Bakker XXXI: What Comes After

[Sci-2]

I agree with some of that. I think Moenghus was supposed to be the culmination of the Dunyain breeding program, but having screwed up by choosing the Cishaurim he called on his son to help him. My guess is that someone manipulated the Dunyain into sending Moenghus out, he didn't leave because of that stupid Sranc story - which has been debunked anyway. But when it comes to the Dunyain mission, I would make a distinction between the intentions of whoever sent the Dunyain to Ishual and the Dunyain generations that came after that. Even though Dunyain like Kellhus might think that their mission is to reach the Absolute, the actual purpose (as envisioned by whoever sent them to Ishual, and brought Moenghus out) might have had more to do with the Second Apocalypse than the Absolute.

Hmmmm...who would manipulate the Dunyain from the outside? The World? God? Seswatha via the dreams? Bakker does suggest the possibility that dreams collapse space and time, though one could also read that passage where young Nau-Cayuti asks about Mimara as Akka's subconscious interfering with the dream.

Yea, I've seen Lockesnow theory on this yesterday, It just struck me that Kellhus had no thought of killing Moe in the prologue. It was almost as if he was longing to see his father. I feel that if someone is being manipulated, it was probably Moe and Kellhus. Its all so ambiguous that you can draw a number of theories at to what's really going on.

Who do you think is manipulating Big Moe and Kellhus? I do think the World has either long ago fated Kellhus to leave Ishual OR is an active agent manipulating events in the present to ensure his ascension to Aspect Emperor.

There may also be "joints" as Bakker puts it, where a person who knows how to read the world and see what might happen if certain choices are made. The D&D Eberron setting used the Draconic Prophecy in that way - I think the creator even described it as akin to a program's if-then statements. So Big Moe might've been able to look at the world with the Cish's Third Sight and use that for the TTT. Perhaps he even saw all the way to Serwa & Lil' Moe going to Isteberenith (sp?) with Sorwell.

[sologdin]

Isteberenith (sp?)

you're not fooling anyone there, fella!

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Hmmmm...who would manipulate the Dunyain from the outside? The World? God? Seswatha via the dreams? Bakker does suggest the possibility that dreams collapse space and time, though one could also read that passage where young Nau-Cayuti asks about Mimara as Akka's subconscious interfering with the dream.

Who do you think is manipulating Big Moe and Kellhus? I do think the World has either long ago fated Kellhus to leave Ishual OR is an active agent manipulating events in the present to ensure his ascension to Aspect Emperor.

There may also be "joints" as Bakker puts it, where a person who knows how to read the world and see what might happen if certain choices are made. The D&D Eberron setting used the Draconic Prophecy in that way - I think the creator even described it as akin to a program's if-then statements. So Big Moe might've been able to look at the world with the Cish's Third Sight and use that for the TTT. Perhaps he even saw all the way to Serwa & Lil' Moe going to Isteberenith (sp?) with Sorwell.

The Dûnyain elite, the gods, the world conspires, a deal between Dûnyain and Consult, I don't really have a clue who, to be honest. It just feels upon starting a reread and what I gather from my initial, I get a feeling. We were never told what Kellhus original mission was that was giving to him by the Pragma (or whoever), only that he needs to find his father in Shimeh. Him killing Moe, that was a way in wich to get Cnauir to lead him to the holy war. He even contimplates dropping Cnauir from the cliff, then thinks to himself, he might still have use of him. He say he's a Prince of Atrithua, a lie, lies and lies and lies. Its all just for the benefit of Kellhus. Yea, Kellhus believe he's more than Dûnyain, but what if he is being manipulated? He's the perfect candidate because his intellect and ego wouldn't allow him to think that's even a possibility.

[lokisnow]

Regarding my theory it is relatively simple.

Kellhus has never encountered Sranc before the end of the prologue. He walked for hundreds of miles through highly infested Sranc country without being molested or without even being aware they were nearby within range of his dunyain senses.

Basically, that journey with that caveat is 100% impossible unless his path from Ishual to Leweth was conditioned. This is also the single most dangerous stage of his journey, since he is his most vulnerable, most childlike.

It beggars belief that moe would go to the trouble of summoning Kellhus without making sure he can get through the most dangerous part of his journey.

It also beggars belief that Moe wouldn't take the opportunity to mold Kellhus when he is at his most moldable.

And keep in mind that vulnerable childlike impressionable Kellhus first encounters Leweth, the person who will be crucial to molding his brain patterns about world born people. Leweth, a man thousands of miles from the three seas, who has never traveled more than a day or two away from his home area yet who also has detailed and highly accurate knowledge about the three seas to which Kellhus is traveling, including accurate descriptions of the religious dispositions of the various countries, religions he himself is not a part of. It's all very curious, which suggests Leweth is a plant as well. Within the Leweth sections, Bakker also uses the word incandescence at a certain point, and Kellhus narrates the moment after that Leweth paused as though listening to an unheard voice. Throughout the rest of the book and all four of the additional books, the word incandescent and its various forms is only used in the presence of sorcery. We know Moe can skype, we are deliberately shown it later in the book, so its reasonable to assume that Moe was puppeting or advising Leweth on how to answer Kellhus' questions.

Basically the theory is simple, Moe conditioned Kellhus from the moment he left Ishual, it's only delusional, clueless Kellhus who doesn't know how completely he was controlled and guided.

Interestingly, Kellhus starts thinking about how his path was conditioned only post Serwe. Kellhus decides to join the Inrithi because of her, instead of skirting the steppe side of the mountains and waltzing into Kian from the desert ala Fane, which is the path Cnaiur thought Kellhus would take just before they run into Serwe.

Arguably, Serwe knocks Kellhus off of Moenghus path, and this is also the point that he starts to believe he walks his fathers conditioned ground despite the Serwe path taking him on the longest possible path to Shimeh--a path with no forseeable positive outcome, only death on the circumfix. Moenghus didn't command him to go to Momemn, he commanded him to go to Shimeh, yet when Kellhus starts heading for Momemn he is basically off his father's conditioned ground, ironically that's when he starts thinking he walks conditioned ground. Because Kellhus is an idiot.

Entirely possible. I know lockesnow/bakker had a really well documented theory about Moe planning the entire thing but I'm not sure if it went beyond that to Moe himself being a tool of some other power or not.

Thanks! that gave me the idea to change my Screen name!

I'd expect a revelation like that to be seeded a bit, even abstractly.

viramsata is not seeded one iota, not even abstractly, and is the crucial revelation about what Moe is/has been doing.

And you absolutely could be right. After all, we've been given the explanation of why Moe fucked up. He was doing plenty of things fine until he made the mistake of becoming Cishaurim which was a serious roadblock for a Dunyain because it was the one power angle that a Dunyain would be weaker in rather than stronger in (allegedly).

But lockesnow and others have pointed out the very curious moment in Kyudea where Kellhus clumsily kicks the skull. Is this not some kind of sign from the author? If not, why is it there? If so, what does it mean if not that Kellhus is himself making some major error?

The crucial bit about the skull is the timing. Kellhus makes mistakes during his perspective chapters nonstop throughout the first two books, but since he has such a super inflated delusional view of himself he is never aware of how Cersei-esque he is. In spite of that, he also gets quite a bit right, as well, the skull is positioned in the middle of Kellhus' supervillain monologuing. to me it suggests that he was more or less correct until he literally stumbles. Everything Kellhus asserts after that should be viewed as flawed or flat out wrong conclusions arrived at from faulty assumptions, like trying to find the hypoteneuse of a triangle by using the cubes rather than the squares. What was the point at which Kellhus stumbles? when he describes the cishaurim/skinspy/scarletspires connection and assumes the cishaurim leadership was responsible for sasheoka's assassination. Since moe teleported the assassins into the fortress (or much more simply and less abstractly than overly complicated gnosis multiple inutterals moe simply opened a metaphorical door into their fortress), this is exceptionally wrong, it also means he's got pretty much everything wrong about the cishaurim.

Why?

Damnation.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

@Lockesnow, yours is a really good theory and you offer way more in terms of how it was done. I'm just thinking that Moe messed up by choosing Cishaurim, and Kellhus was sent out to take his place in hope that he would choose the Gnostic. "IF" this is some sort of deal between the Consult and the Dûnyain, they was shadowing Akka from the beginning of the story, and yet never harmed him. What if they wanted to ensure that Kellhus gets the Gnostic so that he would become powerful enough to where he can shut-out the Outside? And I know, the argument to that is well Aurang (while in the Synthese), asks "who are the Dûnyain?". Well I've seen it proposed that Aurang might be isolated and not aware of all the going ons of the Consult. Eh, its just some cooky thoughts I'm cooking up, and seeing what everyone thinks.

[Sci-2]

Well I've seen it proposed that Aurang might be isolated and not aware of all the going ons of the Consult. Eh, its just some cooky thoughts I'm cooking up, and seeing what everyone thinks.

Shae might be the manipulator behind the scenes, especially if the Nonmen are crazy and the Inchie Bros are idiots. If Seswatha can compel loyalty by implanting himself in others, why couldn't Shae do the same? If Big Moe can [c]all to people in their dreams, why can't Shae?

OTOH, Shae seems to be rather busy keeping his soul from flying into damnation.

[lokisnow]

I don't think there's any conspiracy between the dunyain and consult. I think Moenghus could have had Kellhus' path kept clear himself.

Cnaiur is also part of the conditioned path. At Kiyuth, Cnaiur is about to kill Conphas and Martemus, since they're standing over him and think all the bodies around them are dead. Just as he prepares to attack, his body betrays him, he can't move and he sees a vision of Moenghus in his soul's eye. As a result, a broken and bitter Cnaiur with nothing to lose returns to the Utemot just in time to act as Leweth for Kellhus final journey from the Utemot to Shimeh.

[Kalbear]

I have to say that I really hope that Lockesnow's theory is right. It would make the books significantly better.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I don't think there's any conspiracy between the dunyain and consult. I think Moenghus could have had Kellhus' path kept clear himself.

Cnaiur is also part of the conditioned path. At Kiyuth, Cnaiur is about to kill Conphas and Martemus, since they're standing over him and think all the bodies around them are dead. Just as he prepares to attack, his body betrays him, he can't move and he sees a vision of Moenghus in his soul's eye. As a result, a broken and bitter Cnaiur with nothing to lose returns to the Utemot just in time to act as Leweth for Kellhus final journey from the Utemot to Shimeh.

Ha, I just read that part, and never made that connection. You have some awesome points and really have every based covered. I'm going to stick with my theory and during my reread see if I can add anything to it, I will add to it here. I NEED to have my own nerdanel,Lol.

Sci, that makes sense, and what I was hinging this on was that Aurang is out of the loop.

[sologdin]

as suicide is a sin, he needed AK to make him a force ghost so he might become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

[kuenjato]

I have to say that I really hope that Lockesnow's theory is right. It would make the books significantly better.

I disagree (respectfully) -- Moe planning it all out just smacks of authorial fiat, & his return would strike me as a Snidley Whiplash "I've been here all along!" standard-serial-regurgitation. I prefer messier circumstances for the same reason I don't much care for conspiracy theory: it boils down too many complex competing factors to simplistic solutions.

There's lots of holes in lock's theory, interesting as it is. I'd be terribly disappointed if this turns out to be the case.

[Sci-2]

I think Big Moe planned further than Kellhus or the reader can see, but not so far as to cheat death. We assume Big Moe is still Dunyain, but he may have become more Cish in the end. The implication is that his lack of passion and his lack of Water are indications that he could not grasp the Whole.

Yet the traditional picture of Enlightenment is that the soul aligns with the higher Self, the Brahman, and is freed from being blown to and fro by emotions. A surrendering of earthly power could mean Big Moe is more Cish than others.

As for him working his mojo from the Outside, I doubt it. If Lockesnow is right and Cish evade damnation, I suspect it is because their apprehension of the Whole merges them with God. (The mistake of the Nonmen was to try and walk into Oblivion, which results in too much association with the individuated consciousness instead of the Whole/Brahman/God.)

[Kalbear]

But to play devils' advocate at bit, what would Moe's endgame be in this scenario?

Who says it's Moe's endgame? Why wouldn't it be the Dunyain's endgame?

I'll go one step further than Lockesnow and deal with the messy 'but Moe was alive all this time' shenanigans. Let's assume that Moe is also walking something of conditioned ground - either he is part of it or is being as conditioned as Kellhus. The Dunyain are striving towards the absolute. They have a plan that involves the entire set of the three seas united against the Consult with some outcome that they want. Perhaps that is part of the false war that is mentioned by Kellhus. Perhaps that is their goal. It doesn't end up mattering. The Dunyain have figured it out.

Kellhus and Moenghus are not the end results of the Dunyain. They have been bred and conditioned for their roles. Kellhus has not removed the parts that would believe in a God speaking to him - the parts that are mad. Moe has, but has not been given enough information about the world (such as the Cish). The rest of the Dunyain do not have these limitations. Or at least the leaders do not. They know what they need. They understand the Thousandfold thought and are the true architects of it - and see past it and what it will require. The war against the Consult is but one aspect of this and has been for thousands of years.

For true crackpot speculation, let's say that the Consult has been manipulated by the Dunyain for this long as well. You think it's coincidence that Mek shows up to talk with Kellhus when he first comes out of Ishual? It's not coincidence. It's not happenstance. It's predetermined by the Dunyain. The Consult have been manipulated into creating spies that can be detected by Dunyain. They've been manipulated into trying to create their No-God again. The Dunyain know that the Consult were on to something - but they've moved past that level of metaphysics. They've figured out that some how, creating the No-God is key to achieving the self-moving soul. Perhaps sealing off the world is part of that too - or perhaps it's something like diverting the souls to that one true soul. I'm not sure.

But that is why the gods war against Kellhus - because Kellhus' real goal (one he doesn't understand) is to wipe out the existing pantheon. He is not an agent of God - he is conditioned.

So Moe can be dead. That's fine. That doesn't make anything of what lockesnow said ring false.

[Hello World]

Cnaiur is also part of the conditioned path. At Kiyuth, Cnaiur is about to kill Conphas and Martemus, since they're standing over him and think all the bodies around them are dead. Just as he prepares to attack, his body betrays him, he can't move and he sees a vision of Moenghus in his soul's eye. As a result, a broken and bitter Cnaiur with nothing to lose returns to the Utemot just in time to act as Leweth for Kellhus final journey from the Utemot to Shimeh.

Also, before Cnaiur faints after the battle, he buries his chorae underground IIRC, and when he later wakes up there is some rushing water and mysteriously the first thought that comes to him is of his Chorae. In the prologue the dreams that Moe sent were witnessed in cataracts (waterfalls) of detail. Point is that the rushing water and the thought of the Chorae might have been Moenghus magic.

This happened several times with Cnaiur. Another notable instance is when Kellhus tell him to remember the secret of battle and later he wakes up to “rain and whispers” and says that in his sleep visions of “Dunyain words” plagued him, and he suddenly remembers the secret of battle.

[Kalbear]

Another crackpot: The Dunyain system (and their predetermination and conditioned ground) are there in the same way the Judging Eye is always in present - because the Dunyain are how the Solitary God comes about. And when it comes about, it exists in all time forever, freezing the many possibilities that could exist and instead bring it entirely to existence, everywhere. So of course the Dunyain walk conditioned ground. This is the only way that things could possibly have happened.

[Anatúrinbor]

I agree TTT is much older than either Kellhus or Moenghus. But if I had to make a guess I'd say that it's true architect was either Seswatha or Nil'giccas, or both (since Nil met with Seswatha before the Apoalypse and told him about the No-God and the Inchoroi.) My crackpot is that Nil also told Seswatha about the IF, just as he told Titirga. Seswatha then snuck into Golgotterath and saw his damnation.

Later, Seswatha, or the two of them cook up the whole Dunyain, Mandate, Cishaurim, or the Three Foundations that will come together two thousand years later to maybe seal the world from the outside and end damnation or something else.

[Hello World]

I’m starting to think that the Seswatha-Ishuäl connection might just be a red-herring. One line that I noticed recently is when Celmomas tells Seswatha that he intends to fill Ishual with ‘seeds’. For some reason that line gave me shivers... I’m almost certain that there’s some literal meaning behind it.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I agree TTT is much older than either Kellhus or Moenghus. But if I had to make a guess I'd say that it's true architect was either Seswatha or Nil'giccas, or both (since Nil met with Seswatha before the Apoalypse and told him about the No-God and the Inchoroi.) My crackpot is that Nil also told Seswatha about the IF, just as he told Titirga. Seswatha then snuck into Golgotterath and saw his damnation.Later, Seswatha, or the two of them cook up the whole Dunyain, Mandate, Cishaurim, or the Three Foundations that will come together two thousand years later to maybe seal the world from the outside and end damnation or something else.

I like it! And it goes along with what I think, that Moe and Kellhus are both being manipulated by someone else. Consult and Dûnyain collaboration is what came to mind, but there remains many possibilities.

[lokisnow]

I have joined the Moe is alive nerdanel before, but I've never liked it. I'm perfectly okay with Moe being dead. I think Moe was okay with being killed.

In terms of bringing Kellhus to Shimeh what was Moe's endgame? It was for Kellhus to step into his position and for Kellhus to seem like a Latter-Fane, coming out of the desert to lead the Kianene against the Inrithi. Moenghus then has his two sons in control of the rival factions, Maithanet leads the Inrithi religion, Kellhus leads the Kianene. as Moenghus asserts, they then create a new virimsata a unifying religion.

“In the end, at a great ceremony, it is the most compelling tale that is declared Pirvirsut, a word that means ‘this breath is ground’ in ancient Vaparsi. The weak, the inelegant, have died, while others grow strong, yielding only to the Pirvirsut, the Breath-that-is-Ground.

“Do you see? The viramsata, they become living things, and we are their battle plain.”

Kellhus nodded. “Like Inrithism and Fanimry.”

“Precisely. Lies that have conquered and reproduced over the centuries. Delusional world views that have divided the world between them. They are twin viramsata that even now war through shouts and limbs of men. Two great thoughtless beasts that take the souls of Men as their ground.”

“And the Thousandfold Thought?”

Moënghus turned to him, as precisely as if he could see. “An instigator that goads them, that bleeds them even as we speak. A formula of events that will rewrite the very course of history. A great transition rule that will see Inrithism and Fanimry transformed. The Thousandfold Thought is all these things.

“Beliefs beget action, Kellhus. If Men are to survive the dark years to come, they must all act of one accord. So long as there are Inrithi and Fanim, this will not be possible. They must yield before a new delusion, a new Breath-that-is-Ground. All souls must be rewritten … There is no other way.”

Note, Fanimry may be a delusion, but the Cishaurim may still well be a vector to avoid damnation, we don't know enough about either to know the metaphysics, but I don't think that Moenghus made a mistake in becoming Cishaurim.

[kuenjato]

Who says it's Moe's endgame? Why wouldn't it be the Dunyain's endgame?

I'll go one step further than Lockesnow and deal with the messy 'but Moe was alive all this time' shenanigans. Let's assume that Moe is also walking something of conditioned ground - either he is part of it or is being as conditioned as Kellhus. The Dunyain are striving towards the absolute. They have a plan that involves the entire set of the three seas united against the Consult with some outcome that they want. Perhaps that is part of the false war that is mentioned by Kellhus. Perhaps that is their goal. It doesn't end up mattering. The Dunyain have figured it out.

Kellhus and Moenghus are not the end results of the Dunyain. They have been bred and conditioned for their roles. Kellhus has not removed the parts that would believe in a God speaking to him - the parts that are mad. Moe has, but has not been given enough information about the world (such as the Cish). The rest of the Dunyain do not have these limitations. Or at least the leaders do not. They know what they need. They understand the Thousandfold thought and are the true architects of it - and see past it and what it will require. The war against the Consult is but one aspect of this and has been for thousands of years.

For true crackpot speculation, let's say that the Consult has been manipulated by the Dunyain for this long as well. You think it's coincidence that Mek shows up to talk with Kellhus when he first comes out of Ishual? It's not coincidence. It's not happenstance. It's predetermined by the Dunyain. The Consult have been manipulated into creating spies that can be detected by Dunyain. They've been manipulated into trying to create their No-God again. The Dunyain know that the Consult were on to something - but they've moved past that level of metaphysics. They've figured out that some how, creating the No-God is key to achieving the self-moving soul. Perhaps sealing off the world is part of that too - or perhaps it's something like diverting the souls to that one true soul. I'm not sure.

But that is why the gods war against Kellhus - because Kellhus' real goal (one he doesn't understand) is to wipe out the existing pantheon. He is not an agent of God - he is conditioned.

So Moe can be dead. That's fine. That doesn't make anything of what lockesnow said ring false.

Good points. You described better than I why the "Moe still alive" theory bugs me -- I like (my assumption) that, despite their arrogance about perceiving 'that which comes before,' both Kelly and Moe are still conditioned and thus vulnerable by their experiences outside Ishual, by the mere fact of entering, acting and reacting to the messier circumstances of the world.

edit: If Moe does have a long-con, I wouldn't mind that so much, as there are enough possibilities sown in (particularly the enigma that is Meppa, and that skull-stumble moment, which is interesting and a nice catch--)... I'm just conditioned myself to the perceived end of TTT, where despite Moe's ability, he's still brought down by circumstances he cannot control (Kelly's 'madness') & his own mistakes.

That earlier comment about Kelly making the mistake to choose the gnosis rather than the water is a cool inversion. I hope TUC gives us more insight as to the mechanics of sorcery.