[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

[Moondancer]

(...) but the fact that Rhaegar took six men with the only purpose of meeting with Lyanna, that I don't believe. It doesn't sound very logical.

For a delicate, private affair, it is very much logical.

A side note, six companions and Rhaegar as the seventh... :) (Nothing can fail when the gods are with you... Right? Right?)

[Alia of the knife]

In terms of the "Pact of Ice and Fire," I can't help but think of this as the true daughter of Winterfell. :D

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Felsafrozen.tk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fthe-frozen-princess-3.jpeg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Felsafrozen.tk%2Fthe-frozen-princess%2Fthe-frozen-princess-3%2F&h=536&w=500&tbnid=ScdvPbzN5f1-yM%3A&zoom=1&docid=YH2cOxwTA_LipM&ei=JpxTVO6ZAbOUsQT-74GoBg&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CCAQMygCMAI&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=2586&page=1&start=0&ndsp=20

[Alia of the knife]

Going back to JonCon.

Despite Jons sexualtiy, this was a time of cold hard pragmatism, and he, a long with Renly, and even Loras, would have understood the absolute necessity of the continuation of their bloodline and consolidation of land, wealth and power.

This was the currency of the time, and if these men had to visit their wives beds but once in a blue moon to get an heir on her, they would, because to be fair, men didn't have choices in this time period either.

So, in this context, when Jon refers to Elia as not being "worthy" of Rhaegar, he is probably speaking from the standpoint of jealousy, though that may be a factor, or about Rhaegar personally, but from the standpoint of the expectations placed upon her for the continuation of the succession.

In this time period, both the "persons" of Rhaegar and Elia were property of the Kingdom, and thier ability to secure the succession, particularly Elias questionable fecundity would be a matter of great concern and speculation, so I think this is another example of putting the blame on Elia for Rhaegars actions.

Rhaegar was the golden boy of Westeros, and Elia a "foreigner," (and Lyanna would likely be seen similarly so far removed was the North politically at this time), so it becomes popular to blame her and we see it throughout the story.

Elia's heatlh was always delictate.

If only Dany had been born earlier.

If only Viserys had been born a girl.

It only Aerys had signed off on marrying Rhaegar to Cersei, she could have given him all the sons he wanted and not looked twice at the wolf girl.

Elia was never worthy of Rhaegar

If only and etcetera....

I also tend think that Selmys mud analogy is as much about Rhaegar being drawn to Lyanna, (another irony), as it was about Dany being drawn to Daario,(parallel alert), and rejecting good old reliable Quintyn, or Ashara speculativley being drawn to Brandon Stark rather than Ned.

As GRRM confirmed, Rhaegar did not return Joncons feelings, and I'm sure Joncon realized that, so while he may have still loved him, I think he still wanted to be a good friend, and good friends don't let friends "kidnap" maidens because it won't end well.

But, determined Rhaegar may have rejected his friends advice, and they parted ways.

[PrettyPig]

Yet in Ned's dream, Gerold Hightower laments that they were not at the Trident to keep Aerys on his throne. They knew better than anyone that he was a madman but Ned seems to think he was the madman they had sworn vows to. Being sorry for not keeping Aerys on his throne doesn't fall in line with any reasoning that he was no longer their king, in their hearts at least. And if he was their king, his choice of heir was the valid one.

Come to think of it, it's interesting that none of them shows any regret over Rhaegar's death. For people who were supposedly so fond of him, they don't seem to care that their friend and bright hope for the future had died. It would be natural for them to say, If we were at the Trident, Rhaegar would still be alive. But they didn't. They only spoke of Aerys and duty, and how they did not flee.

By the time of Rhaegar's death, they might have been quite disenchanted with him but of course, their duty, whatever it was, wouldn't let them flee, no matter their personal feelings.

In addition, there is Jaime's comment to Catelyn of "After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

I always found this passage interesting because if you take it literally in context of the conversation, it implies that Hightower was loyal to Aerys until the end. If you take it with Jaime's typical dose of sarcasm and derision, it implies that Hightower might not have been that loyal after all.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

A side note, six companions and Rhaegar as the seventh... :) (Nothing can fail when the gods are with you... Right? Right?)

definitely. Ask Arianne...

[Alia of the knife]

:)

On Valaryan wedding rites vs. the Faith, and Donal "effing" Logue. :P

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DU90DvF4Xm6A&ei=m7BTVLSwEbS1sQSk44GoDg&usg=AFQjCNFsySFxu_UX14GUANQ52dMMNeWvTw&bvm=bv.78677474,d.cWc&cad=rja

[BearQueen87]

In addition, there is Jaime's comment to Catelyn of "After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

I always found this passage interesting because if you take it literally in context of the conversation, it implies that Hightower was loyal to Aerys until the end. If you take it with Jaime's typical dose of sarcasm and derision, it implies that Hightower might not have been that loyal after all.

Whatever was going on with Rhaegar, his companions, and various KG, I don't think Jaime knew about it. So I think Jaime's remark to Cat is supposed to be Jaime believing that Hightower was loyal to Aerys until the end.

Now, whether there is something outside of Jaime's perspective that he's not aware of and this line will be ironic later, maybe. But from Jaime's POV, Hightower really was loyal to the end.

FWIW, I think the White Bull was loyal given Ned's dream and how is subconscious remembers Hightower.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Whatever was going on with Rhaegar, his companions, and various KG, I don't think Jaime knew about it.

Neither Barristan... because they survived :/

[Frey family reunion]

Whatever was going on with Rhaegar, his companions, and various KG, I don't think Jaime knew about it. So I think Jaime's remark to Cat is supposed to be Jaime believing that Hightower was loyal to Aerys until the end.

Now, whether there is something outside of Jaime's perspective that he's not aware of and this line will be ironic later, maybe. But from Jaime's POV, Hightower really was loyal to the end.

FWIW, I think the White Bull was loyal given Ned's dream and how is subconscious remembers Hightower.

Well at the most he was loyal to Rhaegar or perhaps Rhaegar's (illegitimate?) son, but I don't see how he was loyal to Aerys.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well at the most he was loyal to Rhaegar or perhaps Rhaegar's (illegitimate?) son, but I don't see how he was loyal to Aerys.

Well, the reason why it seems pretty clear that Hightower remained loyal to Aerys is the following statement he made to Ned when asked where the KG were when Jaime killed Aerys:

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

[RumHam]

Well, the reason why it seems pretty clear that Hightower remained loyal to Aerys is the following statement he made to Ned when asked where the KG were when Jaime killed Aerys:

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

I dunno that that indicates he was loyal to Aerys over Rhaegar. I think he was just really bothered by the kid he welcomed into the order killing their king. I'm sure Rhaegar's plan involved no harm coming to Aerys, just to remove him from power in all but name. That's what made it so hard. If Rhaegar were less noble he could have just had him killed.

[Avalatis]

There is no evidence to support this; perhaps when Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar he delivered more information than just "return we need you for the war".

1.) Why did Hightower stay and not return with Rhaegar? Even if Lyanna and him got married and Jon is legitimate he had 2 Kingsguard already protecting the tower. High tower would have saw it as his duty to return to Aerys or follow Rhaegar to the trident.

2.) Why does Rhaegar sound so confident that things were going to change when he got back from the Trident? He had been missing for a year and probably had more than half the realm stacked against him, yet he seemed to think he was going to some how change things.

I speculate that Aerys might have had a moment of lucid thought. Not all madness is consistent, and when he came into a breif period of sanity he realized he needed to abdicate the throne and he needed Rhaegar to be king. Thus he told Hightower to deliver to Rhaegar the message that he should assume the role as King and that he was needed to save the realm. Hightower arrives at the ToJ and informs Rhaegar that Aerys was going to abdicate the throne for him. Rhaegar orders Hightower to stay with the other Kingsguards to protect his pregnant wife until she gives birth. Which is now an order from his King (thus he does not return).

Rhaegar returns and assumes control of the army and tells his father who is slipping back into his madness again to send for Tywin. Aerys does as he is asked. When Rhaegar dies on the Trident Aerys has lost it again. He doesn't trust Dorne or Elia and names Viserys heir. Hightower would know that Rhaegar had already been named king by Aerys thus wouldn't accept the new line of succession (as Rhaegar's children came first). After the sack of King's Landing the next in line would be Jon.

I imaigne there are a few holes in this theory. But I figured I would throw it out as it might explain some of the inconsistencies in Hightower.

[Alia of the knife]

Didn't GRRM confirm that Rhaegar ordered him to stay?

[Avalatis]

Didn't GRRM confirm that Rhaegar ordered him to stay?

I haven't heard that if he did. But from early posts in this thread it sounds like only the King orders the Kingsguard. With a war going on I'm not certain Hightower would accept an order from a prince unless Aerys told him to do whatever Rhaegar wanted.

[Ser Creighton]

In terms of the "Pact of Ice and Fire," I can't help but think of this as the true daughter of Winterfell. :D

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Felsafrozen.tk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fthe-frozen-princess-3.jpeg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Felsafrozen.tk%2Fthe-frozen-princess%2Fthe-frozen-princess-3%2F&h=536&w=500&tbnid=ScdvPbzN5f1-yM%3A&zoom=1&docid=YH2cOxwTA_LipM&ei=JpxTVO6ZAbOUsQT-74GoBg&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CCAQMygCMAI&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=2586&page=1&start=0&ndsp=20

Ahh the true mother of the Others. Let it snow, let it snow la la la. His hair is long and his eyes are grey, let the Others march on, the cold never bothered Jon anyway.

[IceFire125]

There is no evidence to support this; perhaps when Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar he delivered more information than just "return we need you for the war".

1.) Why did Hightower stay and not return with Rhaegar? Even if Lyanna and him got married and Jon is legitimate he had 2 Kingsguard already protecting the tower. High tower would have saw it as his duty to return to Aerys or follow Rhaegar to the trident.

2.) Why does Rhaegar sound so confident that things were going to change when he got back from the Trident? He had been missing for a year and probably had more than half the realm stacked against him, yet he seemed to think he was going to some how change things.

I speculate that Aerys might have had a moment of lucid thought. Not all madness is consistent, and when he came into a breif period of sanity he realized he needed to abdicate the throne and he needed Rhaegar to be king. Thus he told Hightower to deliver to Rhaegar the message that he should assume the role as King and that he was needed to save the realm. Hightower arrives at the ToJ and informs Rhaegar that Aerys was going to abdicate the throne for him. Rhaegar orders Hightower to stay with the other Kingsguards to protect his pregnant wife until she gives birth. Which is now an order from his King (thus he does not return).

Rhaegar returns and assumes control of the army and tells his father who is slipping back into his madness again to send for Tywin. Aerys does as he is asked. When Rhaegar dies on the Trident Aerys has lost it again. He doesn't trust Dorne or Elia and names Viserys heir. Hightower would know that Rhaegar had already been named king by Aerys thus wouldn't accept the new line of succession (as Rhaegar's children came first). After the sack of King's Landing the next in line would be Jon.

I imaigne there are a few holes in this theory. But I figured I would throw it out as it might explain some of the inconsistencies in Hightower.

There's a few of us here in this forum that believe in this line of thoughts, like you.

I'm of the opinion that Aerys saw the royal army in dire need of a morale boost, from their favorite commander, the crown prince. It was also a desperate time, and I believe Rhaegar did communicated with Aerys at least once, wanting his marriage document with Lyanna, which was in secret, to be legitimized by Aerys and signed with his seal. Until it was signed, Rhaegar will not lead the royal army.

Aerys signed the document and have Hightower search for Rhaegar. Maybe out of Aerys' desperation, he didn't have the foresight to command Hightower to return with Rhaegar. Knowing that Hightower was not asked to return, Rhaegar, with his document to legitimized his marriage with Lyanna in his hand, ordered Hightower to stay and guard Lyanna and their soon child to come.

News of the Trident and shortly, the sack at KL and Prince Aegon's demised reached the tower via Starfall (Ashara), Lyanna then gave birth to a male child. By-the-book, LC Hightower proclaimed that this child (Jon) is now the true heir to throne. There was no need to go to Dragonstone to protect Prince Viserys.

[Avalatis]

There's a few of us here in this forum that believe in this line of thoughts, like you.

I'm of the opinion that Aerys saw the royal army in dire need of a morale boost, from their favorite commander, the crown prince. It was also a desperate time, and I believe Rhaegar did communicated with Aerys at least once, wanting his marriage document with Lyanna, which was in secret, to be legitimized by Aerys and signed with his seal. Until it was signed, Rhaegar will not lead the royal army.

Aerys signed the document and have Hightower search for Rhaegar. Maybe out of Aerys' desperation, he didn't have the foresight to command Hightower to return with Rhaegar. Knowing that Hightower was not asked to return, Rhaegar, with his document to legitimized his marriage with Lyanna in his hand, ordered Hightower to stay and guard Lyanna and their soon child to come.

News of the Trident and shortly, the sack at KL and Prince Aegon's demised reached the tower via Starfall (Ashara), Lyanna then gave birth to a male child. By-the-book, LC Hightower proclaimed that this child (Jon) is now the true heir to throne. There was no need to go to Dragonstone to protect Prince Viserys.

So would you assume that Hightower and the other Kingsguard did not receive word that Aerys had named Viserys heir after Rhaegar died? Or did they choose to ignore it?

[Ser Creighton]

So now that the book has come out, anyone want to fill me in on what's trending with this particular theory. I have the book (hard cover). I am having a little problem with the Aery II section because a lot of it is based off what Pycelle wrote to the Citadel and he has a heavy bias. So I am not really sure what to think so looking for some of the basic new theories that may have popped up in the last few days.

[BearQueen87]

So now that the book has come out, anyone want to fill me in on what's trending with this particular theory. I have the book (hard cover). I am having a little problem with the Aery II section because a lot of it is based off what Pycelle wrote to the Citadel and he has a heavy bias. So I am not really sure what to think so looking for some of the basic new theories that may have popped up in the last few days.

Let's see. Off the top of my head

1) The 6 companions Rhaegar set out with were : Dayne, Whent, KG Martell, JonCon, Lonmonth, and Mooton. I think many of us think they eventually split up for different reasons but when they set out, it was with a plan in mind in regards to Aerys.

2) Rhaegar comes across as far more politically savvy than what we were led to believe prior to the world book. (or, at least, not only obsessed with prophecy)

3) Rhaegar was probably the "shadow" organizer at HH

4) And, as always, the marriage of R and L got one more go around, with neither side really budging. The (aborted) Pact of Ice and Fire made a lot of ears perk up, though. As did the secret elopement of Jaehaerys II and his sister, with Egg not dissolving it because of consummation

[Ser Creighton]

So would you assume that Hightower and the other Kingsguard did not receive word that Aerys had named Viserys heir after Rhaegar died? Or did they choose to ignore it?

You sure Pycelle is telling the truth about that. That could be information from him and he is going to write what he wants people to think. Vis has never mentioned supplanting his brother so it would appear that information never passed down to him. Not to say it didn't happen but rather be careful with the unreliable narrator. Not only did Rhaegar return, but it does not appear he struck any deal to supplant his father after the war, nor does it appear Jaime heard anything about Vis.

In fact it seems to me by his actions Rhaegar when he returned was showing loyalty to his father. Now of course this could of been blackmail as Aerys did have his wife and kids and it's clear from Jaime he did not want them dead. Just because this new book is out does not mean it's all that accurate we clearly know a lot of falsehoods exist. In fact the Pycelle letters open with Tywin would never eat from another mans pate which draws into question the validity of what is being written early on. We know for a fact that not only would Tywin eat from another plate but old boy took Tyrions Shea pie right off his plate after Tyrion had been dinning on it for many moons and dove in face first. Which is both depraved and draws into question both Tywin' nature and the truth of the Pycelle letters.

Don't discount what we already know from the books, unreliable narration is just that and it does need to be looked at with a critical eye. Jumping to conclusions by anyone does not serve the advancement of any theory, weather you are for or against it.