Tyrion UNDENIABLY raped the Sunset Girl

[Kyoshi]

I think Westeros/Essos may be out of the FBI's jurisdiction.

I honestly don't know what to say about topics like these. By todays standards, yes, clearly rape, chuck him behind bars, judge. Case closed! Oh and while we're at it, lets just close the brothel, oh and lets abolish slavery, oh and what's that? You're carrying a halberd?!?! In public?!!? No, i'm sorry, that's illegal.

This is Planetos, he went into a whore house and shagged a prostitute who didn't appreciate his less than comely appearance and was visibly disgusted by him.

Planetos has a definition for rape. They even acknowledge it is a crime:

• Some of the criminals sent to the Wall are labelled "rapers."
• Dany begs Drogo to stop his men from continuing the rape of the Lazhareen (sp) women
• Yoren tells Arya half the people would hand her over to the queen in a second, the other half would rape her first.
• Theon punishes some of his men for raping that girl in WF.
• Stannis hangs a couple of rapers.
• Jaime beheads Pretty Pia's rapist and hands her his head.
• Randyll Tarly threatens Brienne with rape.

Rape is definitely not a modern concept. This may seem like nitpicking to you but to equate it [along with such an injustice as slavery] to something as simple as carrying a halberd in public is both ridiculous and insensitive. Medieval law leaned more on the misogynistic side than its modern counterpart; however, that does not make the crime any less despicable simply because it happened in a barbaric time.

[Sennln]

don't mention it, apparently I could have been more clear. I just don't see how people can say these two instances aren't rape. Let's look at it logically, for the detractors:

when Tyrion thought she was a prostitute who received a silver coin for every man Tywin had fuck get, plus a gold coin for Tyrion, Tyrion still considered it rape. Why would it then not be rape when we learn that she wasn't even a sex worker? Some people just confuse the hell out of me.

The Tysha incident was one of the cruelest things that happened in asoiaf but as some others pointed out, I´m not sure with the idea of calling Tyrion a rapist for that as he himself also seemed to have been forced into it. Of course we don´t have a POV of that situation but tbh I don´t want to read one.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

The Tysha incident was one of the cruelest things that happened in asoiaf but as some others pointed out, I´m not sure with the idea of calling Tyrion a rapist for that as he himself also seemed to have been forced into it. Of course we don´t have a POV of that situation but tbh I don´t want to read one.

right, I understand that. My point is that with the second rape, it's the exact same thing but with Tyrion's consent, the woman's lack of consent, and the woman actually being a sex worker.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

I agree it is rape, but I have to play the devil's advocate here, and bring up a discussion that I think deserves it's place in this thread:

If Tyrion raped the Sunset Girl, Daenerys murdered the 163 slavers.

It is the same logic. They're slavers! Still murder. I don't think I need to give you the Oxford meaning of murder. They killed the little slaves! Well, the Sunset girl, in theory, gets paid(with food, a place to sleep, and protection(I know it isn't enough, and I am not defending it(I do not condone slavery, violence, rape, or whatever crime. This should be an unnecessary disclaimer, but still))) to be raped.

The Sunset Girl is a slave. She would be paid with food, a place to sleep, and protection even if, for example, she was a dancer or even a willing mistress.

[Woman of War]

Tywin raped Tyrion and Tysha? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Tyrion can honestly say "I was raped by my father!"? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Yes, indeed

In my country a person who forces a 13 year old child into unwanted sexual activity is punished like a a rapist who does the deed himself. That heavy kind of of child abuse is as serious as crime as doing the rape himself, no actual penetration by Tywin required, neither in Tysha's nor in Tyrion's case. If an adult does that to children he (or she) is punished like a rapist by law.

And the excuse that Tyrion had a boner does not count since in that case every abuser of a male child would walk free if that child has an erection durnig the abuse.

In our modern times we should be aware that male children can be just as much victims of sexual abuse as female children.

[horizon]

People who deny (do they exist) need to accept that even the witty and sometimes funny Tyrion is not always a good guy, he can even be considered an evil dude at times. And yes he raped in both occassions.

edit: yes, in above case Tywin is guilty as charged.

[Salafi Stannis]

Yes, indeed

In my country a person who forces a 13 year old child into unwanted sexual activity is punished like a a rapist who does the deed himself. That heavy kind of of child abuse is as serious as crime as doing the rape himself, no actual penetration by Tywin required, neither in Tysha's nor in Tyrion's case. If an adult does that to children he (or she) is punished like a rapist by law.

And the excuse that Tyrion had a boner does not count since in that case every abuser of a male child would walk free if that child has an erection durnig the abuse.

In our modern times we should be aware that male children can be just as much victims of sexual abuse as female children.

Read my posts before you respond to me, every definition of rape I had come across of the time of that post, Oxford, the FBI, defined it as penetration committed by the rapist. Then, afterwards I saw the Cambridge definition, which corresponds with yours and admitted I was wrong.

[Sennln]

Read my posts before you respond to me, every definition of rape I had come across of the time of that post defined it as penetration committed by the rapist. Then, afterwards I saw the Cambridge definition, which corresponds with yours and admitted I was wrong.

We´re on the internet. You can´t just admit that you were wrong. That´s against the rules ;)

[kn1tt3r]

Maybe he did. So what?

[Salafi Stannis]

We´re on the internet. You can´t just admit that you were wrong. That´s against the rules ;)

The ASoIaF forums are of a higher standard :)

[Woman of War]

There's no evidence that all prostitutes in Westeros are whipped if they refuse a client, and it's also very unlikely. There are all sorts of different brothels, and also lots of prostitutes who are working on their own. Littlefinger definitely engages in trafficking, including very underage girls and probably boys; that's sex slavery in everything but name. But for instance, I don't think Chataya is whipping anyone or forcing them into anything. We may say that economic and social circumstances are forcing most of Westerosi prostitutes into prostitution, but it's not exactly the same thing. And then, we see that, for instance, the Queen of Whores or Hildy (?) are quite content and proud of their job; Shae also sees it as good job, much preferred to working in kitchens, especially if she can find a client of high status. A lot of them don't even have a pimp or a madam, for instance "camp followers".The wide spread prostitution in Westeros is a sad fact, but the moral outrage and condemnation of the institution fails to take into account the context: for women of lower classes, prostitution may provide more freedom, independence (if they are not working for a pimp, especially not in a brothel like LF's) and financial support than most other jobs available to them. If, for instance, they are working the kitchens or doing some other low-paid job for unskilled female workers, they may very likely have to endure sexual abuse by their bosses and other men of a higher social position in order to retain the job where they are getting less money than a prostitute does. So, when someone like Stannis tries to ban prostitution for moral reasons, he is not actually doing it out of a wish to better the position of women and commoners; what is really needed is a society-wide change where women would be allowed more job opportunities, financial independence, sexual agency, and social position in general, and then they wouldn't have to resort to prostitution. By simply banning prostitution, he would not make a real stop to it, just make things worse for women from lower classes, and there would just be a lot of hidden prostitution and lots of women doing low paid jobs and getting sexually harassed and abused without even being able to turn it into a straight-up monetary transaction.BTW, here's an interesting in-depth essay on the prostitution in Westeros and the courtesans of Braavos: http://madeinmyr.wordpress.com/2014/10/13/the-courtesans-aura/

I agree with most of what you wrote here (who would have thought ;) ), especially with the political implication that banning prostitution gets the women (or male sex workers) concerned nowhere, being either naive or an act of hypocrite fundamentalist prudery. On the contrary, it prevents sex workers from claiming their rights against brutal clients and pimps or madams. The law should protect the prostitutes and their independence, not condemn them.

But, as you know, I simply do not care if Tyrion is labelled a rapist in the case of the Selhoris prostitute because labelling gets the debate nowhere. On the contrary, it prevents a quality debate. He did something horribly ugly, it would have been just as ugly done in Westeros, and he knew what he did, this is what Martin wants to tell us, the low level Tyrion has sunk to.

Feeling the importance of having to use the label "rapist" instead of analysing why Martin wanted Tyrion to sink so low is only a different way of saying "I don't like Tyrion and I need a reason beyond doubt for it, because everyone who dares questioning that reason unveils him- or herself as misogynist", the argument meant to end all agumentation.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's why I said is like a gamble. You cannot know whether the woman you're having sex with is there on her own will or she has been kidnapped as a child and forced into prostitution. And that applies even in our modern world. Now, personally, I don't have any experience with prostitutes, but my (male) friends have. I know they don't go around asking them about their lives and how they got into the business. They simply don't care about them as people, sadly. It's all business: "you get money, I get sex". That doesn't make my friends rapists nor anything like it.

About Tyrion, he got into quite a difficult and particular situation. It's not like the girl could have been ok if Tyrion looked like Jaime, but I suppose his general looks did play a part in her repulsion. And also, he had sex with this girl while being an asshole (he had been one for the most part of Dance, tbh), which made everything worst.

[Woman of War]

Read my posts before you respond to me, every definition of rape I had come across of the time of that post, Oxford, the FBI, defined it as penetration committed by the rapist. Then, afterwards I saw the Cambridge definition, which corresponds with yours and admitted I was wrong.

Thank you , it is very fair of you telling me this. I for sure have been wrong quite often as well. I answered too hastily straightaway since I have sons and get really angry if I think people belittle sexual abuse of male children. Sorry.

[Salafi Stannis]

Tywin raped Tyrion and Tysha? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Tyrion can honestly say "I was raped by my father!"? :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

EDIT - According to the Cambridge dictionary, penetration is not required pm the part of the rapist to make it rape, thus I apologise and was wrong. However, there was room for error, as up to the point which posted this thread, every definition which I had read, Oxford, the FBI, said that there must be penetration on the part of the rapist, not saying I wasn't wrong, but it just wasn't the easiest thing to get right.

[unitron]

So, how many of you liked Tyrion just fine right up to the point where he walked into the brothel in Selhorys?

How many of you liked him just fine right up to the point where he was forced to marry Sansa?

[Woman of War]

So, ok. He raped the girl.

Then what? Do we hate Tyrion? If GRRM portrays him favourable in the next too books we burn them? We twitt that the books are misogynistic?

Because, personally, I haven't stopped liking Tyrion one bit in Dance. The point of his arc, whether people like it or not, is that he was a broken man. Yeah, say anything about the despicable things he did before, but the thing is that he was going to be killed just because he was a dwarf and they took the chance to (finally!) get rid of him, despite he was capable, smart and definitely better heir than Cersei and Jaime. He was broken in Dance, he hated himself and did many things, just like Septon Meribald said, just like Ned said about the Deserters of the Watch.

I think this is one of the cases when I believe that GRRM is (in a way) testing us about how we react with Tyrion's behaviour. It's easy to say "yeah, let's hate him! because he did X" instead of being more understanding about his actions. Tyrion is definitely neither the Mountain nor Ramsay: he was broken since he was born, knowing all his life he was an abomination that killed his own mother and was treated as such, and those he trusted proved him wrong (Jaime, for instance). If we choose to believe he has no way to redeem himself and improve, we're falling on the trap GRRM is setting us for us with the narrative.

I so much agree

Martin is playing with us readers here.

Every good fiction is manipulation, otherwise it weren't good.

Martin delivers a study in how far he can take his readers into there and back again, how much they are willing to stay awake and watchful and to constantly question their own judgement.

Tyrion abuses that prostitute

Dany crucifies slavers

Arya becomes a hitwoman

Jon will no doubt do x

Sansa betrays Daddy and sister and might do x

Wait for Davos and Brienne to do x

And the other way round with Theon and Jaime

All the fan favorites will have to walk through dire moral circumstances and we will see what this makes of us as fans. Shall we spit dirt on fictional characters or real existing fellow posters or stay reasonable?

[Amris]

On the Cersei thread, people were claiming Tyrion did not, in fact, rape the Sunset Girl at Selhorys. I just :bang: :bang: at this notion.

First, what does it mean to rape someone? Oxford:

Rape is sex without consent (note that Oxford defines rape as a noun is a crime, but since there are no codified anti-rape laws in Westeros or Volantis this doesn't really apply).

SoThe poor girl is repulsed by Tyrion. It's pretty apparent that she does not want to have sex with this "offensive creature".

She's not "lively" because she's being forced into the intercourse, which is "required of her".

Given what we know of the treatment of slaves in Volantis, she'll probably be whipped if she refuses to be raped. So this is not consensual sex.

Even Tyrion, who at this point is a wretched creature engulfed in self-pity and hatred, feels guilty, and probably realizes that this is rape:

But finally, Tyrion rapes her again:

Then the Sunset Girl runs away.

This was clearly rape.

Q&A

Q. But she was a prostitute!

A. Prostitutes can be raped.

And besides, she was a slave. She was forced to have sex with hundreds of men, and gained nothing from it. All the money went to her master.

Q. But it wasn't illegal!

A. In some traditional societies, gang rape is an accepted punishment. That doesn't mean those women are not being raped. Again, rape is sex without consent.

It hinges on under which law you want to judge the case?

If you judge it under the law of Pentos we have the problem that we don't know said law. So it's hard to really make a case. I would wager that slaves are viewed as objects under the law in Pentos and that objects by definition cannot be raped. As stated this has the HUGE caveat that we don't know the law of Pentos and really are shooting nearly totally blind.

If you want to judge the case under modern - earth - law then we first have to determine which one? There are 193 countries on earth, all with their own criminal law and some of those laws are pretty different from each other. Under German law what Tyrion did could be constructed as rape, yes - but a defensive lawyer would have some good arguments against it too. Nevertheless I am pretty sure the case would go nowhere because of the problem of jurisdiction. I cannot see any real life state having jurisdiction over this case so the question whether Tyrion commited rape really is pointless when viewed under the angle of law.

If the intent of your post is not to view this case under the law but rather question Tyrion's ethics and morality you are welcome to it. I think we all agree that Tyrion's behaviour is highly questionable (to put it mildly) at times.

[Lord Freypie]

It hinges on under which law you want to judge the case?

Law isn't really important, as Tyrion himself certainly felt he did something morally wrong.

Then the question is should the heavily emotionally charged in modern people minds words "rape" and "rapist" be used, instead of say "active complicit of slavery", or whatever. And is Tyrion the most guilty one, or the men who enslave and force 14 year olds into prostitution.

Long time ago, I was arguing against their use, as I was first shocked coming to this board by the way they were used to justify displays of extreme Tyrion hate (often borderline with dwarfism, ugliness and child abuse issues), but after reflexion as it seems to hurt many people a lot if you don't insist to call that rape and that the client was the first guilty, and their feelings are certainly more important than the defense of some fictionnal character, I'm ok with it.

Doesn't really change that the important thing for the narrative is the way Tyrion sees his own behavior himself, and how he (hopefully) start to rebound from that lowest point, starting with the extreme self-loathing he shows in this scene (unlike with Illyrio's servant where he only seems happy to add to her misery).

[DamoDega]

And again peoples try to push 2014 murrica/europe into asoiaf

2nd reply nailed it

"unitron, on 25 Oct 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

[Tyrion] had gone into a brothel in Selhorys (the one where Mormont takes him prisoner) where he paid actual money for a prostitute.

To him, as a product of his world and his upbringing in it, that would not be rape."

He's taking advantage of the slavery situation? No doubt

He feel guilty and realize the wrong of the act? Yes

He consider it rape? Of course not

I can just hope GRRM keep his way and never realize what kind of audience he have

If you can deal with coherent narrative welcome to the book

If not go TV show only, there you can find all the 2014 audience blowjobs is possible imagine

[Chebyshov]

So, how many of you liked Tyrion just fine right up to the point where he walked into the brothel in Selhorys?

How many of you liked him just fine right up to the point where he was forced to marry Sansa?

You're being reductive about any complaints levied against him. The point of this thread is that we need to stop dancing away from the word "rape" because this situation with the slave is an incontrovertible case of it. Is it the totality of his character? No. Is it in line with his dark turn? Yes. Is his treatment of Sansa in line with how he's always approached life? Yes. Let's just please stop pretending it's not rape because we don't want to say it. As JCRB has been saying, "so what? He raped her, yes, but what are we supposed to learn from this and think of his characterization?" That's where there should be disagreement, not about the label of the act itself.

As for your question, Tyrion is an amazingly well-written character, but it's a character I personally find deeply problematic. On my first read, I liked him, though I was troubled by his dark turn in ASOS, especially killing a prostitute because he fooled himself into thinking she had projected feelings for him. Most of his ADWD actions I chalked up to PTSD, but I was disappointed and disgusted with him. Then I began my reread, and with an understanding of where Tyrion's story was going, I was able to look at his character more objectively.

Once I was able to divorce myself from his own bullshit narrative, a narrative I think you still accept because you accused everyone who dislikes him for having those feelings due to his appearance (something I've NEVER seen any poster ever argue), I was able to see just how selfish, entitled, and sexist he is...from the start. I found myself inexplicably annoyed with him (and this was a character I really liked before) as I revisited his chapters, especially how self-congratulatory he is for actions that don't merit it, and how he disallows himself any kind of self-reflection because any charge levied against him he chalks up to his dwarfism. He's had a shit life, and being a dwarf in Westeros is no Swiss picnic, I get it, seriously. But his lack of introspection allows him to rationalize away problematic decisions, and then at the same time act as the victim of situations that were his own creation.

Like his marriage to Sansa. The reason I wrote what I did about his marriage to her is because for me, that was the moment where I realized that Tryion isn't a character I like. I was becoming increasingly disillusioned with his character all through this reread, and when I got to this point again in ASOS, I stopped even trying to fight my disgust I felt with his character. But to say that "oh, I liked him fine and them BOOM. Marriage to Sansa, he sucks, k'bye" is completely inaccurate. It's more that his complete disregard for her person and self-pitying in a situation of his making highlighted the reasons why I don't like him and the aspects of his characterization that I find most problematic.

These are just my reasons for my personal feelings about Tyrion. He's a fantastically scripted character, and one who's great to study. I definitely pity him, as I said before, because he has had a really difficult life. But my dislike for his character is not based on single actions, nor is it based on scant readings. Stop trying to paint Tyrion "hate" with a broad brush. Stop trying to suggest that Tyrion "hate" is based on shallow reasons. And for the love of God, everyone, stop trying to say Tyrion didn't commit rape.