Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I have seen a ton of posts about possible 'other' dragons in Westeros. Cannibal hiding in a cave, Sheepstealer still alive in Bay of Crabs, dragons sleeping for centuries under Winterfell, etc...... This cannot possibly be true if we look at the writing from Game of Thrones...... Everyone quickly forgets that dragons have been extinct for 150 years. Same thing with the direwolves, not that they were extinct but they have been absent for years. Magic has been gone from Planteos for decades, and now it's back. This is a major theme in the books, no way it will just be cast aside, GOT Chapter 1, "Direwolves loose in the realm after so many years, I like it not." --Jory "They were the last of the Targaryen dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long." Tyrion GOT Then there is this clencher statement, which is not even from Dany's POV, but switched to an omnipotent POV for this one paragraph at the very end of GOT, and I think it goes without saying that whatever the omnipotent narrator such as this says, is canon. "As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons." I doubt GRRM will just casually forget everything we have previously been told about dragons and all-of-a-sudden have one hiding in Winterfell. That is wishful fanfic and nothing more. Discuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I agree that there aren't any other dragons left, but the "hundreds of years" statement was IMO from a Dany POV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 I agree that there aren't any other dragons left, but the "hundreds of years" statement was IMO from a Dany POV. I don't recall her referring to herself in her full name like that previously. It's like someone else is taking over the POV for a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Given how GRRM has already discussed "unreliable narrators" this could be taken as that. The last dragon died 150 years ago roughly, so "hundreds of years" is a stretch no matter how you put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 She wouldn't refer to herself as 'her', nor do i recall her referring to herself in her full name like that previously. It's like someone else is taking over the POV for a minute. We actually have an example of a limited-omnipotent change, which is the last page of The Iron Suitor. It's clearly noticeable there, and reads completely differently to here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Even if taken literally, it just means that any other dragons had not filled the night with music for hundreds of years. Meaning they could have been hibernating during this time, which would tie in with Bran's vision of dragons stirring in Ashai. Or it could have been a lone, reclusive dragon like Cannibal who did not have any other dragon nearby to make "music" with. There are a few ways around the statement used as proof by the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 We actually have an example of a limited-omnipotent change, which is the last page of The Iron Suitor. It's clearly noticeable there, and reads completely differently to here. I'm checking......... ETA......"Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester. "That one. Cut his throat and throw him into the sea, and the winds will favor us all the way to Meereen." Moqorro had seen that in his fires. He had seen the wench wed too, but what of it? She would not be the first woman Victarion Greyjoy had made a widow." Ok these paragraphs read exactly the same to me. It's like there is a camera looking down on the scene as it is described, both use the characters full-name, which is different from the norm......Thanks for pointing that out, I think it backs up my OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Even if taken literally, it just means that any other dragons had not filled the night with music for hundreds of years. Meaning they could have been hibernating during this time, which would tie in with Bran's vision of dragons stirring in Ashai. Or it could have been a lone, reclusive dragon like Cannibal who did not have any other dragon nearby to make "music" with. There are a few ways around the statement used as proof by the OP. Exactly, fanfic. Why would GRRM want to backtrack across everything he had previously established? Dragons have been extinct, magic has been gone from the world. Confirmed by Mel and Thoros as well. I see no reason to erase everything we know about dragons and magic up til the end of book 5....What would be the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I'm checking......... ETA......"Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester. "That one. Cut his throat and throw him into the sea, and the winds will favor us all the way to Meereen." Moqorro had seen that in his fires. He had seen the wench wed too, but what of it? She would not be the first woman Victarion Greyjoy had made a widow." Ok these paragraphs read exactly the same to me. It's like there is a camera looking down on the scene as it is described, both use the characters full-name, which is different from the norm......Thanks for pointing that out, I think it backs up my OP.I think we have different books. I meant the paragraph immediately preceding that, where GRRM changes POVs so we can't learn what Moqorro is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archmaester Drew Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Dragons are not exclusive to Targaryen or even Valyrian dragons. Other dragons have been recorded in the histories of many regions before the Valyrian Freehold, including in Westeros. The accepted history of Westeros is that there are no more dragons after Aegon III, but this is not absolute. There could be dragons, or at least eggs, in many places (Asshai, Winterfell, Dragonstone, Summerhall, Valyria, etc. ...). :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 "The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain's cabin, laughter deep and dark and made... Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 I think we have different books. I meant the paragraph immediately preceding that, where GRRM changes POVs so we can't learn what Moqorro is doing. Nope we have the same books, I just thought you meant the last paragraph, sorry, you meant the last 2 paragraphs. The one that begins "The iron captain was not seen again that day...." How is that different from the Dany paragraph? It is her being described by someone else, and not herself. Same as Victarion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Bran saw dragons beyond asshai in his crash dream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I think there are dragons in asshai but we won't ever meet them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Dragons are not exclusive to Targaryen or even Valyrian dragons. Other dragons have been recorded in the histories of many regions before the Valyrian Freehold, including in Westeros. The accepted history of Westeros is that there are no more dragons after Aegon III, but this is not absolute. There could be dragons, or at least eggs, in many places (Asshai, Winterfell, Dragonstone, Summerhall, Valyria, etc. ...). :)Definitely all that is true, but it is also true that dragons have been extinct for 150 years, the last ones died decrepit, no bigger than a mastiff, Obviously there are eggs, Illyrio gave three to Dany prior to them hatching.Bran saw dragons beyond asshai in his crash dreamYes he also saw a raven with three eyes. No such raven actually exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Exactly, fanfic. Why would GRRM want to backtrack across everything he had previously established? Dragons have been extinct, magic has been gone from the world. Confirmed by Mel and Thoros as well. I see no reason to erase everything we know about dragons and magic up til the end of book 5....What would be the point? Not true. Bloodraven was doing his magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Rock Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I recall ice dragons being mentioned in TWoIaF. Apparently there's a possibility of dragons living in the Shadow Lands, beyond Asshai. There's also the possibility of dragons living in volcanoes elsewhere in the world. Will we ever see any? Probably not, but it's fun to speculate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Not true. Bloodraven was doing his magic. The characters have said magic is gone from the world, like Mel and thoros, that's what I meant, same thing as the pyromancers, all-of a sudden their magic is stronger since GOT. Didnt the firemages in Qarth even say something about their magic getting stronger as well? Ill have to look. Plus the WW's have started coming back in force after a long time, fire and ice magic has been steadily getting stronger. I guess that does not include wargs and greenseers, as we know that they have all had their power the entire time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archmaester Drew Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Magic is not gone from the world, but it has ebbed. The firemage in Qaarth, for example, could still achieve some effects but with 'the return of the dragons' his power increased (whether the dragons caused the increase in the magic or is just correlated is not clear, however). :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Dragons have disappeared from Westeros and those parts of Essos that we've encountered in the main series. After reading TWOIAF, I doubt if they've disappeared from the entire world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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