

I like that they kept most of the good lines, too.

There was one line from the books that Jamie said that GRRM had Sandor say in his books, I thought would be interesting to hear, but they didn't use it. But that was no big deal, the meaning came through.

(About putting book scenes in spoiler tags, not sure that we need to do that once the show has already covered the material.)

(Darn, I keep spelling Jamie like Jaime. :))

[Dr. Pepper]

I thought it was very similar to the books, not note for note, but close. She made a choice, she stayed for Jaime. I've only read the book once and watched the show once, but I thought that was clear.

I see the great love between Jaime and Claire on the show, too. She's afraid to stay, it's a scary choice, and that's understandable. But that she chose to stay with Jaime, even so, speaks volumes.

(About putting book scenes in spoiler tags, not sure that we need to do that once the show has already covered the material.)

I would be interested in getting your input on how the love between the two is shown. I've seen mixed opinions on this but I haven't been convinced yet. I think there is real infatuation there, maybe an early sort of love, but not the sort that justifies completely giving up her previous life. I do accept that I'm missing something, which often happens when passionate love is being portrayed.

I try to think back on Claire's early scene staring at the vase, her desire for a home and how that relates to staying in the 18th century. Was Jamie's description of her potential home just better than the future plans she and Frank had?

About the books, I think technically it's ok, though for myself, I'd prefer to be safe than sorry and give people the choice. There are times when discussing the changes in the scenes might reveal more than a show watcher might want to know or lead to speculating on something they didn't want to speculate about. Or something Spoiler for witch trial and a suggestion for future stuff.

Like Laoghaire being so actively involved in the trial when in the books she merely played the role Thomas played with the note. Even revealing this difference could suggest that it might mean something in the future.

Another reason I prefer to spoiler is because I sort of suck with describing things in a vague way and knowing me, I'll be one of those asshats that end up spoiling major things.

[Le Cygne]

I would be interested in getting your input on how the love between the two is shown. I've seen mixed opinions on this but I haven't been convinced yet. I think there is real infatuation there, maybe an early sort of love, but not the sort that justifies completely giving up her previous life. I do accept that I'm missing something, which often happens when passionate love is being portrayed.

I try to think back on Claire's early scene staring at the vase, her desire for a home and how that relates to staying in the 18th century. Was Jamie's description of her potential home just better than the future plans she and Frank had?

I enjoy and have studied all sorts of classic literature, but have a fondness for romances, classic ones, like North and South, Jane Eyre, and Pride and Prejudice are favorites. Just to share my perspective. But I see this as presented no differently than other romances, or indeed, the way things are in real life.

I think they have shown that there is a connection between Claire and Jamie, the sort that doesn't come along very often. I think sex is the way they express this connection, it's not just physical, there's something very deep going on between them. That's what the author was trying to show, and what I think they've successfully shown on the show, too.

And I don't think love has a timetable, or has to meet certain conditions. Even animals can love. But I think there is something very special between them. And it's there now. As for the home, like Jamie said last time, you are my home now. I think that's what they are both feeling. It's not Lallybroch, home has become Jamie.

[Mladen]

I loved this episode and all its bits. Jaime saving Claire is truly wonderful scene and the way he does it so cool. Like, I want to be that cool. As for the entire aftermath of the Trial, I like how divided she is, and how it is not simply a choice between two men, as Jaime pointed out to her, but for her in a way, it is. I love her "The Lady of the Rings" moments... For some reason, this show is really working for me.

I enjoy and have studied all sorts of classic literature, but have a fondness for romances, classic ones, like North and South, Jane Eyre, and Pride and Prejudice are favorites. Just to share my perspective. But I see this as presented no differently than other romances, or indeed, the way things are in real life.

Long time ago I learned that when it comes to love motif, you are the person I listen. :)

[Le Cygne]

Long time ago I learned that when it comes to love motif, you are the person I listen. :)

Oh, that's sweet! :) I only added that because romance tends to be dismissed, as do those discussing romance.

(Just in general, not talking about this thread...)

[MoIaF]

I really enjoyed the episode, I thought it was very well done. You see the friendship between Claire and Geillis and even though Claire knows what Geillis did, and disapproves of course, there is still a strong bond there. The trial was very well done, I'm from Boston and witch trials are sort of a thing here, so I do enjoy a good one. ;)

It shows through Ned that even highly intelligent people had very "different" sort of beliefs that we know consider ignorant. Like I loved when Ned was talking about the ferries.

I agree with Risto was very cool. There are any flying around a and a bunch of swordsman breaking into a fight trying to rescue the girl. It's a husband who swore to protect his wife, trying to fulfill his promise. It's cool.

I can see why Jamie would believe Claire because he has shown himself to be very accepting of her and pretty much anything she does. However, it would have been good for the show to show Jamie what Claire was talking about. Like have all the wind and leaves swirl around her when she gets near the stone or something.

I loved this episode and all its bits. Jaime saving Claire is truly wonderful scene and the way he does it so cool. Like, I want to be that cool. As for the entire aftermath of the Trial, I like how divided she is, and how it is not simply a choice between two men, as Jaime pointed out to her, but for her in a way, it is. I love her "The Lady of the Rings" moments... For some reason, this show is really working for me.

Long time ago I learned that when it comes to love motif, you are the person I listen. :)

Lady of the Rings love it!

I enjoy and have studied all sorts of classic literature, but have a fondness for romances, classic ones, like North and South, Jane Eyre, and Pride and Prejudice are favorites. Just to share my perspective. But I see this as presented no differently than other romances, or indeed, the way things are in real life.

I think they have shown that there is a connection between Claire and Jamie, the sort that doesn't come along very often. I think sex is the way they express this connection, it's not just physical, there's something very deep going on between them. That's what the author was trying to show, and what I think they've successfully shown on the show, too.

And I don't think love has a timetable, or has to meet certain conditions. Even animals can love. But I think there is something very special between them. And it's there now. As for the home, like Jamie said last time, you are my home now. I think that's what they are both feeling. It's not Lallybroch, home has become Jamie.

I love romance too, and as it so happens those are some of my all time favorite books. Adaptation wise North and South the Richard Armitage version and Jane Eyre the Ruth Wilson and Toby Stephens versions are my favorites.

Regarding Claire and Jamie, I do find their love believable. They have a very physician love for one another but also there is a lot of personal respect and admiration especially from Jamie towards Claire.

[Jack Bauer 24]

Do they explain in the books how Jaime gets to the trial at the exact time Claire is getting strapped?

[Mladen]

I agree with Risto was very cool. There are any flying around a and a bunch of swordsman breaking into a fight trying to rescue the girl. It's a husband who swore to protect his wife, trying to fulfill his promise. It's cool.

I swore an oath before the altar of God to protect this woman! And if you're telling me you consider your authority to be greater than that of the Almighty then I must inform you that I am not of that opinion myself.

That is how you save your lass...

[Dr. Pepper]

I enjoy and have studied all sorts of classic literature, but have a fondness for romances, classic ones, like North and South, Jane Eyre, and Pride and Prejudice are favorites. Just to share my perspective. But I see this as presented no differently than other romances, or indeed, the way things are in real life.

I think they have shown that there is a connection between Claire and Jamie, the sort that doesn't come along very often. I think sex is the way they express this connection, it's not just physical, there's something very deep going on between them. That's what the author was trying to show, and what I think they've successfully shown on the show, too.

And I don't think love has a timetable, or has to meet certain conditions. Even animals can love. But I think there is something very special between them. And it's there now. As for the home, like Jamie said last time, you are my home now. I think that's what they are both feeling. It's not Lallybroch, home has become Jamie.

This is a really good point and frustrating that I have ignored this even though a few pages back I pointed out that the sex scenes were well done as they were like a conversation (at least I think that was on this forum I said this).

I don't have much knowledge of romance in general. It's a genre that I find really difficult to get into and it's something I struggle with. I actually did my thesis in college on the expression of romantic love across cultures, so it's something I've been curious to understand. It just doesn't come naturally to me.

Do they explain in the books how Jaime gets to the trial at the exact time Claire is getting strapped?

I believe it was Murtagh who raced to them. Jamie and Dougal had actually been hunting with the Duke of Sandringham, not banished to Dougal's estate. Murtagh stayed behind, I think to just keep watch over Claire, though not in any sort of guard dog way. More like a beloved family sworn guard.

[The Mother of The Others]

Here you might assume the lawyer guy sent a dispatch to get Jamie at the same time he took off for the trial.

I'm not feeling Claire's great love for this Scottish time period. I'm left wondering why she would choose to stay after she has experienced two near rapes, a kidnapping, a beating and now a witch trial

while comparing rings she realized she's got the deep thing with Jamie that she was trying to rekindle with the other husband. the modern day marriage was sort of misfiring with a more distant vibe while the time-travel relationship is more On. Also, it doesn't have to be a matter of "which husband is currently ahead in points?"---it might just be that both guys are loved now, so she'd not want to leave either one. as for staying in a land with so much personal safety risks.... yeah, that's a stretch. Maybe it's also full of peak experiences? drinking deep the marrow of life. whatevs.

[Veltigar]

This episode was quite good. Not as great as last weeks, because I missed a bit of the adventure side of Outlander (Can't beat a good duel), but still pretty nice. The acting was stellar as always and all the other things Outlander is usually great at were great this episode as well. I completely bought Claire staying with Jaime to be honest. I had no idea that people would feel otherwise. Claire is used to danger (I suspect that a combat nurse had to watch her back as well during WWII), perhaps even a bit addicted to it and I for one completely buy her love for Jaime.

I mean, not only is the guy superhot, good in the sack, caring and considerate, he's also smart, loyal and brave. He saved her from danger half a dozen times, at great risk for his own life. And even though he wanted her to stay, he brought her to the stones so that she could make her own choice. He was also willing to believe her time travel story and don't forget that he swoar that oath to her. To Jaime, he and she are equals. In present day England she would have settled down with Frank and have to become a good house wife while Frank gave his lectures. Here there is a life of adventure, perhaps even a mission to be had. And one final point, she wants to start a family, but it didn't happen with Frank. Perhaps with Jaime she could.

I also liked Jaime believing her time travel story. The man is pretty smart, but he's also a 17th century Highlander. If he can seriously believe in witchcraft, than why wouldn't he believe that his wife is a time traveller. Don't forget that they have songs and tales about people like Claire (in the second episode, the bard sang something about a woman falling through the stones). They also found her in pretty strange circumstances and being from the future would explain some of her attitude, language and knowledge.

Another thing I greatly enjoyed was the vocabulary used in this episode. At first I wanted to give them shit for it, because Geilis using the word barbeque felt so anachronistic, until of course it was revealed that it was meant that way :D Nice bit of writing right there. I also enjoyed the Geilis reveal.

I assumed that she was just a witch, with some knowledge of what happened to Claire, but another time traveller? Holy crap that's a great development. Especially since she deliberatly came over to that period of time. That opens a lot of interesting avenues for this show I'd say. It will probably be quite a while before they use it, but Claire could seek out other times and perhaps even places. I also liked the fact that Geilis came here in order to influence history (although, trying to get Bonny Prince Charles to succeed seems like a waste of effort to me). That's something I always wonder about when timetravel is involved in any property. I hope that Claire will try and influence things herself :) Also, am I the only one who thinks that Geilis isn't dead? I mean we didn't see her burn, so surely she can't be gone? TV rules and all that :)

Now the things I didn't like. Firstly, the fucking voice-over. I know, I'm beating a dead horse with this, but it remains terrible. In fact it was even worse this week, because for once we had a scene where v-o was somewhat okay to use (the poxmark reveal) and they made that scene completely unnecessary by letting Claire explain it to Jaime in the very next scene! At this point, I can only assume that Moore thinks we're all a bit stupid, because I don't understand why it's still there.

I also disliked Claire's answers at the trial. That she stood firm next to Geilis was okay, since that's in characters. However, her answers to the accusations were pretty stupid. I feel like this is the same problem as with episode 9 (with the beating), I feel like the writers dumbed Claire down in order to wrench a narrative out of her mistakes.

The final thing that I didn't like about this episode was Father Bane. When he seemed to be speaking up for Claire, I thought it was a great twist. Usually, priests that get his introduction are relegated to antagonist status. Here we had a nice tropebuster in the fact that the man was proven wrong and decided to make amends by speaking up for Claire. But then we got that stupid evil villain smile and all of a sudden the villagers saw her as a witch because she turned a man of God away from his convictions. That was just inane and seriously less interesting than a priest with genuine remorse.

A gazillion neon signs flashing that Geillis is a time traveler but somehow a barely visible scar across a crowded room was the 'lightening bolt'?

I think the fact that Geilis said she was from 1968 did the trick no?

The actors who play Claire and Jamie keep knocking the ball out of the park.

:agree: As someone who hasn't read the books, I have to say that they are by far the best couple on television.

I'm left wondering why she would choose to stay after she has experienced two near rapes, a kidnapping, a beating and now a witch trial all in close succession. Actually, it seemed unclear that she even made a choice. She seems to want to walk straight through the rocks when they get to the top of the hill, without thinking or second guessing. Then Jamie stops her to say goodbye and suddenly the one time we need voiceovers, we get nothing but silence. Then we have a fade to black when Claire walks towards the rocks again only to have her suddenly reappearing near Jamie. It seemed like a lot of poor filming choices because it looks almost as though Claire stayed simply because she couldn't go through again.

I strongly disagree here. The first time to me it looked like Claire became momentarily lost in the power of the place. When she moved forward, the wind intensified and the music was dramatic and her moving forward felt like the stones power hypnotized her. Voice-over at that moment would have been terrible. Not only would all the dramatic tension seep away, we would have gotten nothing out of it that we didn't know already. The second walk to the stone, at least imo stopped there because it wanted to bring across that Claire was in deep, deep turmoil and had to think long and hard before doing anything?

I loved this episode and all its bits. Jaime saving Claire is truly wonderful scene and the way he does it so cool. Like, I want to be that cool.

I suggest you start wearing a kilt for starters :P

It shows through Ned that even highly intelligent people had very "different" sort of beliefs that we know consider ignorant. Like I loved when Ned was talking about the ferries.

Did Ned necessarily believe in it himself though? He knew how to manipulate that poor excuse for a mother, but I didn't have the impression that he believed anything about the fairie folk. After all he is no Highlander, he's from Edinburgh :)

[MoIaF]

Did Ned necessarily believe in it himself though? He knew how to manipulate that poor excuse for a mother, but I didn't have the impression that he believed anything about the fairie folk. After all he is no Highlander, he's from Edinburgh :)

Now that you say it, it makes sense that he was just playing along, knowing the beliefs of the woman and the people gathered at the "trial".

[Mladen]

Re: sex and love

I kinda think that this show actually reminds us what the sex originally was all about. Or, at least, what most of us have forgotten sex is about. The question we have been asking is whether the relationship can be deep if it is only sexual? But, have we perhaps forgotten that sex is indeed sign of deepness of relationship? With the risk of sounding like a hopeless romantic, but have we actually forgotten that sex is not just a fun pass time?

I mean, one of the greatest strengths of "Outlander" is, as we have talked about, building relationship through the sexual attraction and later intercourse. This is not just yet another romantic story of the girl falling in love with the guy. "Outlander" gives us the wonderful chance to see how relationship is built through sex. Nowadays, we think of sexual relationships in line with "one-night stand" or "venting out". For us, most of us in the modern world, sex is that. We see it sometimes as emotionless fun that is good for venting out our frustrations. But, here, sex itself is deep. Because, let's face it, sex indeed is deep. It is, by far, the deepest and the most intimate physical relationship between two persons and as such, it can't be shallow or superficial. And using that very deep connection to make something even greater is natural step. But, doing that through connecting on all levels, starting from the physical instead of so generic and overdone "one-night stand turning into love". And what is even funnier, this didn't even start with the sex. They met each other, found bits about the other one, and then they dwelt into that.

Yes, sex is part of communication between human beings because it is intimate and private. And "Outlander" perfectly uses it, because it just gives us chance to see that sex itself needs some deepness to actually work.

/idealisticromanticrant

[Elaena Targaryen]

I watched ep12 last night, two things;

Veltigar I was tired but I'm pretty sure there were NO voice-overs. :D

Since others have not watched yet I'll just say, while smh - Oh, Jamie, Jamie, Jamie

[Veltigar]

Veltigar I was tired but I'm pretty sure there were NO voice-overs. :D

:bowdown: :D Now is the winter of our discontent

Made glorious summer by this daughter of Aegon III :cheers:

[Veltigar]

Outlander is currently in a bit of a winning streak it seems. That's the third really good episode in a row :) I liked the new location a lot. Lallybroch looked noticeable different from Castle Leoch. Smaller, warmer and more modern, which fits with Jaime's character imo. I also liked the new characters, in particular Ian.

Jaime's sister was also nice (despite the fact that she called Claire a trollop... Them's fightin' words), although occassionally I got a weird anachronistic vibe from the actress. It's not as bad as Ben Robson's Kalf on Vikings, but I hope the feeling goes away, because I imagine she'll be quite an important character going forward. That being said, I hope we'll soon return to Castle Leoch. The characters might not like it, but right now, that's their real home. The place around which everything revolves.

I would also like some more backstory on Black Jack. Like, he's definitely a hardcore sadist, but I wonder if he has some more motivation for his evil ways. So far, he has been a great onedimensional villain, but to really become part of the big boys I would like some more backstory on how he came to serve in the Highlands. I also appreciated the British officer at the mill. It's good to see that not all British soldiers were asshats. It's good to get the occasional reminder, especially when Black Jack's attrocities feature quite prominently in the episode.

One big question I had: Who were those guys at the end of the episode? Was the abbusive father one of them? Or are these new characters? (possible members of the Watch)?

Veltigar I was tired but I'm pretty sure there were NO voice-overs. :D

This show is so much better without those shitty voice-overs. A really good episode imo :)