Possible Crackpot: Did Aerys foresee Jon's birth? TWoIaF edition

[Ser Leftwich]

Another idea that isn't mine (all credit to Ser Leftwich and J. Stargaryen), but that I saw, loved and thought needed more widespread attention.

We know that least some Targaryens have prophetic dragon dreams, and that in at least some (maybe even all ...) of these cases, the dragons in question are metaphorical/symbolic, not literal. It's possible for the dreamer to recognize the symbolism and maybe even apply that symbolism to himself or herself.

As J. Stargaryen pointed out, look at the exchange between Daeron and Dunk in The Mystery Knight.

Daeron saying, "I don't care to die today" implies that he recognizes the possibility that 1. a dragon could (does?) mean a Targaryen and 2. it might even mean him.

Now fast forward to Aerys. (ETA: From here on out, this is Ser Leftwich's line of thinking.) We're told he thought that if he destroyed the city, he would rise out of it as a dragon, an actual dragon. Obviously this makes him nuttier than squirrel poo, but what made him think this? Where did he get this idea, this inspiration? It's a fairly specific, in-order idea: Destroy the city first, and a dragon hatches.

What if Aerys had a prophetic dream of a dragon hatching out of the ruins of the city, and applied that dream to himself? Rather than Daeron's metaphorical interpretation, Aerys chooses to apply it literally and, given his apparent obsession with dragon imagery and blood purity, believes his dream is in reference to him? That gives him both the inspiration and motive to attempt to burn the city down, if he thought that it was going to happen or that it needed to happen in order to be reborn as a dragon.

Obviously Aerys wasn't reborn as a dragon, and the city didn't succumb to wildfire, but it was heavily damaged by the Sack and the human toll was obviously immense. We know that Jon's birth is timed to around the time of the Sack to fairly soon after it. What if Aerys did have some prophetic vision, but that rather than wildfire and himself, it was the Sack he saw, and Jon's birth, which closely followed it? Jon's birth already fits another "dragon hatching/waking" parameter: "Two kings to wake the dragon." Aerys died, and then Aegon died, and then Jon was born.

Obviously with this you have to look at an outcome and work backward based on what happened. It's the same sort of thinking that's applied to surmise that Rhaegar is the dragon that hatched at Summerhall and that perhaps Aegon V and/or Duncan the Small killed themselves trying to fulfill a prophecy that they might not have ever had pegged correctly. We also have people in D&E interpreting dragon dreams incorrectly: Daemon II thinks he'll hatch a real dragon at Whitewalls, and it's actually Egg coming of age; Daeron recognizes that his dragon dream might be metaphorical, but never pegs it to mean Baelor Breakspear. If Aerys is acting out based on some dragon-themed thing, does it not make sense that he could be acting on something he saw in a dream? And might it not equally make sense, given how similar dreams have unfolded in the past, that he was wrong (which would be obvious given what happened) and the vision came to pass in some other way?

A thought to do with the new info about Egg's dreams and Summerhall.

Perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna went on a bit of a tour/hiding in a few safe places. Not just a slap-dash all out run to the ToJ.

Rhaegar would want to show Lyanna the beautiful sad place of his birth, Summerhall is not that far out of the way, if the eventual destination is Starfall. Lyanna gets pregnant at Summerhall, then they also stop at the ToJ for a bit and that is where her pregnancy starts to show/she realizes. They decide to wait it out there.

It becomes significant if Jon was conceived at Summerhall.

[aryagonnakill#2]

It seems plausible that he could have foreseen the birth, but I don't think that really effects the plot. I also don't think birthing a Targ requires any sort of sacrifice. Danaerys is a dragon if any person is and the only person who could have been considered a sacrifice is her mother, which Jon also had, so there's really no reason imo to think that Jons birth required Aerys and Aegon to die as well.

[Black Jack]

This is why I read these boards !!

[Ser Leftwich]

Also, here is a link to the original discussion:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102089-possible-crackpot-did-aerys-foresee-jons-birth/

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Come Lyanna, lets get it on in this charred ruin. Think of the poetry of it! After, I'll sing us a mournful tune, and perhaps cry.

Sounds like Rhaegar.

[the conquering bastard 25]

I think that the OP is talking about the Prince that was Promised not just a regular Targ.

Yet to give the Op their dues. I have thought something like this as well. Aerys captivity at Duskendale reminded me of Bloodraven's time in the Black cells. Where I'm thinking with all that time in isolation and in the dark similar to the caves where Bran would find him is where he first really got in tune with his gift. What I mean I know that he was pretty impressive before his imprisonment. But with all that extra time to know hone and focus his gift his where he got the inspiration to get Eggs as King, the marriage between both Eggs that would tie house Stark to the Targs through the Blackwood marriage. Where more than likely he saw the Stark Children and all of the things they would do if things played out right. Like a lord of house Stark taking a Blackwood for a bride(to help strenghten the magic in the Stark bloodline) Did anyone ever notice that most of the main characters parents(Ned's generation I mean as parents so Ned's parents) all married their cousins? Rickard Stark wed his cousin, Jon Arryn wed his cousin(even though she died giving him an heir I think), Tywin and his cousin wed to get Cersei and Jamie(Tyrion is still up for debate.) The only case that this is broken is with the Baratheons, but as Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen. Then think about this maybe Estermont was choosen for Steffon because of House Tarth and their connection to the Targaryens and this was one of the Estermont's parents. I think these main houses were doubling up on their dragon blood. Each of these houses has a drop of dragon blood even the starks though the Blackwood marriage. How you might ask?

Remember from the PATQ and Daemon and his fight at Harrenhal against Aemond Hightower Targaryen? Well with him was his pregnant paramour Alys Rivers(ever wonder which house she was from, we find out in the world book that Alys Blackwood held some sway at court after the war of the Dragons was over. More than likely as for the help and devistation that house Blackwood faced fighting for the Queen Aegon's regents made her and her child legit. This said child's descendents more than likely wed back into the main branch of the house. So when Aegon IV gets with Missy Blackwood, and produces Bloodraven making him have dragon blood on both sides of the family tree. So when the Blackwoods wed into the Stark's family about the same generation as bloodraven's birth they get a dose of Dragon's blood. Then again when Bloodraven arranges the marriage between Blackwood and Stark. That't not the only source. From the Royces(both major and junior branches) have more than likely wed into house Arryn since the Dragonlords made Westeros their bitch. Ever wonder why Daemon Tarygaryen the Rogue Prince himself wed into house Royce(more than likely they got some dragon blood from the Arryns who definitely have dragon blood as GRRM states that every Targ has Arryn blood and the vise versa is true.

Moving forward, while Aerys was captive he more than likely started to experince these dream about a dragon and it being birthed. I wouldn't be surprised if Bloodraven himself wasn't some how pulling some dream strings and showing Aerys what he had to do or what aerys thought he was being shown. I do think it strange that Jon was born either on the day that KL fell or shortly after. Given the sky at The Tower of Joy and how in Ned's dream it seems as if the sky is bleeding (falling stars maybe? or an eclips? some astrological event happened when Jon Snow was born in the mountain of Dorne or so it seems.) Also given all the Targ blood spilt and the magic going on at Summerhall it's not surprising that Rhaella and Aerys were somehow magically changed themselves. Think about all the stillbirths and miscarriages that Rhaella had, if it wasn't poison on Tywin's part then maybe it was the magic at the event that made Rhaella unable to have children for some time kind of like Dany and her miscarriage in the Dothroki sea, in Dance.

Then there were all the Targs and Starks that died during and after Summerhall. 2 'kings' at summerhall Aegon and Heir even if he was disinherited, Brandon and Rickon(so long as each dies as a king) Which more than likely started the whole ritual only to be finished when Rheagar, Aerys and Aegon all died. Rheanys as well as she could have died after Aerys but before Aegon making her queen for something like 2 mins but I would think it still counts if it counts with Rickard and Brandons' deaths.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It seems plausible that he could have foreseen the birth, but I don't think that really effects the plot. I also don't think birthing a Targ requires any sort of sacrifice. Danaerys is a dragon if any person is and the only person who could have been considered a sacrifice is her mother, which Jon also had, so there's really no reason imo to think that Jons birth required Aerys and Aegon to die as well.

The Aerys and Aegon point is in regards to the "two kings to wake the dragon" thing, not the birth of any generic Targaryen. The idea being that "the dragon" is TPTWP or someone of heightened significance.

[Moondancer]

The dragon Daeron dreamed dead is Baelor. This implies that Daeron sensed a way how to interpret his dreams - correctly I'd say.

He dreams of a dead dragon, and connects himself (a Targ) to it, hence - I don't want to die today.

In the moment prior to meeting with Dunk, the dream came to him in full, more detailed form - Dunk being present and alive after the dragon died.

However, I don't know if Daeron's dreams refer to the prophecies/arcane lore Aerys read. It could be (I strongly suspect so) that they all mixed those in together; Aerys and Daeron, Egg and Aemon and lastly Rhaegar, following the united idea.

I think they assimilated AA and the returning dragons and, in fact, they could be two separate (if equally important) stories.

Daeron dreamed of Dany and Aerys read about AA.

[Mithras]

The dragon Daeron dreamed can hardly be explained as a literal dragon. Even a drunk can see that because they were going to participate in a trial by combat involving Dunk.

This does not mean that Daeron thought that all of his dragon dreams were metaphorical or the dragons in his dreams were actually Targaryens.

[jet199]

Aerys saw a dragon being born out of the ashes of King's Landing. However he failed to actually burn the city down. My feeling is that the dragon Aerys saw is yet to be born/revealed. Cersei will probably be the one to blow King's Landing sky high and an unknown Targ will turn up during or after that happening. Jon could come south by then but it could also be Dany, Aegon or someone unexpected.

[Mithras]

If so, who will fulfill Aerion's vision?

[J. Stargaryen]

Aerys saw a dragon being born out of the ashes of King's Landing. However he failed to actually burn the city down. My feeling is that the dragon Aerys saw is yet to be born/revealed. Cersei will probably be the one to blow King's Landing sky high and an unknown Targ will turn up during or after that happening. Jon could come south by then but it could also be Dany, Aegon or someone unexpected.

One idea I had was that Aerys II misinterpreted the ruin of his House as the ruin of his house; i.e., the Red Keep. In other words, Aerys saw something like the Red Keep being destroyed, but didn't realize this vision symbolized the destruction of House Targaryen.

[complexphoenix]

If so, who will fulfill Aerion's vision?

Which vision was this?

[Mithras]

Which vision was this?

That he will transform into a dragon.

[Moondancer]

That he will transform into a dragon.

"...but the gods were kind and it turned him into a corpse."

:lmao:

From the same passage -

The Prince Who Thought He Was a Dragon was one of Old Nans more gruesome tales. His little brother Bran had loved it.

Old Nan rocking Targ history like nobody's business. :)

[jet199]

If so, who will fulfill Aerion's vision?

I think his child probably has already. It wouldn't surprise me if Aerion died as his son was being born.

Either that or some Targ proved themselves when he drank the wild fire by rescuing others.

[The Twinslayer]

Interesting idea. Aerys had a dream that if he lit up some wildfire in King's Landing, a dragon would be born.

I have trouble seeing a connection to Jon, however. First, the "metaphorical" dragon dreams that happened during D&E (when dragons were extinct) were location specific: one at Ashford and one at Whitewalls. But so far as we know, Jon has never been near King's Landing. Assuming R+L=J, Lyanna may not have been anywhere near King's Landing either. Rhaegar had spent time there, but he lived at Dragonstone. And Jon would have been born at the TOJ.

There is, however, another candidate. On the night Dany was conceived, Aerys lit up some wildfire to burn Lord Chelstead. That inspired his notorious visit to Rhaella that resulted in Dany's conception. So in a sense, Dany sprang from the wildfire Aerys lit in King's Landing.

That said, I don't accept that all dragon dreams are metaphorical, because the D&E dreams happened when there were no dragons yet Dany dreams about dragons and then hatches some. So, burning Chelstead led to conceiving Dany which led to hatching dragons out of stone (eggs). If Aerys had a dream about lighting up some wilfire in King's Landing leading to the birth of a dragon, the other option is that the dragon dream was Dany's three dragons. In which case, to the extent two dead kings are needed, the two dead kings are Aerys and Viserys (i.e., Aegon was never king, since TWOIAF confirms that Viserys came before Rhaegar's children in the line of succession).

[Ser Leftwich]

Interesting idea. Aerys had a dream that if he lit up some wildfire in King's Landing, a dragon would be born.

I have trouble seeing a connection to Jon, however. First, the "metaphorical" dragon dreams that happened during D&E (when dragons were extinct) were location specific: one at Ashford and one at Whitewalls. But so far as we know, Jon has never been near King's Landing. Assuming R+L=J, Lyanna may not have been anywhere near King's Landing either. Rhaegar had spent time there, but he lived at Dragonstone. And Jon would have been born at the TOJ.

There is, however, another candidate. On the night Dany was conceived, Aerys lit up some wildfire to burn Lord Chelstead. That inspired his notorious visit to Rhaella that resulted in Dany's conception. So in a sense, Dany sprang from the wildfire Aerys lit in King's Landing.

The connection of Chelsted in the flames and Dany is something to think about. Along with the "Ruin of his house" idea above from J. Stargaryen.

One problem is 'where would we readers learn about this', the only real candidate is Jaime.

[DreamSongs]

Depends on where Jaime ends up. I can see him going North or South from the Riverlands.

At least he tends to be a reliable POV.